[flea]

Abyss, on 17 August 2010 - 03:35 PM, said:

Gods there is SO MUCH potential for those moments. SE could literally wallop us with one after another 'you go on, i'll hold them here' moment.

And we'll be ripped apart every time.

So far the series has avoided the tradition in western literature of the golden age motif, one which emphasizes magic and miracles (e.g., Greek mythology, Judeo-Christian age of miracles, even fantasy like Tolkien). The implication is that our times are so much more ordinary. Will SE head in this direction? I can't help but remember Samar Dev's speculations about magic slowing down human development, the magic deadening properties of otataral, and the possibility of a vast cancellation of all magic through the coming mother of all convergences.

I think we are going to have a love/hate relationship with this book since it will be an ending.

The good news is that SE is still developing as a writer. I will be all over whatever he produces next.

[flea]

Tattersail, on 17 August 2010 - 03:57 PM, said:

flea, on 17 August 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

how do we know he is First Sword again? Who will he be First Sword for?

There is no way I will be able to find this, but there is a quotation from Grub that heads a chapter in one of the books. His title is first sword.

Would you say Paran is an existential Hero? also "here is stand, I can do no other" what does this mean? They can do what they want practically

edit, my bad, You mean that there is no alternative other than the kill me or I kill you stand off scene?

Paran is an interesting example. There are many labels we can use here--I don't want to get too far into cheap philosophizing, especially since one can interpret many characters' actions as a form of what I would consider a soldier's natural stoicism. Part of Paran's character arc has been his unwillingness to commit himself to a cause or course of action--feel free to substitute a reluctance to submit to his fate or destiny here. I don't want to beat this to death; I am much older than the typical person here, and my literary roots are a product of my age. I have no idea whether my observations are valid.

SE undercuts any attempt to see his books and characters through a particular lens. People here comment how he continuously undercuts typical fantasy motifs (I am not an expert in fantasy). In his depiction of Kallor, I really hear echoes of Camus via The Stranger and The Myth of Sisyphus, while Rake seems like a character out of The Plague.

[champ]

in reference to Grub and him been First Sword, it's referring to Grub been First Sword of the Malazan Empire in the "late empire period"

It's a poem at the start of one of the chapters, god knows which book...

[flea]

Which we should find out about through ICE. I can live with that.

[D'rek]

champooon, on 17 August 2010 - 05:07 PM, said:

god knows which book...

Yes, yes I do. HoC.

[Tattersail_]

can you post it? quote it for us

[Tattersail_]

flea, on 17 August 2010 - 04:51 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 17 August 2010 - 03:57 PM, said:

flea, on 17 August 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

how do we know he is First Sword again? Who will he be First Sword for?

There is no way I will be able to find this, but there is a quotation from Grub that heads a chapter in one of the books. His title is first sword.

Would you say Paran is an existential Hero? also "here is stand, I can do no other" what does this mean? They can do what they want practically

edit, my bad, You mean that there is no alternative other than the kill me or I kill you stand off scene?

Paran is an interesting example. There are many labels we can use here--I don't want to get too far into cheap philosophizing, especially since one can interpret many characters' actions as a form of what I would consider a soldier's natural stoicism. Part of Paran's character arc has been his unwillingness to commit himself to a cause or course of action--feel free to substitute a reluctance to submit to his fate or destiny here. I don't want to beat this to death; I am much older than the typical person here, and my literary roots are a product of my age. I have no idea whether my observations are valid.

SE undercuts any attempt to see his books and characters through a particular lens. People here comment how he continuously undercuts typical fantasy motifs (I am not an expert in fantasy). In his depiction of Kallor, I really hear echoes of Camus via The Stranger and The Myth of Sisyphus, while Rake seems like a character out of The Plague.

I haven't read The Plague, Camus Via The Stranger or The Myth of Sisyphus. What type of read are they? When where they published? A lot of book could be related to other books, and there are only so many tyoes of writin styles, it is not just the characters that enchant us, it is also the complex plots the different places, the complexity of magic, ascendants and gods, azath housesand different races, it is such a good read the whole thing.

[champ]

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 07:37 AM, said:

can you post it? quote it for us

http://forum.malazan...showtopic=19548

thread just posted on it

[Tattersail_]

champooon, on 18 August 2010 - 08:45 AM, said:

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 07:37 AM, said:

can you post it? quote it for us

http://forum.malazan...showtopic=19548

thread just posted on it

thanks champoon. what do you make of it?

[Use Of Weapons]

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 07:40 AM, said:

I haven't read The Plague, Camus Via The Stranger or The Myth of Sisyphus. What type of read are they? When where they published? A lot of book could be related to other books, and there are only so many tyoes of writin styles, it is not just the characters that enchant us, it is also the complex plots the different places, the complexity of magic, ascendants and gods, azath housesand different races, it is such a good read the whole thing.

Albert Camus, The Stranger (http://en.wikipedia....tranger_(novel))
Albert Camus, The Myth of Sisyphus (http://en.wikipedia....yth_of_Sisyphus)
Albert Camus, The Plague (http://en.wikipedia....wiki/The_Plague)

Camus was a French philosopher and author, won the Nobel Prize for Literature for The Stranger (L'Étranger). He was often cited as an exponent of existentialism, but actually rejected the label for himself. His views contributed to the rise of the philosophical movement known as 'absurdism', the conflict between the human tendency to seek meaning and the inability to find any. Which has distinct resonances with SE's writing in TMBotF, I would concur.

[champ]

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 09:40 AM, said:

champooon, on 18 August 2010 - 08:45 AM, said:

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 07:37 AM, said:

can you post it? quote it for us

http://forum.malazan...showtopic=19548

thread just posted on it

thanks champoon. what do you make of it?

Nee probs! Typical SE, teasing you with skant details, it's so ambiguous

Quote

Lives of the Three
Moragalle

Are the three all connected? or are they just 3 very important people in history that Moragalle has chosen to write about?

Common sense would dictate that they must be connected and referencing Grub as future First Sword of the Malazan Empire, the other 2 must be up there! i think one of the others must be Sinn as the two have sort of become a tag team, heck he's the only one she will talk to so i cannot imagine her leaving his side (if she survives tCG that is). Plus she fits the bill as a future version of Tays!

I cannot imagne it been nil and nether, they have the wickans and coltaines rebirth to keep them busy.

Quote

As a result, of the future First Sword of the Late Empire period, scant details, beyond the legendary and probably fictitious, are known.

I love this line, Grub surely must of got into some serious escapades... as we are slowly learning! the fact that he is First Sword of the late empire period, the writer is obv writing after the Malazan Empire has ended... but how long has elapsed, who know's, we know Grub is super kickass powerful, Tattersail had lived to over 200 so it could be any time in future...

That leaves who the third and final person could be...

Basically it could be anyone and i honestly don't have a clue...

But whilst writing this i dreamt this up in my head, i would love it to be... Emperor Fiddler =D

Why?

In MoI we learn that WJ could of been Emperor, for me Fiddler has become the WJ to the BH as WJ was to the 2nd... the back bone of the BH, the glue that keeps them together and whilst WJ was screwed, it would be nice if a character finally got what they deserve! there is a kind of symmetry about it, WJ and the 2nd, Fidd and the BH!

oh but the chances of that happening... about 1% =D

This post has been edited by champooon: 18 August 2010 - 10:25 AM

[Tattersail_]

I like SE's ideas, his way of writing and the characters in his book, if they are related to a "style" of writing or a character in another book then fine, i'm glad the other book was there to spur SE on. I see what you mean when you say Kallor could be similar to "the strangers" charcter, Meursault, however, Kallor does have regret, he does have ambition and rage, he is a nasty pathological killer, where as, to me it seems that Meursault had either autism or asbereges or some other sort of mental health problem and to me Kallor knows what he is doing and why.

[flea]

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 10:34 AM, said:

I like SE's ideas, his way of writing and the characters in his book, if they are related to a "style" of writing or a character in another book then fine, i'm glad the other book was there to spur SE on. I see what you mean when you say Kallor could be similar to "the strangers" charcter, Meursault, however, Kallor does have regret, he does have ambition and rage, he is a nasty pathological killer, where as, to me it seems that Meursault had either autism or asbereges or some other sort of mental health problem and to me Kallor knows what he is doing and why.

Nobody is claiming that SE is making direct references to Camus, or taking elements of his plots. SE was born in 1959, and it is highly unlikely that he was never exposed to Camus, Sartre, existentialism, or theater of the absurd during his education. As part of my education these ideas resonate. I don't know to what extent they are part of one's education these days. I do know that The Stranger is still taught at my school in southern California and, from what I gather in discussions on a teachers' listserv, throughout the United States.

The more interesting question is the problem of immortality. The books mention the problem of the Tiste Andii living so long without any purpose. Kallor deals with this too in TtH. The issue comes up in virtually any book dealing with immortals.

Speaking of Kallor, do any of you think he might appear in tCG? He whisked away by his god, so he could appear. Can you imagine what a badass he would be with Daseem's sword, Vengeance?

[Tattersail_]

I see what you mean, have you not read SE's thoughts on writing styles, I don't know where the post is but I have read about it. he has read many different types of books and styles and not just in the fantasy genre. He studied books in english literature and many famous authors in the past.

Kallor should turn up I think, if not to try and destroy K'rul

[D'rek]

The whole "The Three" bit has been brought up plentifully before and basically the other two could be anyone, even dead or uninvolved people. The Three could be Dassem, Korbolo and Grub - the 3 First Swords of the Empire - or it could be Grub, the current Emperor/Empress and Adjunct of the Late Empire Period, or it could be a collection of 3 important people named Grub.

It is cool that it indicates the ME will continue beyond tCG, though I don't think that'll be much of a factor in events in tCG anyways, since the ME isn't particularly involved or under threat except for the whole wipe-out-all-of-existance-FA-threat. But we knew that wouldn't really happen anyways because MBotF is a history and someone has to live to write/collect that history.

[Baudinsballs]

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 10:34 AM, said:

I like SE's ideas, his way of writing and the characters in his book, if they are related to a "style" of writing or a character in another book then fine, i'm glad the other book was there to spur SE on. I see what you mean when you say Kallor could be similar to "the strangers" charcter, Meursault, however, Kallor does have regret, he does have ambition and rage, he is a nasty pathological killer, where as, to me it seems that Meursault had either autism or asbereges or some other sort of mental health problem and to me Kallor knows what he is doing and why.

Are you suggesting that autism is a mental illness?

[dodgowan]

The Azath is being worn down/ attacked by something. Silchas tells Udinnas in DoD.

Just a crazy theory but maybe the Seguleh are K'rul's private army and he just sends them in to wipe out everyone he wants.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Baudinsballs, on 20 August 2010 - 05:19 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 10:34 AM, said:

I like SE's ideas, his way of writing and the characters in his book, if they are related to a "style" of writing or a character in another book then fine, i'm glad the other book was there to spur SE on. I see what you mean when you say Kallor could be similar to "the strangers" charcter, Meursault, however, Kallor does have regret, he does have ambition and rage, he is a nasty pathological killer, where as, to me it seems that Meursault had either autism or asbereges or some other sort of mental health problem and to me Kallor knows what he is doing and why.

Are you suggesting that autism is a mental illness?

do you have a problem with that?

not an illness really, (your word btw), just a condition requiring understanding and acceptance

[Baudinsballs]

Sinisdar Toste, on 21 August 2010 - 10:45 PM, said:

Baudinsballs, on 20 August 2010 - 05:19 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 10:34 AM, said:

I like SE's ideas, his way of writing and the characters in his book, if they are related to a "style" of writing or a character in another book then fine, i'm glad the other book was there to spur SE on. I see what you mean when you say Kallor could be similar to "the strangers" charcter, Meursault, however, Kallor does have regret, he does have ambition and rage, he is a nasty pathological killer, where as, to me it seems that Meursault had either autism or asbereges or some other sort of mental health problem and to me Kallor knows what he is doing and why.

Are you suggesting that autism is a mental illness?

do you have a problem with that?

not an illness really, (your word btw), just a condition requiring understanding and acceptance

Mental problem tends to insinuate illness
Yes I do as it's completely different from a mental illness or problem. It's not a mental health problem. I have aspegers, which is a form of autism and I'm sound of mind.
It tends to be classed more as a learning difficulty as it effects people socially, i.e unable to make connections. And in other ways too.

its like me saying. Oh Freddy mercery died from some gay problem

This post has been edited by Baudinsballs: 22 August 2010 - 07:25 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Baudinsballs, on 22 August 2010 - 07:21 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 21 August 2010 - 10:45 PM, said:

Baudinsballs, on 20 August 2010 - 05:19 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 18 August 2010 - 10:34 AM, said:

I like SE's ideas, his way of writing and the characters in his book, if they are related to a "style" of writing or a character in another book then fine, i'm glad the other book was there to spur SE on. I see what you mean when you say Kallor could be similar to "the strangers" charcter, Meursault, however, Kallor does have regret, he does have ambition and rage, he is a nasty pathological killer, where as, to me it seems that Meursault had either autism or asbereges or some other sort of mental health problem and to me Kallor knows what he is doing and why.

Are you suggesting that autism is a mental illness?

do you have a problem with that?

not an illness really, (your word btw), just a condition requiring understanding and acceptance

Mental problem tends to insinuate illness
Yes I do as it's completely different from a mental illness or problem. It's not a mental health problem. I have aspegers, which is a form of autism and I'm sound of mind.
It tends to be classed more as a learning difficulty as it effects people socially, i.e unable to make connections. And in other ways too.

its like me saying. Oh Freddy mercery died from some gay problem

ok, it seems were actually in agreement. i just wanted to avoid misunderstanding about autism/aspergers, being a psychology student and all.