[ansible]

House of Chains, Tor MMPB, p.739 said:

It was said the captain's adopted child - who at that time was known by the unfortunate name of Grub - refused the wagon on the march. That he walked the entire way, even as, in the first week beneath the year's hottest sun, fit and hale soldiers stumbled and fell.

This is perhaps invention, for by all accounts he was at that time no more than five years of age. And the captain himself, from whose journals much of that journey and the clash in which it culminated is related in detail, writes very little of Grub , more concerned as he was with the rigours of command. As a result, of the future First Sword of the Late Empire period, scant details, beyond the legendary and probably fictitious, are known.

Lives of the Three
Moragalle

This is the passage where we find out that Grub eventually becomes the First Sword. Two questions here.

1) This from a book or history called "Lives of the Three"; do we know or suspect who the other two are? I would guess they are all important to the Empire at the same time, else why write about them together? I think they are Grub, Nil, and Nether, due to this quote:

House of Chains, Tor MMPB, p.951 said:

[Gamet] saw three figures ahead, standing at the ridge, and thought nothing strange as to their presence. They are what will come. These three.

Nil. Nether. The lad, Grub.

This is after Gamet has died and just before he joins Raraku's ghosts in the attack. The foreshadowing seems deliberate, as does the wording. Not sure if this is confirmed elsewhere, just thought it was an interesting connection.

2) First Sword of the Late Empire period? Do we know the significance of this wording? Does this mean the Malazan Empire will come to an end soon? Assuming Grub doesn't live a ridiculously long time, this seems to imply the Empire's demise within a hundred years or so. Any other references to this?

A very cool passage, to reveal so much of the future.

This post has been edited by ansible: 18 August 2010 - 03:06 AM

[Aptorian]

There are things you will learn about Grub in later books that will perhaps clear up some of the potential of the young boy.

[Mischiefs' Folly]

Aptorian, on 18 August 2010 - 03:58 AM, said:

There are things you will learn about Grub in later books that will perhaps clear up some of the potential of the young boy.

Indeed!

[Silk]

there is also one other who could be one of the three ...... I personally doubt that the wickan element is included in the late Malazan Period.....

[Tattersail_]

I really like this and you could discuss it in more detail. now if you do not think Nil and Nether fit then who else could the other 2 be. The first 3 would be Kellanved, Dancer and Dassem. So therefore the three would be similar wouldn't it? I only suggest this, as we know that Grub is First Sword. So who else do you think they could be? Could one be

Spoiler

Sinn? As assassin or High Magus?

if this is so I cannot imagine who emperor would be!

[Tattersail_]

I also think this will be tied up in either ICE's books or even any later books by SE. I Imagine also that Karsa may have something to do with the late empire period

[Silk]

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 09:37 AM, said:

I really like this and you could discuss it in more detail. now if you do not think Nil and Nether fit then who else could the other 2 be. The first 3 would be Kellanved, Dancer and Dassem. So therefore the three would be similar wouldn't it? I only suggest this, as we know that Grub is First Sword. So who else do you think they could be? Could one be

Spoiler

Sinn? As assassin or High Magus?

if this is so I cannot imagine who emperor would be!

In order to explain this its probably easier to break the original 3 into the following categories... (very broad)

Leader, Enforcer, Protector
Kel, Das, Dancer

The one that I think fits into the Protector category may well be

Spoiler

Sinn as she is in essence a creation of various forces which she discusses with Grub in the new warrens i.e her first creation was by Kalam and then by the fire elemental in Y'ghatan

Grub would be enforcer type i.e muscle and brains from all he learnt on the COD as well as

Spoiler

the extra power ups from being the joint *healer* of the new warrens (or joint first High Magus)

As for the leader ... well I'm going out on a limb

Spoiler

Tavore as she is not all that old and I personally feel that Laseen knew that her time was up and the last throw of the dice was to get Tavore out of Malaz with an army dedicated to her and I think she kind of expected Kalam to provide the escort despite her offer for him to take leadership of the claw and his doing so proved to her that Tavore could inspire some form of loyalty from her underlings. There is also the vision in BH with Tavore standing and the flames behind her and not sure exactly who it was said that was the future ... the world in flames with Tavore at the lead

Once again this is a personal view point and may be prooved completely wrong in the future

This post has been edited by Silk: 18 August 2010 - 01:31 PM

[Tattersail_]

Silk, on 18 August 2010 - 01:31 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 09:37 AM, said:

I really like this and you could discuss it in more detail. now if you do not think Nil and Nether fit then who else could the other 2 be. The first 3 would be Kellanved, Dancer and Dassem. So therefore the three would be similar wouldn't it? I only suggest this, as we know that Grub is First Sword. So who else do you think they could be? Could one be

Spoiler

Sinn? As assassin or High Magus?

if this is so I cannot imagine who emperor would be!

In order to explain this its probably easier to break the original 3 into the following categories... (very broad)

Leader, Enforcer, Protector
Kel, Das, Dancer

The one that I think fits into the Protector category may well be

Spoiler

Sinn as she is in essence a creation of various forces which she discusses with Grub in the new warrens i.e her first creation was by Kalam and then by the fire elemental in Y'ghatan

Grub would be enforcer type i.e muscle and brains from all he learnt on the COD as well as

Spoiler

the extra power ups from being the joint *healer* of the new warrens (or joint first High Magus)

As for the leader ... well I'm going out on a limb

Spoiler

Tavore as she is not all that old and I personally feel that Laseen knew that her time was up and the last throw of the dice was to get Tavore out of Malaz with an army dedicated to her and I think she kind of expected Kalam to provide the escort despite her offer for him to take leadership of the claw and his doing so proved to her that Tavore could inspire some form of loyalty from her underlings. There is also the vision in BH with Tavore standing and the flames behind her and not sure exactly who it was said that was the future ... the world in flames with Tavore at the lead

Once again this is a personal view point and may be prooved completely wrong in the future

I really like this idea, although if we could imagine it then it probably wouldn't happy as SE makes the unthinkable happen.

Spoiler

Tavore could die in TCG for all we know, if she survives, with an army you could be right

although give 5 others you'd think could be emperor/empress mine would be:

Spoiler

Fiddler, Keneb(i forgot if he is dead or not), Quick Ben, Bottle or even Lostara Yil. people that would make Sinn and Grub welcome.

[ansible]

My questions are not really about Grub, my memory is sketchy but I've read through DoD and I don't recall anything about him that sheds light on these subjects. I was more interested in who the other two of the three could be and whether or not we have more info about the future state of the Empire.

One of the two could definitely be

Spoiler

Sinn.

The reason I suggested Nil and Nether was the proximity of that Gamet quote. If it's not Nil and Nether, then SE seems to be talking out of his ass from Gamet's POV, unless he simply means they are children and therefore will be the future, which seems inane for Erikson.

As far as Tattersail being over 200, I honestly think that's an anomaly and a semi-GotMism. I can't recall any other subject of the Malazan Empire being so old, not even Kellanved; for that matter, how many humans have even lived that long (without Ascending)? The only characters who are that long-lived are either gods/Ascendants or Elder Races (or Kallor, but he's cursed and alchemical). But my memory may be faulty here, if so correct me.

[Tattersail_]

ansible, on 18 August 2010 - 03:24 PM, said:

My questions are not really about Grub, my memory is sketchy but I've read through DoD and I don't recall anything about him that sheds light on these subjects. I was more interested in who the other two of the three could be and whether or not we have more info about the future state of the Empire.

One of the two could definitely be

Spoiler

Sinn.

The reason I suggested Nil and Nether was the proximity of that Gamet quote. If it's not Nil and Nether, then SE seems to be talking out of his ass from Gamet's POV, unless he simply means they are children and therefore will be the future, which seems inane for Erikson.

As far as Tattersail being over 200, I honestly think that's an anomaly and a semi-GotMism. I can't recall any other subject of the Malazan Empire being so old, not even Kellanved; for that matter, how many humans have even lived that long (without Ascending)? The only characters who are that long-lived are either gods/Ascendants or Elder Races (or Kallor, but he's cursed and alchemical). But my memory may be faulty here, if so correct me.

yeah you're wrong there, have you read ROTCG? It explains a little about age in there. Although without reading it you can gather that the characters live long. In GOTM it suggests that Tattersail was hundreds of years old, and that any magician will actually live longer than the normal humans. This means they can heal themselves and therefore are able to heal others who are able to pay for it. Healing can slow the age process of any human. Maybe these sentences are jumbled and I have not read for a while, but I am certain I am right.

[ansible]

I have read all Malaz-related literature, though it has been awhile for a few of the books.

I think it's fairly obvious that mages live longer than non-mages. We've seen examples of people who've lived a long time - the Emperor and co. taking residence in the Deadhouse seems to have extended their lives. But Tattersail was just a mage, albeit powerful, but not the most powerful around by any means. So my question is, have we seen any other normal humans (mage or otherwise) explicitly live over 200 years without intervention (the Azath, Ascension, etc.)?

My point being that if not, I don't think it's fair to always point to Tattersail and say, "We've seen one mage live for 200 years, therefore it is reasonable to assume that all mages are likely to live that long."

If RotCG speaks to this I can't recall.

[Silk]

Tattersail was not just a mage, if you dig a little deeper she was also the lover of Mock who was around before Kel even thought of an empire and therefore given timeline (and yes its not important but is in this case) it would make her older then Kel by far

[Tattersail_]

ansible, on 18 August 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:

I have read all Malaz-related literature, though it has been awhile for a few of the books.

I think it's fairly obvious that mages live longer than non-mages. We've seen examples of people who've lived a long time - the Emperor and co. taking residence in the Deadhouse seems to have extended their lives. But Tattersail was just a mage, albeit powerful, but not the most powerful around by any means. So my question is, have we seen any other normal humans (mage or otherwise) explicitly live over 200 years without intervention (the Azath, Ascension, etc.)?

My point being that if not, I don't think it's fair to always point to Tattersail and say, "We've seen one mage live for 200 years, therefore it is reasonable to assume that all mages are likely to live that long."

If RotCG speaks to this I can't recall.

have you read rotcg? I'll find passage now:

Spoiler

'I am old', she said suddenly. 'Strange how those of us who have benefited from manipulating the Warrens, or by ritual, to linger on - continue to do so here in the mines?' Ho did not answer; what was there to say? That it was a mystery? 'For a time I feared I would spend eternity here. Or until the wind eroded the island down around me and I could simply walk away. Do you have no such fears?'


There is also a passage that states that those who could afford it can use high denul to live longer and prolong life. So I do think they live older than us!

[champ]

also take into account the old guard...

Spoiler

Toc the Elder, Urko, Catheron, Ameron etc, they were around whilst the empire was just been formed, and their still hale and healthy in RotCG, these listed aren't mages (maybe bar Ameron) and yet still have long life

This post has been edited by champooon: 18 August 2010 - 04:41 PM

[Furion]

champooon, on 18 August 2010 - 04:40 PM, said:

also take into account the old guard...

Spoiler

Toc the Elder, Urko, Catheron, Ameron etc, they were around whilst the empire was just been formed, and their still hale and healthy in RotCG, these listed aren't mages (maybe bar Ameron) and yet still have long life

To me, this suggests that humans in SE's world all naturally have longer lives than we do. In addition to the extended lifespans granted by magic or proximity to Azath or whatever you want to point to.

[Kanubis]

I was, coincidently, re-reading The Bonehunters today when I came across the following passage, which makes a very explicit reference to 'The Three' - and it looks like we could be barking up the wrong tree here!

The following is spoilered since it's in tBH:

Spoiler

This is from the dialogue between Ganoes and the female High Fist dying alongside Dujek outside G'Danisban:

Quote

'The Three?'

'The rulers of Shal-Morzinn ... for the past thousand years. You seem to recognize the empire's name, which is more than most.'

'I know nothing beyond the name itself, which is found on certain Malazan maps.'

She croaked a laugh. 'Malazans. Knew enough to make their first visit their last.'

'I wasn't aware we'd visited at all,' Paran said.

'The Emporer. And Dancer. The Imperial flagship, Twist. Gods, that craft alone was sufficient to give the Three pause. Normally, they annihilate strangers as a matter of course - we trade with no-one, not even Nemil. The Three despise outsiders. Were they so inclined they would have conquered the entire continent by now, including Seven Cities.'

So it seems the Empire in question could be an entirely different one from the Malazan Empire? Does this suggest a future conflict between Shal-Morzinn and the Malazans, with Grub (and maybe other relics from the BH) on the S-M side?

A whole new line of conjecture anyway

[ansible]

Silk, on 18 August 2010 - 04:32 PM, said:

Tattersail was not just a mage, if you dig a little deeper she was also the lover of Mock who was around before Kel even thought of an empire and therefore given timeline (and yes its not important but is in this case) it would make her older then Kel by far

How does that make her more than a mage? Maybe I haven't been clear - my whole point is that she's older than Kellanved. This is unusual.

Quote

have you read rotcg? I'll find passage now:

Spoiler

'I am old', she said suddenly. 'Strange how those of us who have benefited from manipulating the Warrens, or by ritual, to linger on - continue to do so here in the mines?' Ho did not answer; what was there to say? That it was a mystery? 'For a time I feared I would spend eternity here. Or until the wind eroded the island down around me and I could simply walk away. Do you have no such fears?'


There is also a passage that states that those who could afford it can use high denul to live longer and prolong life. So I do think they live older than us!

I'm sorry...are people not reading what I'm writing? Yes, I have read Return of the Crimson Guard.

Spoiler

I don't recall who is speaking there but it doesn't seem to prove anything. A mage going crazy from being in the otataral mines has delusional fears of living forever until the island erodes...this is not evidence of anything except mages live a long time (which I have agreed with repeatedly). It doesn't say how long, and they certainly do not live forever.

champooon, on 18 August 2010 - 04:40 PM, said:

also take into account the old guard...

Spoiler

Toc the Elder, Urko, Catheron, Ameron etc, they were around whilst the empire was just been formed, and their still hale and healthy in RotCG, these listed aren't mages (maybe bar Ameron) and yet still have long life

Re: Old Guard -

Spoiler

From what I remember many of those were with Kel at the founding of the Empire and had taken residence in the Deadhouse Azath, which was the source of their longevity. It wasn't just a normal lifespan.

Furion, on 18 August 2010 - 05:39 PM, said:

To me, this suggests that humans in SE's world all naturally have longer lives than we do. In addition to the extended lifespans granted by magic or proximity to Azath or whatever you want to point to.

I actually disagree completely, I think there has been no indication that humans live longer in SE's world than they do in our own. If anything, lifespan seems shorter for most people, due to war, disease, lack of medicine, poverty, etc. The exceptions seem to be use of magic (which while common, is not available to most people) and various otherworldy elements. Granted, most of the series focuses on characters who are important and have been exposed to said elements, but the average Joe living on Wu doesn't live for over a hundred years, I would say.

Kanubis - I doubt that is related, since the text seems to deal with Malazan affairs. Also

Spoiler

the Three seems to be a title for the Shal-Morzinn rules, who are over a thousand years old (human?). That Grub and two others would replace them seems odd. But this is just conjecture.

My question still stands, do we have any confirmation at all of another human mage living as long as Tattersail without other intervention?

[Captain Awesome]

Tattersail says that Calot was at least a hundred years old and still looked childlike in his physical appearance. I would guess that Hairlock was also old before turning Pinnocio on us.

Spoiler

The Wickan aunt from RotCG is now the oldest Wickan alive but who knows how old that is. Hu looks old and was one of the first put into the Otat. mines so that's at least a century but he does have...changes made so I don't know if you count that. The Malaz cadre mage from RotCG was one of the original mage defenders of LH I think and when I read him I pictured mid-30sish look to him but I forget how long ago 7C fell...I was thinking on this too the other night to figure out how old Kel was and Isk aral Pust etc are. If you beleive the 2nd Seg then the Baruk, Mammot, etc Cabal were all REALLY old too but longevity seems to be given to magic users/high priests like you said and to people in positions of power, but that due to outside influences (azath, denul, ascention etc).

The oldest non-mage that I can remember in the series so far has been Dujek he's got to be in his 80s since he was 79/80 I think to end GotM.

[champ]

ansible, on 18 August 2010 - 06:09 PM, said:

champooon, on 18 August 2010 - 04:40 PM, said:

also take into account the old guard...

Spoiler

Toc the Elder, Urko, Catheron, Ameron etc, they were around whilst the empire was just been formed, and their still hale and healthy in RotCG, these listed aren't mages (maybe bar Ameron) and yet still have long life

Re: Old Guard -

Spoiler

From what I remember many of those were with Kel at the founding of the Empire and had taken residence in the Deadhouse Azath, which was the source of their longevity. It wasn't just a normal lifespan.

re: Old Guard

Spoiler

I cannot see the entire old guard taking residence in the Deadhouse, they would be sleeping on the roof... fair enough they will of visited the house but to take residence? but then again just visiting may give extra life...

can you imagine how long the place would stand if ST/Cots/Dassem/Surly/Nok/Toc/Urko/Catheron/Ameron/Tays (to name a few) would stand if they all lived together...

ansible, on 18 August 2010 - 06:09 PM, said:

My question still stands, do we have any confirmation at all of another human mage living as long as Tattersail without other intervention?

Not even a mage... without intervention... Duiker

He was fighting on the front lines whilst Kel was still forming the empire and there has never been mention of him been linked with the Deadhouse/Gods etc, maybe not the same age as Tatts but he will be getting on now...

edit

hmmm check Duiker... he's just another drug abusing junkie

Quote

"Being pulled from the front lines had been the Emperor's reward all those years ago. That and various alchemies that keep me tottering on well past my prime. Gods even the scars from that last horror have faded away!

This post has been edited by champooon: 18 August 2010 - 08:27 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

don't see what the need for undeniable evidence is. it's pretty obvious that the accessing and manipulation of warrens, in whatever form that takes, increases the lifespan of a normal human being. who needs this definite, pinned down proof - or exact limit on how old mages can get - and why would you expect it from SE or even ICE?

kellenved is old. obviously i have no proof of this, but i expect he was at least a century old before the empire was founded. it should take at least that long for a nobody dal honese warlock with a talent for shadows and trickery to figure out how to get into an azath house.