[GingerBreadMan]

Is Daseem delusional the entire series?

Hoe exactly was he ever supposed to challenge Hood?

Why do Shadowthrone/Cotillion mention that Mael could have killed him easily enough but only wanted to delay him and then in the same conversation talk about how Daseem would have killed them if he thought they had killed his men?

ShadowThrone/Cotillion were mages before they ascended, now they are Gods..

Daseem is awesome with a sword but has no magic..so how exactly would he kill them?

How would he prevent them from dropping him in a hole like the Jhest in ROTCG?

Is this just Shadowthrone/Cotillion gliding under the radar, pretending they are powerless to stop him?


Same question for Tavore, how exactly did she plan on stopping the various Gods assembled against the CG...was she hoping the Gods would see the army assembled in their path and just turn around instead of slaughtering them?

[Sinisdar Toste]

dassem may not wield "magic" per se, but he is an ascendant and is also worshipped as a god. this grants a sort of personal power that can be drawn upon to negate magic. his very presence is enough to cause a reaction in people around him.

i don't think he could have taken hood, but ST and Cot probably wouldn't stand a chance against him, cuz it seems that the hounds are ol buddys with dassem for some reason.

dassems efficacy comes from his will and relentlessness, he simply wont be stopped. jhest thought that his little hole was gonna kill the guy dead, but dassem just said "shit, i ain't gonna let this chump kill me, are you kidding?" and he was right

[Aptorian]

Dassem is partially or fully ascended, it's not quite clear if it's some kind of switch he does between being Dassem the man and Dassembrae the god. But anyway, he has power. It's not the fire ball flinging, teleporting all over the place kind of power but he has that Efficacy that Erikson likes to talk about. In DOD Mael explains that talking about levels of strength, strength in numbers, etc. are not as important as intent and presence. Somehow one man can be as strong as an Elder God in the right moment.

What more Dassem is carrying Vengeance. It protects him from magical attacks and it amplifies his strength, if wielded by a person of a singular will, the sword becomes pretty much unstoppable.

When Dassem was crossing the sea going to Genebackis, he was indeed at the mercy of Mael, because he'd chosen to enter the Elder Gods domain. The god could have dragged him to the bottom of the sea or maybe had a wild herd of Dhenrabi gobble him up, which would be hard for Dassem to defend himself from when he was on the sea. On land? Mael, better stay the fuck out of his way. Same with Shadowthrone and the Rope. If they have Dassem at a disadvantage, and a distance, they could handle him. But getting up close and personal with the man who may be the single most powerful sword fighter in the World after Rakes death, would be a bad idea.

It doesn't matter if you're a mortal or an Elder God, getting a sword through your heart or your head chopped off hurts like a motherfucker.

EDIT: By the way, the reason to why Mael could have killed Dassem, is probably the same reason why Dassem hasn't just stormed into Hoods realm. If he goes in there, he is at the center of the Jaghuts strength.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 11 August 2010 - 03:54 AM

[GingerBreadMan]

Sinisdar Toste, on 11 August 2010 - 03:47 AM, said:

dassem may not wield "magic" per se, but he is an ascendant and is also worshipped as a god. this grants a sort of personal power that can be drawn upon to negate magic. his very presence is enough to cause a reaction in people around him.

i don't think he could have taken hood, but ST and Cot probably wouldn't stand a chance against him, cuz it seems that the hounds are ol buddys with dassem for some reason.

dassems efficacy comes from his will and relentlessness, he simply wont be stopped. jhest thought that his little hole was gonna kill the guy dead, but dassem just said "shit, i ain't gonna let this chump kill me, are you kidding?" and he was right

Didn't he turn down Godhood though? His inner monologue when he first sees Cotillion says that the look on his face banished any regrets he might have had about doing so..

So wasn't he like the Errant was to begin with, kinda self neutered?

I know Daseem has an unwavering will but the Jhest showed that magic CAN effect him and if Ereko wasn't there presumably Daseem would be dead and or stuck deep in the ground until he died of a lack of oxygen/food/water?

Couldn't Shadowthrone wave an arm and send Daseem into some hole deep in Shadow where he would die of starvation/dehyrdation? Which is another reason to think he is still mortal, after all he was dying until they interfered on his behalf and they both acknowledged he would have died without water/food

Aptorian, on 11 August 2010 - 03:51 AM, said:

What more Dassem is carrying Vengeance. It protects him from magical attacks and it amplifies his strength, if wielded by a person of a singular will, the sword becomes pretty much unstoppable.

Does it protect you from magical attacks?

I thought it simply allowed someone of unwavering willpower to kickass with the sword, it didn't do much to protect him from the Jhest..

Aptorian, on 11 August 2010 - 03:51 AM, said:

When Dassem was crossing the sea going to Genebackis, he was indeed at the mercy of Mael, because he'd chosen to enter the Elder Gods domain. The god could have dragged him to the bottom of the sea or maybe had a wild herd of Dhenrabi gobble him up, which would be hard for Dassem to defend himself from when he was on the sea. On land? Mael, better stay the fuck out of his way. Same with Shadowthrone and the Rope. If they have Dassem at a disadvantage, and a distance, they could handle him. But getting up close and personal with the man who may be the single most powerful sword fighter in the World after Rakes death, would be a bad idea.

I'm certainly not debating that, but Cotillion/Shadowthrone were both a good distance away..inside Shadow and both are mages..

If Daseem had tried to kill them couldn't they just "teleport" to an even further distance and throw magic at him, drop him through a hole ala the Jhest, disappear into shadows and let Daseem wander around swinging at random shadows?

[Kanubis]

Quote

 Didn't he turn down Godhood though? His inner monologue when he first sees Cotillion says that the look on his face banished any regrets he might have had about doing so..

I'm not sure that is strictly his choice. One of the themes that seems to crop up is that Gods are in some way subject to the worship of their followers. If there are people worshipping Dassembrae, I would have thought that would effect Dassem no matter how much he denies being a God.

More to the point though, Erikson doesn't seem to work with the paper-scissors-stone idea, in the MBotF you can rarely say "This guy can do this, so automatically he's able to defeat this guy who can do this, who in turn could beat this guy who can only to this.." I get the impression that even among the same two combatants, the strength of purpose in a given scenario could change the outcome from a different scenario.

[Silk]

its like the real world, where on any day the under dog has a chance to win.....

[Ulrik]

Yep, there arent "levels" and "fireball for six, you...! Hehe, mages ownz.". (I dont mean it offensive). MBoF is beautiful in its unpredictibility and breaking stereotypes. 
Trull is master spearman but, ups... (OK, he didnt see it coming...but thats life)
Vidikas was master duellist, but...ups...


Icarium is walking apocalypse, but hit him into head and...


You never know when you step on spearhead or sappeur.

[GingerBreadMan]

Sure, but they know firsthand how devastating he is with his sword and seem perfectly aware of the danger he poses.

Yet they stated rather matter of factly that if Daseem gets mad, they go down...not "we might die"..just a blunt "He gets mad, we get dead".

[The Seguleh 46th]

GingerBreadMan, on 12 August 2010 - 06:03 AM, said:

Sure, but they know firsthand how devastating he is with his sword and seem perfectly aware of the danger he poses.

Yet they stated rather matter of factly that if Daseem gets mad, they go down...not "we might die"..just a blunt "He gets mad, we get dead".

My thinking is that simply because they state it, doesn't necessarily make that statement true. Lots of characters say things that may or may not be true, since most of it is from their own perspective and opinion. Dassem doesn't want to be a God, but has worshippers anyways (same with Rake IIRC). Ditto for Olar Ethil's "boasting" as well. Who knows how much of what she said is real or BS? Its not like Torrent (think that's the Awl dude's name) would know the difference either way. That's what i love about this, the pure speculation that SE provides us to come up with on our own!

[The Seguleh 46th]

The Seguleh 46th, on 12 August 2010 - 10:17 PM, said:

GingerBreadMan, on 12 August 2010 - 06:03 AM, said:

Sure, but they know firsthand how devastating he is with his sword and seem perfectly aware of the danger he poses.

Yet they stated rather matter of factly that if Daseem gets mad, they go down...not "we might die"..just a blunt "He gets mad, we get dead".

My thinking is that simply because they state it, doesn't necessarily make that statement true. Lots of characters say things that may or may not be true, since most of it is from their own perspective and opinion. Dassem doesn't want to be a God, but has worshippers anyways (same with Rake IIRC). Icarium stating that Dassem/Traveler could probably kill him is up in the air as well if ya want, especially since Iccy rage is so widely known to be profounding devastating to ANYTHING! Ditto for Olar Ethil's "boasting" as well. Who knows how much of what she said is real or BS? Its not like Torrent (think that's the Awl dude's name) would know the difference either way. That's what i love about this, the pure speculation that SE provides us to come up with on our own!

[NikitaDarkstar]

GingerBreadMan, on 12 August 2010 - 06:03 AM, said:

Sure, but they know firsthand how devastating he is with his sword and seem perfectly aware of the danger he poses.

Yet they stated rather matter of factly that if Daseem gets mad, they go down...not "we might die"..just a blunt "He gets mad, we get dead".

Yhea, seeing just how devastating something/someone is first hand can also cause that very same reaction, true or not. Also remember atleast Shadowthrone seems to rely quite heavily on the hounds and Cotillion for physical protection, the hounds won't touch Dassem (hell they come running for cuddling... >.<).. and personally I wouldn't go against someone with one of the most badass swords ever with a rope, no matter how god of an assassin you might be. (Cotillion might be an arrogant bastard but he's not stupid and he seems quite aware of his limits..) Atleast not without the element of surprise on your side.

And then there's ofcourse the fact that Dassem has been an ascendant for longer than Shadowthrone and Cotillion which probably means they're not quite equals if Dassem decides to get rid of them.


As for the theory of Vengance protecting him from magic vs what happened with the Jhest, didn't the Jhest actually manipulate the ground/earth under Dassem, not Dassem himself, you know since his friend (I already forget his name.. the Thel Akai) could just stick his hands into the earth and pull him back up again? If it protects him it's probably more from things directly aimed at him.

[TheSurvivor]

No one's really stood up for Tavore cept Aptorian but I think I'll elaborate. A gathering of gods does equal a gathering of power but there are only so many of them and can only do so much. Tavore had thousands at her command and a lot with projectile weapons including munitions. It's not mentioned that Tavore believes her army would walk away with no more than a bloody nose, she realizes that against a host of gods loses would be depressing in numbers but eventually numbers would tell. We could argue that this wouldn't happen with an example of the T'lan Imass on I believe it was Assail getting completely destroyed by three mages but even then we saw that numbers would tell as one of the three was wounded, likely badly, by one Imass who got close and no I can't remember her name. At the same time we could also argue the Errant's assassination attempt. He had Brys, the guy who made Rhulad look like an amateur, right where he wanted him at the Errant's feet but then one solid punch to the head sent the Errant flailing, stunned. At that point the Errant was very vulnerable to, say, decapitation or Ublala stepping on his throat. True, it was Ublala who punched him and that's gonna hurt a lot more than a human punching but it's an example how one god is still one person and can't look two ways at once and is still capable of being distracted.
At the end of the day though it's been said: the MBotF is not so predictable.

[TheSurvivor]

No one's really stood up for Tavore cept Aptorian but I think I'll elaborate. A gathering of gods does equal a gathering of power but there are only so many of them and can only do so much. Tavore had thousands at her command and a lot with projectile weapons including munitions. It's not mentioned that Tavore believes her army would walk away with no more than a bloody nose, she realizes that against a host of gods loses would be depressing in numbers but eventually numbers would tell. We could argue that this wouldn't happen with an example of the T'lan Imass on I believe it was Assail getting completely destroyed by three mages but even then we saw that numbers would tell as one of the three was wounded, likely badly, by one Imass who got close and no I can't remember her name. At the same time we could also argue the Errant's assassination attempt. He had Brys, the guy who made Rhulad look like an amateur, right where he wanted him at the Errant's feet but then one solid punch to the head sent the Errant flailing, stunned. At that point the Errant was very vulnerable to, say, decapitation or Ublala stepping on his throat. True, it was Ublala who punched him and that's gonna hurt a lot more than a human punching but it's an example how one god is still one person and can't look two ways at once and is still capable of being distracted.
At the end of the day though it's been said: the MBotF is not so predictable.



When I mentioned the T'lan Imass getting 'destroyed' I didn't mean ALL of them. I was merely stating how effective they were being and the results of all their attacks - their loses were large. I say this because some of my past posts have been taken more seriously than I meant them to be.

This post has been edited by TheSurvivor: 13 August 2010 - 02:04 AM

[foolio]

Sinisdar

Quote

i don't think he could have taken hood, but ST and Cot probably wouldn't stand a chance against him, cuz it seems that the hounds are ol buddys with dassem for some reason.

This is absolutely puzzling to me. I just tried to ignore the questions I had regarding this. But how the heck is Daseem friends with the hounds? I know the timeline is not important, but this leaves me speechless. He seems to have knowledge of them and their personalities, yet he has not been around ST and Cot since they became gods, so how would he have become home boys with the hounds?


And just a side note, I just think ST and Cot were being somewhat humble and flippant when they said this. I dont understand how Daseem could kill both of them. They are gods afterall. Just my personal take on it however.

This post has been edited by foolio: 13 August 2010 - 07:40 PM

[Aptorian]

Well, he could kill them in a fight, just like they might kill him in a fight. Cots and ST prefer to pick and chose their battles. Pissing off one of the most dangerous human beings in the world is not something they want to risk.

As for the Hounds, it did seem like they were familiar, but I think the whole "who's a good shadow hound! YOU are, yes you are, daaawwwh" moment had more to do with the Hounds being aware of Dassems strength and differing to him. Maybe one or more of them tried to eat him once and after a serious ass kicking they now respect him.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 13 August 2010 - 07:45 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

plenty of space in the timeline for dassem and the hounds to have run into each other. he was known as "traveller" for a reason i think.

although it could be something completely off the wall that explains their familiarity, like dassem is a soletaken hound of elder swording

[worry]

I believe Dassem ascended before ST and Cots...he was on his way as a soldier, and became a proper god between the flashbacks in NoK and the main action. At least, that's how I think it went. So in a sense, he's older than ST and Cots. Am I wrong about that? My point being that I agree with Sinisdar that he could have met them as Traveller and earned their respect.

He may also have met them in his service of Hood. I'm a little unclear as to whether Dassem came up with the rest of the Old Guard, or if he was an established warrior and Hood acolyte who came into service of the Empire early on. By which I mean, did he come up through the ranks of the Malazan army or was he a badass who joined the cause?

Another option, the hounds may simply know what he did on Drift Avalii. And Shadow itself might take a liking to Dassem, as they serve it and not ST. I wonder if Edgewalker has ever met Traveller, and if they'd get along.

[The Seguleh 46th]

I tend to agree with Apt on this regarding the Hounds and Dassem, as i think they just see the immense strength of will and power, and the fact that he is seemingly unafraid of them, which is something they are probably unaccustomed to. Heck, even ST and Cots seem unsure of them once in awhile. That being said, they'd probably still attack him nonetheless if pressed, or if the need arose. They are beasts after all!

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 13 August 2010 - 11:49 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Just my take on Vengeance, and I could be way off about this. But I think that Vengeance will give someone with a sufficiently singular will and purpose to achieve their ends. Almost like it will allow them to take a death blow and keep on coming because they have somehow melded their will with that of the sword. I believe that they might die afterwards (unless a High Denul healer is bopping around) however. My only evidence to this is that Andarist was getting shredded by Edur sorcery but still standing. He only died after the Edur had been killed and his 'mission' of keeping the throne and the other Andii safe had ended. So if Dassem wanted someone dead badly enough (say...Hood) and found him, he might get torn to pieces, decapitate Hood (seems to be the preferred way of killing him) and then succumb to his wounds.

[foolio]

delete

This post has been edited by foolio: 17 August 2010 - 01:48 PM