[zpconn]

Thanks for the explanation. That makes much more sense, regarding Circle Breaker and Lorn.

I have another question now, actually. In Dragnipur's warren, why is Paran able to summon Oponn? Why does Oponn so easily submit to Paran? Why can Paran all of a sudden overpower a god easily? And why does the gambit he plays with the Hounds suddenly launch him out of the warren and back into the "real world"?

[ansible]

 zpconn, on 24 July 2010 - 04:10 PM, said:

Thanks for the explanation. That makes much more sense, regarding Circle Breaker and Lorn.

I have another question now, actually. In Dragnipur's warren, why is Paran able to summon Oponn? Why does Oponn so easily submit to Paran? Why can Paran all of a sudden overpower a god easily? And why does the gambit he plays with the Hounds suddenly launch him out of the warren and back into the "real world"?

I addressed this a bit in the other thread, and if I'm wrong someone needs to step in and correct me.

From what I understand, it is Paran's connection to the Hounds, created by his touching of their blood, that draws him into Dragnipur. Once the Hounds leave through the Kurald Galain portal under the wagon, Paran leaves too.

As for Oponn, the relationship between gods and mortals is complex in MBotF. This is a pretty crude analogy, but imagine that when a god gives an item of power to a mortal, the item is connected to the god by an imaginary rope; the item therefore links the god and the mortal. (Although a god doesn't necessarily have to use an item to give a mortal power, but in GotM this is the case.) Crokus, for instance, is totally unaware that he is the Coin Bearer and an agent of Oponn, so when Oponn pulls on the rope and influences Crokus, he barely notices. Other Ascendants (like Rake) DO notice, and they are attempting to get the coin so they can mess with Oponn (by pulling on the rope, so to speak). Paran, however, eventually realizes that his sword, Chance, is the means by which Oponn is attempting to influence him. When Paran died, Oponn convinces Hood to bring him back to life, because Oponn wanted to use him. So Paran's sword is linked to Oponn. In Dragnipur, Paran pulls on that imaginary rope, using the sword. Oponn can't resist because they have given some of their power into the sword. This is the danger inherent in gods' meddling (and exactly the reason Oponn is afraid that their Coin would fall into the hands of Anomander Rake, or Shadowthrone).

Also, Paran is on his way to being more than just a Captain of the Bridgeburners. Future spoiler:

Spoiler

When does Paran become Master of the Deck? Is it this early and he just doesn't know it yet? I can't remember.

[zpconn]

 ansible, on 24 July 2010 - 10:09 PM, said:

 zpconn, on 24 July 2010 - 04:10 PM, said:

Thanks for the explanation. That makes much more sense, regarding Circle Breaker and Lorn.

I have another question now, actually. In Dragnipur's warren, why is Paran able to summon Oponn? Why does Oponn so easily submit to Paran? Why can Paran all of a sudden overpower a god easily? And why does the gambit he plays with the Hounds suddenly launch him out of the warren and back into the "real world"?

I addressed this a bit in the other thread, and if I'm wrong someone needs to step in and correct me.

From what I understand, it is Paran's connection to the Hounds, created by his touching of their blood, that draws him into Dragnipur. Once the Hounds leave through the Kurald Galain portal under the wagon, Paran leaves too.

As for Oponn, the relationship between gods and mortals is complex in MBotF. This is a pretty crude analogy, but imagine that when a god gives an item of power to a mortal, the item is connected to the god by an imaginary rope; the item therefore links the god and the mortal. (Although a god doesn't necessarily have to use an item to give a mortal power, but in GotM this is the case.) Crokus, for instance, is totally unaware that he is the Coin Bearer and an agent of Oponn, so when Oponn pulls on the rope and influences Crokus, he barely notices. Other Ascendants (like Rake) DO notice, and they are attempting to get the coin so they can mess with Oponn (by pulling on the rope, so to speak). Paran, however, eventually realizes that his sword, Chance, is the means by which Oponn is attempting to influence him. When Paran died, Oponn convinces Hood to bring him back to life, because Oponn wanted to use him. So Paran's sword is linked to Oponn. In Dragnipur, Paran pulls on that imaginary rope, using the sword. Oponn can't resist because they have given some of their power into the sword. This is the danger inherent in gods' meddling (and exactly the reason Oponn is afraid that their Coin would fall into the hands of Anomander Rake, or Shadowthrone).

Also, Paran is on his way to being more than just a Captain of the Bridgeburners. Future spoiler:

Spoiler

When does Paran become Master of the Deck? Is it this early and he just doesn't know it yet? I can't remember.

That's actually a fantastic explanation. Thanks very much.

[Robin55077]

"Throughout the book I was wondering if Kruppe's dream world is somehow its own warren, of which Kruppe is the master. I doubt that's right, but it's the thought I had nevertheless. That would make Kruppe something of a god if true and provided my understanding of gods is correct (and it's probably not)."

I have read the entire series twice and am now on my 3rd time through. I have always felt that Kruppe's dream was a warren. This is the first that I have ever seen anyone else suggest it though. (Thank you for posting it here!) As to Kruppe being the master of his "dream warran", I always felt that K'rul was the master so I never thought of Kruppe as a god. I always felt that Kruppe's "dream warren" was created as a "safe haven" if you will for the shifting of Tattersail, and that the dream sequences prior to that event were kind of to prepare Kruppe for the event. Of course, once K'rul saw how useful it (the "dream warren") and Kruppe both were, he decided to keep it. This probably makes no sense to anyone but me but I thought I would post it anyway. Happy reading!

[Furion]

We must be open to the possibility that Kruppe is, himself, ascendant. He (really awesome spoiler, do not read)

Spoiler

withstood Burn's Hammer, and by his own words, he has something of a gift of prophecy. Not to mention he seems to have knowledge of events as they occur, evidenced during a couple of his POVs during TTH.

If he is ascendant, then this sheds a great amount of light on what goes on during his dreams.

This post has been edited by Furion: 25 July 2010 - 06:07 PM

[Aptorian]

Kruppe is not an ascendant. Erikson has stated that he is mortal.

[Furion]

 Aptorian, on 25 July 2010 - 06:10 PM, said:

Kruppe is not an ascendant. Erikson has stated that he is mortal.

(spoilerific)

Spoiler

Is Paran immortal? Are Gesler or Stormy immortal? I believe Karsa is now ascendant as well, is he not?

I don't remember immortality being a defining characteristic of an ascendant.

This post has been edited by Furion: 25 July 2010 - 08:10 PM

[worry]

Still the GotM forum, duder.

[Aptorian]

 Furion, on 25 July 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:

 Aptorian, on 25 July 2010 - 06:10 PM, said:

Kruppe is not an ascendant. Erikson has stated that he is mortal.

I don't remember immortality being a defining characteristic of an ascendant.

Mortal is in this instance a technical term. You are either mortal or you are an ascendant.

Erikson has stated that Kruppe is not an ascendant, there, was that better?

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 25 July 2010 - 07:46 PM

[Furion]

 worrywort, on 25 July 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:

Still the GotM forum, duder.

*sigh
Sorry dude. (I normally try to avoid this forum for that reason >.>)

[Furion]

 Aptorian, on 25 July 2010 - 07:45 PM, said:

 Furion, on 25 July 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:

 Aptorian, on 25 July 2010 - 06:10 PM, said:

Kruppe is not an ascendant. Erikson has stated that he is mortal.

I don't remember immortality being a defining characteristic of an ascendant.

Mortal is in this instance a technical term. You are either mortal or you are an ascendant.

Erikson has stated that Kruppe is not an ascendant, there, was that better?

I suppose, but now I gotta wonder how Kruppe can do all the things he does if he's not ascendant.

[Silencer]

Sheer audacity!

And I'm only half joking...

[worry]

He has access to the warren of Diabetes.

[Osserc - Lord of the Sky]

 Grief, on 04 July 2010 - 05:05 PM, said:

I've not read Gardens for quite a while, but i'll try and answer as best I can:


13. Yes Baruk hints that he is ascendant. It is Gotmism in that simply that wouldn't make him Rakes equal. Being an ascendant does not necessarily make you more powerful in a physcial or magical sense.

When i first read the book, i didnt even notice that he hinted on his ascendancy. But it IS true that not all ascendants are all powerful, sword flailing beasts like Rake. they are just given immortality and some other unique, supernatural skills of some kind.

[Rand37]

It is mentioned of Kruppe being a "seer" and sorry/the rope becomes aware of this and it in fact bothers him/her. As a seer, his dreams with K'rul may be part of his abilities as a result?