[foolio]

I am a big fan of the Tour de France, and have watched as much as possible over the last 16 years. As cycling is not really that big in the states I was wondering if the sprinters, like Cavendish, are treated with the same type of awe and respect as the over all winners, like Contador?

[Tapper]

foolio, on 26 July 2010 - 04:02 PM, said:

I am a big fan of the Tour de France, and have watched as much as possible over the last 16 years. As cycling is not really that big in the states I was wondering if the sprinters, like Cavendish, are treated with the same type of awe and respect as the over all winners, like Contador?

In some ways more, as they deliver under loads of pressure, in a very frantic and outright dangerous press of constantly shifting positions, at incredible speed - and in some ways less.

The respect aside, there is one big thing in cycling that works against sympathy and respect for sprinters: the mechanic of the small group of escapees versus the big mass. Sprinter teams are the champions of the big mass, trying to keep everything together and basically keep the finale of the race boring.

Opposing them are the underdogs: the little groups of escapees that try to finish solo or in a small group and stay out of the grasp of the pack, which can amass far more manpower. Sympathy is and always will be with these guys, who color the stage and make it exciting, and who invariably get into mind games with one another.

Moreover, there's a sense of stupidity surrounding sprinter teams who don't have one of the big guns.
A team working for second rate/ out-of-form sprinters like, say Ciolek, McEwen (nowadays, he was a top sprinter in his day) or Steegmans (who didn't start) tries to achieve the exact same thing as the teams of people like Cavendish and Farrar.

The difference is, Cavanedish and Farrar are are bound to beat the others 90% of the time (when not closed in).

So, they basically try to get a long shot and do the work for the big guys.

Finally, the green jersey has become an afterthought these days, it is no longer enough to make a Tour succesful for a team, as it used to be.

Teams rather win a stage than supply the overall best finisher. This had lead in my humble opinion to a lessening of the intensity of the sprint and a devaluation of the value of sprinters by the fans in general: sprinters abruptly slow down once their chance to win is gone, instead of sprinting for the points of say, the fifth place.

It is also nowadays okay to leave the Tour once you've won a stage - back in the day when Cippolini did that, it was severely frowned upon.

EDIT: so, the top sprinters are valued by their teams (lots of media attention, and they're usually colourful people) and the public equal, at most only slightly below the big guns for the yellow jersey. The second row guys however are looked upon with some pity.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 26 July 2010 - 04:25 PM

[foolio]

thanks Tapper. I love the dynamics of the peleton and the break aways and am thoroughly amazed at how good sprinters and their teams, like Cavendish recently , get in possition and generally come through when given the opportunity. But as an American I was wondering how slanted the coverage is for us, since we have been beaten to death with Lance over the past 10 years. And I dont mean that in a bad way, but years ago he was presented as the end all be all of racing and I was alwasy very interested with the Sprinters that seemed to be a bigger deal than we were let in on. (Prior to him, it was LeMond that my fellow americans wanted to claim.)Climbers too, are they a step below sprinters in Europe?


The tour has become a ritual for me, it concides with an absolute vacume of other sporting interests for me, so it is perfect timing. AT minimum, I watch the Vs recap show every night. God, how my wife hates this time of year.

help me out, I forget what the green jersey means...

This post has been edited by foolio: 26 July 2010 - 04:33 PM

[HiddenOne]

Americans only care for sports that end with -ball, and/or involve violence.

[Binder of Demons]

foolio, on 26 July 2010 - 04:31 PM, said:

help me out, I forget what the green jersey means...

The green jersey is awarded to the cyclist that has amassed the most points, for stage victories, high placed finishes, and there are also bonus points at various points during a stage, particularly in mountain stages.

It often signifies the most consistent cyclist in the race, but that may not be reflected in the overall standings as that boils down to time, pure and simple. So you could be great for 19/20 stages and get loads of points, and then have one bad day in the mountains and lose a huge amount of time on the leaders, and so be no threat to the yellow jersey.

There was an Irish cyclist in the 80's called Sean Kelly, and he was the perfect example of this. Great sprinter, Amazing Time-trialist, great tactical cyclist, but used to die in the mountains and so he never won the tour. But he practically owned the Green Jersey.

[Gothos]

Cycling isn't a sport anymore, it's a chemist convention

[foolio]

Gothos, on 26 July 2010 - 06:23 PM, said:

Cycling isn't a sport anymore, it's a chemist convention

good line.

I also think cycling is a huge reason why europeans in general are far more advanced in their pursuit of cutting edge testing for doping. Its a shamecycling gets this rap, because it really is a cool sport.

I live in Nascar country where people think I am stupid for wacthing bike racing and not stock cars driving fast and turning left.

[Gothos]

Not all that fun to watch imo either, cycling. Whenever I see it on Eurosport or something like that, the commentary guys are just fooling around and discussing some fun facts about this and that, answering viewer mail etc.
I went to see Tour de Pologne when they were rolling through my home town... 1 hour waiting, then watched people ride on bikes for like 3 minutes and then it was gone. Kek.
Wish they'd purge the doping from this though, then at least it'd be some iron men riding there. But right now, if anyone wants to hit the top 100, they have to be juiced like a race horse.

[Procyon]

How I miss the 90s and danish cycling commentary. You could be entertained all day long by Mader and Leth with gold comments like:

He's falling through the peloton like a led weight in water.
Kirsipuu is boiled, if you throw carrots and onions into the pot with him you have estonian soup.
Here is the big german telephone book, and it's been turned to the yellow pages.
The cow... that make milk.. and butter... it's widely known normannic butter is the best in the world.

Give them a few bottles of red wine and a microphone and your entertained for a decade

[Gothos]

Just throw in the fact that in polish the same word (pedał) can be used to describe both a pedal and a fag/queer in a semi-derigatory manner, and you've got funny soup cropping up ("Wonder child of two pedals" to describe a cycling prodigy, for instance)

[foolio]

Gothos, on 27 July 2010 - 05:43 AM, said:

Just throw in the fact that in polish the same word (pedał) can be used to describe both a pedal and a fag/queer in a semi-derigatory manner, and you've got funny soup cropping up ("Wonder child of two pedals" to describe a cycling prodigy, for instance)

no shit?

[Gothos]

I kid you not.

[foolio]

interesting.

[Tapper]

foolio, on 26 July 2010 - 04:31 PM, said:

thanks Tapper. I love the dynamics of the peleton and the break aways and am thoroughly amazed at how good sprinters and their teams, like Cavendish recently , get in possition and generally come through when given the opportunity. But as an American I was wondering how slanted the coverage is for us, since we have been beaten to death with Lance over the past 10 years. And I dont mean that in a bad way, but years ago he was presented as the end all be all of racing and I was alwasy very interested with the Sprinters that seemed to be a bigger deal than we were let in on. (Prior to him, it was LeMond that my fellow americans wanted to claim.)Climbers too, are they a step below sprinters in Europe?


The tour has become a ritual for me, it concides with an absolute vacume of other sporting interests for me, so it is perfect timing. AT minimum, I watch the Vs recap show every night. God, how my wife hates this time of year.

help me out, I forget what the green jersey means...

Climbers... they made a return with Contador and the Schleck brothers, but they ahd been absent for a long, long time in the top ten standings. Everyone tried either to be an Armstrong (light pedal tread, all round strong, not too light, not too heavy), or an Indurain/ Ullrich (heavy pedal tread with the muscle mass to match), who were more time trial riders.
The mountain jersey (white with red balls, obtained by arriving at the top of cols first) was basically for camera-time obsessed French talents who would escape after ten kilometres, climb all the mountains, look fatigued and in a heroic struggle while the pack just treaded around lightly not giving a fuck, grasp the most points, get caught by the really dangerous and fast guys on the last climb, and lose 45 minutes on that last mountain.
Maybe the assessment is a bit unfair, but it is how I feel about it. They need to revive it, in this Tour, either Contador or Schleck should have been mountain king, not Chatreaud, who can't keep up on anything bigger than a foothill at speed.

As for media coverage: I don't think it so much slanted.
Armstrong is the big man, always has been since he won his first Tour - not in the least because he is very attractive for the media - always a quote, always a statement, always delivering, and after he won his fifth, basically one step ahead of even Merckx (who won literally EVERYTHING during his career) or Hinault, the last great all round champion.

Not to mention that he has been preparing himself in ways maybe only Indurain matched him in, which was admirable: completely focusing his entire season on the Tour (thereby incidentally also spelling the death of cyclists winning all year around).

On the other hand, as much as he is admired, the European public is sick of him (and not just the French, those guys really hate him, especially the press).

I must admit I groaned a bit myself when he announced his return (although the Giro d'Italia that year was exciting, and mostly thanks to Armstrong riding there and really making his comeback, the media coverage was excellent).

Not just because of all the rumours of dope surrounding the team (always happens when you're a class apart, especially in a sport that is viewed with so much cynisism as cycling) but also because he has won it too often, and dominated everything: his team dominating the flat territory and foothills and the team time trial, he himself the individual time trials and mountain stages.
He simply never lost time anywhere.

I think out of the seven victories, four were a given, either due to his superiority, or to the lack of opposition (who were one another's match, so the spot 2 race was at times exciting). Moreover, people started copying him and riding with very passive, defensive tactics became popular amongst Armstrongs 'opponents', rather than trying to outright attack and destroy, they started watching one another and glue themselves to the wheel of the man behind them in the overall standings.

It simply does not make a good three week sporting event if the winner is known on day 1 and is the same guy as the years before, and the opposition fights for place 2 but does so very carefully.

---enough on that ----

What I do think you are lacking in America is the impact of the classics (several 1 day courses in spring and autumn), which in my humble opinion are far more exciting than anything the Tour can offer. They go from sprint races like Milan-San Remo to cobblestones like Paris-Roubaix where it is mano-a-mano, to hills in the Ardennes, to mountain stages in Lombardy and Bask Spain, and each and every one is exciting.

The Giro d'Italia is possibly the most exciting 3 week event: higher mountains, more attacks, more danger. However, it is in late spring when everyone is working and can't watch it, it doesn't have the finances to be lucrative, and as a result, the media stay away. That's the main success of the Tour, and why it attracts the best teams: a huge % of the population of the countries where it is broadcasted is not at work, which gives lots of exposure to the sponsors.

[Aptorian]

Every year I try to give a damn about Tour de France and every year I am bored out of my mind.

I've always thought that the game would be much better if you just pumped all of them up on steroids, gave them mountain bikes and gave them bats that they could swing at each other. I also think they should remove the safety rails on the mountain slopes and allow the players to shoot those idiots who always step out in front of them.

[foolio]

Quote

On the other hand, as much as he is admired, the European public is sick of him (and not just the French, those guys really hate him, especially the press).

I must admit I groaned a bit myself when he announced his return (although the Giro d'Italia that year was exciting, and mostly thanks to Armstrong riding there and really making his comeback, the media coverage was excellent).

totally understand....are people kind of happy now that he has come back and seemed mortal?

The tour is just perferct timing for me. It is at a time when only pro baseball is on. (I would rather watch fat people have sex than pro baseball) And it does not overlap with football(american). I absolutely love football and nothing could ever compete with it , for MY viewing pleasure. Its been over 100 degrees outside for about 13 of the past 15 days so its just tough to get outside for long. Just comes at a perfect time for me to tune in every year.


One last thing, the people running by the riders in the mountain stages, seems like a dissaster waiting to happen. The comentators make it sound like that is part of the appeal and it is a nice touch and what makes fans feel like they are part of the tour. Necessary? A bunch of dumbasses in the way?

[Procyon]

foolio, on 28 July 2010 - 01:40 PM, said:

One last thing, the people running by the riders in the mountain stages, seems like a dissaster waiting to happen. The comentators make it sound like that is part of the appeal and it is a nice touch and what makes fans feel like they are part of the tour. Necessary? A bunch of dumbasses in the way?

A bunch of dumbasses, if you saw the duel between Schleck and Contador on col de la colombiere Schleck got a flag in his face and Contador was close to having on get into his chain...

Spectators yes, people who make the road more narrow no.

[foolio]

Procyon, on 28 July 2010 - 06:57 PM, said:

foolio, on 28 July 2010 - 01:40 PM, said:

One last thing, the people running by the riders in the mountain stages, seems like a dissaster waiting to happen. The comentators make it sound like that is part of the appeal and it is a nice touch and what makes fans feel like they are part of the tour. Necessary? A bunch of dumbasses in the way?

A bunch of dumbasses, if you saw the duel between Schleck and Contador on col de la colombiere Schleck got a flag in his face and Contador was close to having on get into his chain...

Spectators yes, people who make the road more narrow no.

cool. Makes sense.

[Tapper]

Procyon, on 28 July 2010 - 06:57 PM, said:

foolio, on 28 July 2010 - 01:40 PM, said:

One last thing, the people running by the riders in the mountain stages, seems like a dissaster waiting to happen. The comentators make it sound like that is part of the appeal and it is a nice touch and what makes fans feel like they are part of the tour. Necessary? A bunch of dumbasses in the way?

A bunch of dumbasses, if you saw the duel between Schleck and Contador on col de la colombiere Schleck got a flag in his face and Contador was close to having on get into his chain...

Spectators yes, people who make the road more narrow no.

'zactly.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Heading to the world championship mountain bike races at Mt. Ste. Anne outside Quebec City this weekend.

Should be pretty cool. And drunk. So very drunk.