[Grief]

Had you lynched Galain on day one, we could've went from there though. Considering we had no time to switch to your favoured candidate, all we would lose was one inno. Instead, we lost the next day as well, and didn't even get a good lynch from it(as galain would've been better than you), which is one reason I think day one lynches are usually good-because things usually end up worse if they don't happen. People were hung up on it, but that is because it doesn't really look like something an inno would do.

[Path-Shaper]

Well it surprises me than anybody but an inno would ever show up and draw unwanted attention. Again, if Galain was a scum master/partner, I'd either 1) Vote him, or 2) Stay quiet and hope the day times out. No way I'd ever show up and jabber.

[Grief]

Path-Shaper, on 25 August 2010 - 11:43 PM, said:

Well it surprises me than anybody but an inno would ever show up and draw unwanted attention. Again, if Galain was a scum master/partner, I'd either 1) Vote him, or 2) Stay quiet and hope the day times out. No way I'd ever show up and jabber.

This comes back to point about scum not having a defined way of playing. In general, we expect scum to lay low, and avoid attention. However, it also looks scummy when people seem to be trying to deliberately avoid looking like they are laying low-which is why post padding without content is often cited as scummy. There wasn't that much reason not to vote galain, and even he would've done so, and he knew his own CF, and not doing it got you a lot of attention. As you argued, it doesn't make that much sense for scum to do this. But since it doens't make much sense for an inno either, it kind of looks just like you are trying to avoid looking like scum. Though this wasn't really my reasoning.

It seemed more like a symp move to me. Stops someone from being lynched, and draws away the attention, knowing that you'd have an inno CF. It would be a good move for a symp, and the move certainly made more sense from a symp POV than an inno one, imo.

[Edrigan]

Thanks for the game folks ~ Was fun, though modkills make me kinda sad, was looking forward to the participating of people.
I might still have some catching up do before I get to your levels of experience, but moving on towards that goal steadily

*highfive Silencer*

Thank's for stoping PB before he run away with our wallets & id's btw

And *smooch* dibs for making our lives a bid easier in the end!

[Silencer]

Edrigan, on 25 August 2010 - 11:56 PM, said:

Thanks for the game folks ~ Was fun, though modkills make me kinda sad, was looking forward to the participating of people.
I might still have some catching up do before I get to your levels of experience, but moving on towards that goal steadily

*highfive Silencer*

Thank's for stoping PB before he run away with our wallets & id's btw

And *smooch* dibs for making our lives a bid easier in the end!

*highfives back*

Haha, you did great bro, really well played. We might have been totally screwed over without the night-one NK if not for those modkills, though, so probably for the best. Especially as one was a vig, :S

[Shinrei]

Rather than pile on dibs, I gotta say that (in general) watching him and dk play tells me that a combination of those two styles are a good way for innos to play. Now, I'm not smart enough to articulate exactly what I mean by that on thread, but both of them have a way of shaking up the snowglobe so they can see which side the snowflakes fall on.

Innos need to do that, obviously. So I agree that innos shouldn't be afraid to throw votes around, and innos shouldn't be afraid to be pushy and vocal. Otherwise the scum can stall and hide all they want. And dibs definately has the right idea in that he doesn't reveal his true motivations for doing what he's doing. The idea is, you keep feeding scum rope until they hang themselves. If you explain yourself to appear clever, you're just letting the scum off the hook.

Doesn't change the fact that dibs dropped the snowglobe in this game...

Overall I had a lot of fun (being chewed out by Silencer notwithstanding ). Thanks guys.

[Silencer]

Haha, yeah, apologies about that Shin, I just had a bunch of shit due at uni, and losing an NK because the mod didn't consider a provo confirmed was a bit annoying at that point in time.

I have to agree about the explanation thing - it's like the trapping crap Sorrit/dkt pulled on day one. The moment you admit to that (no matter how much you deny the specifics) it loses its effect and validity. At the same time, you can end up hanging yourself with your own rope, because the other innos just get frustrated with you. Personally I think the only real problem with dkt's attempt was that he pulled it too early. Could have netted an early scum lynch, but also (as happened) could lead to just muddying the waters for the rest of the game, and scum getting clean away.

I have to say, that not knowing the setup,I was fulling expecting someone like Kesso or Atrahal to come out and pull a finder reveal on me or D'riss for some of the stuff in the first two days. Was there any reason you chose not to put one in, btw?

[Galain]

Damnit, I finally get a correct day one gut case and then I'm the one that almost gets lynched. Well played guys. Definitely didn't have you pegged after ed voted silencer yesterday, but I was right about D'riss. I really would have lynched myself day one, it would have done a lot of good for team inno, but my internet slows to a crawl at night for some reason and I couldn't get on again before I went to bed

[Shinrei]

@Silencer

I kind of like using non-finder roles in M&P's. (Of course saying that, I'll probably put one in the next time I run a game just to throw you off).
The reason I like non-finder is because it forces Town to win by ferreting out the scum without auto-find help. Using healing/guards/vigs effectively is a good skill to hone, and makes the game more interesting and challenging IMO. I have no doubt in my mind that if the vig had ended up with a non-modkill player, it would have been very different game. Especially since people were pegging HP/D'riss as scum but couldn't get cases up and running. If PB had gotten the vig, you would've undoubtably been whacked early on.

Also, I was giving full CF's and there was no symp, so I felt it evened the odds a little more.

[drinksinbars]

i had fun distracted me from this fucking stomach bug i got for a bit. i did not play well, though i couldnt get over SR not lynching galian day 1 and it totally clouded my judgement for the rest of the game.chhers shin

[dktorode]

Wow...great turn around there guys.

Dibs...you plonker

and PB...get off your high horse already.

This post has been edited by dktorode: 26 August 2010 - 08:32 AM

[dktorode]

Galain, on 26 August 2010 - 04:26 AM, said:

Damnit, I finally get a correct day one gut case and then I'm the one that almost gets lynched. Well played guys. Definitely didn't have you pegged after ed voted silencer yesterday, but I was right about D'riss. I really would have lynched myself day one, it would have done a lot of good for team inno, but my internet slows to a crawl at night for some reason and I couldn't get on again before I went to bed

Yup....both my gut calls where correct too.

I actually had it pegged down to HP and driss the night i got killed.
In my mind Kessoh PI'd himself with that whole going to night strategy. And he was the only other person i was thinking was scum.

Good call on my NK....i was all set to lynch HP the next day.
C'est la vie

[Silencer]

Well, you gave off vibes of making a press against me, and you were definitely one of the ranting/pushy/obstinate players in the crowd, so I wasn't about to let that come about, was I?

Risky, though. I ended up killing pretty much all the people who were against me except Anomandaris (who, incidentally, did still get lynched on the last day, but that was dibs' doing) so it was getting to be a bit of a 'thing' at that stage.

One thing I noticed this game, is that no-one seemed to do re-reads and quote-fu. Or at least not as much as in the past. Mind you, it's probably because in one the recent games people decided to just give up instead of back-and-forthing...which you cleverly continued this game on day one with me, dkt, haha.

[dktorode]

Silencer, on 26 August 2010 - 09:04 AM, said:

Well, you gave off vibes of making a press against me, and you were definitely one of the ranting/pushy/obstinate players in the crowd, so I wasn't about to let that come about, was I?

Risky, though. I ended up killing pretty much all the people who were against me except Anomandaris (who, incidentally, did still get lynched on the last day, but that was dibs' doing) so it was getting to be a bit of a 'thing' at that stage.

One thing I noticed this game, is that no-one seemed to do re-reads and quote-fu. Or at least not as much as in the past. Mind you, it's probably because in one the recent games people decided to just give up instead of back-and-forthing...which you cleverly continued this game on day one with me, dkt, haha.

Yea i dont like "leaving things be" much.
Thats how i find scum....i make them talk as much as possible and ask all the hard questions i can think of and try and find out there motivation for playing the way they are playing..
I eventually realized that Atrahal was likely inno by doing exactly that on day one. Of course he and most of the thread didnt understand what i was doing.
Because at the same time that happened i felt you were likely scum because you just "gently" helped the case atrahal made without getting too involved. just nudging here and there.

For me going back and building cases is something i do more closer to end game.
Your play was just too... good.... to actually build a real case on your posts, it was just how you played. The tone, that gave it away for me.

Also i think you guys actually benefited from not having a symp.
If there was a symp we might have actually caught on much quicker with him perhaps trying to deflect from "cases" and votes being laid down on you 2 guys.

Even after all this time...im still learning and trying new things...or this game would just become stale for me.

This post has been edited by dktorode: 26 August 2010 - 09:15 AM

[Silencer]

dktorode, on 26 August 2010 - 09:14 AM, said:

Silencer, on 26 August 2010 - 09:04 AM, said:

Well, you gave off vibes of making a press against me, and you were definitely one of the ranting/pushy/obstinate players in the crowd, so I wasn't about to let that come about, was I?

Risky, though. I ended up killing pretty much all the people who were against me except Anomandaris (who, incidentally, did still get lynched on the last day, but that was dibs' doing) so it was getting to be a bit of a 'thing' at that stage.

One thing I noticed this game, is that no-one seemed to do re-reads and quote-fu. Or at least not as much as in the past. Mind you, it's probably because in one the recent games people decided to just give up instead of back-and-forthing...which you cleverly continued this game on day one with me, dkt, haha.

Yea i dont like "leaving things be" much.
Thats how i find scum....i make them talk as much as possible and ask all the hard questions i can think of and try and find out there motivation for playing the way they are playing..
I eventually realized that Atrahal was likely inno by doing exactly that on day one. Of course he and most of the thread didnt understand what i was doing.
Because at the same time that happened i felt you were likely scum because you just "gently" helped the case atrahal made without getting too involved. just nudging here and there.

For me going back and building cases is something i do more closer to end game.
Your play was just too... good.... to actually build a real case on your posts, it was just how you played. The tone, that gave it away for me.

Also i think you guys actually benefited from not having a symp.
If there was a symp we might have actually caught on much quicker with him perhaps trying to deflect from "cases" and votes being laid down on you 2 guys.

Even after all this time...im still learning and trying new things...or this game would just become stale for me.

See the bold - I think that's the problem everyone had with me, this game. I'm awesome.

I agree about the symp. In the end, dibs did that for us, but it was still good that we didn't have a real symp the whole way through. I think good symp play is a broad topic, but derailing lynches on your masters can be a dangerous game to play, as it ends up leading to them rather than saving them. You're better off building cases from the outset on other people, really, if you can. Give your masters a train they can get behind, rather than a train that other people will switch to away from your masters. Varies on situation, of course.

Everyone has to try new things, otherwise it just becomes playbook.

And talking a lot is what should happen. It's really the only way to find scum - even if it's finding the low posters.

[Tapper]

I agree with Shin. The balls-to-the-wall approach of both dibs and dkt is what town needs. Sure, they get exploited every now and then, and when dead wrong, vocal players tend to steer the entire game away from where it should be, but it is generally continuiing to make cases and lynching that gets results.

There is a game somewhere in the past where I think PB and I or maybe Venge and I were scum, and Khell was making cases all over the place, including four faulty lynches. Yet he kept trying, pressuring and exposing flaws in peoples answers. That is how an inno team should play.

[dktorode]

Silencer, on 26 August 2010 - 09:30 AM, said:

See the bold - I think that's the problem everyone had with me, this game. I'm awesome.

haha...yea but that's what gave you away for me.
You did all the right things a scum player should do...

Almost too good...in a sense.... not giving much for anybody to work with for them to make a case even if they are fairly certain you are guilty is the best way to play. But sometimes also the most revealing.
But at night you just kill them before they see something they can use

[Silencer]

The benefits of killing power, eh?

As Shin (I think) mentioned up-thread - it would have done me over if there was a vig floating about, as you don't need a proper case to use one of them!

[dktorode]

Silencer, on 26 August 2010 - 09:41 AM, said:

The benefits of killing power, eh?

As Shin (I think) mentioned up-thread - it would have done me over if there was a vig floating about, as you don't need a proper case to use one of them!

I would have loved a vig this game....man o man....