[zpconn]

I finished Gardens of the Moon a few days ago and have started Deadhouse Gates, but there are a few questions I keep having about the plot of GotM, so I figured I ought to post them here.

1) Why did it take the Bridgeburners so long to realize they shouldn't detonate the mines? I realized this early on and thought it was going to be a plot hole (i.e., they would detonate them and city would react as if it weren't lit by gas pipes everywhere), but it turns out Kalam "realizes" the danger at the very last moment but doesn't even tell anybody (because of the demon, which is understandable). Maybe it's not common knowledge outside the city that Darujhistan is filled with gas pipes, but I would think it would have been obvious once arriving.

2) So Tattersail imitated Quick Ben to soul shift into Nightchill. Why did she then end up in a dream?

3) What's with the dreams of Kruppe anyway and people randomly entering into them? Tattersail entered into the dreams. K'rul entered into the dreams. Raest just walked right into one, and Tool I guess found his way in as well. What?

4) At what point did Paran's sword Chance become a tool of Oponn?

5) If all it took was a T'lan Imass to unleash the Tyrant and people have been trying to do so for so long, uh.... why had they not just used a T'lan Imass, since it was evidently so easy to find one? Or was it not easy to find Tool, and the book just omits that detail? If the latter, how exactly did Lorn get Tool to work with her? Where did he come from?

6) The Azath. Basically, I don't understand what it is or how it came to be or who controls it.

7) Circle Breaker had a message for Lorn and Lorn was supposed to give something to the Bridgeburners. What and what?

8) After repelling lightning erupting from Baruk's hand, Vorcan is defeated with two bricks. What, did Oponn make the bricks weigh 10,000 tons or something?

9) So people like Turban Orr really didn't even know the name of Anomander Rake...? That doesn't seem very likely to me, not very likely at all. Almost impossible. How could Orr not know the name of Rake, you know, the ultra-powerful lord of the freaking Moon floating above the city and who nearly destroyed the Malazan army that assaulted it when it was above Pale? Especially considering that Orr was so interested in the affairs of the Malazan empire.

10) What, exactly, was the Finnest? Lorn planted it in the garden, I gather. Did it have something to do with the Azath? With the house Rallick took Vorcan into?

11) Why did Ammanas and Cotillion release the Hounds in the beginning? I think they were covering their tracks or something. What tracks? Why was it necessary to slaughter so many to cover these tracks?

12) As far as I can tell, the scene displaying Caladan Brood was utterly irrelevant to this book's story. Why put that scene in this book and not in some other book where it actually belongs? I don't think this is a matter of style. It doesn't seem to be Erikson's style to include truly irrelevant scenes, even if it is his style to spread information out. This scene seemed truly pointless for this book.

13) Is Baruk an Ascendant, based on a conversation he had with Rake? If so, that makes the fight with Vorcan seem even sillier to me.

14) I found Erikson's description of the wagon in Dragnipur's warren incomprehensible. Can someone describe the appearance of this wagon and where this source of chaos is actually located? Is it under the wagon or something? I usually liked Erikson's descriptions, but this was the worst one for me.

Whew! I think that's it for now.

Thanks!

[Note: I edited the Azath question to be less negative as I have changed my opinion about it the further I've went in the series.]

This post has been edited by zpconn: 31 July 2010 - 06:22 PM

[Grief]

I've not read Gardens for quite a while, but i'll try and answer as best I can:

1. I think the pipes are underground.
2. Can't really remember.
3. Kruppes dreams are strange.
4. Either as soon as he names it, or when they stop him from dying.
5. They're not that easy to find. And I think her otataral sword was important too. Also, no one had known exactly where the barrow was before. They'd(Bellurdan I think) found some documents or something, mentioned early on iirc.
6. RAFO.
7. Can't remember.
8. She doesn't see it coming, so uses no magic on it. It's possible oppon helps somewhat though, since it's implied that there is help with the aim, but a brick to the head could easily knock someone out if they weren't expecting it.
9. A bit of a GotMism. Characters in Gotm don't always match up with characters outside of it. Rake is more known in other books. Though it is mentioned that the council has failed to establish any contact with Moons Spawn.
10. The finnest was a sort of power store for Raest. The azath fed on it's power.
11. They were covering the tracks of Sorry being possessed. They killed the people so no-one could find out someone was missing. Also something of a Gotmism.
12. Can't remember which scene you mean. Do you mean hen Crone goes to speak to him? If so, it's kind of just to build Rakes backstory. Also a bit of a Gotmism.
13. Yes Baruk hints that he is ascendant. It is Gotmism in that simply that wouldn't make him Rakes equal. Being an ascendant does not necessarily make you more powerful in a physcial or magical sense.
14. The chaos is chasing behind the wagon. The chained people are dragging the wagon to try and keep it away from the chaos.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

1)Yes one would assume that not many know that there is gas in Darujhistan. Also actually Kalam thinks about before but then he's distracted, he's a busy man, and forgets about it until later.

2)Some of it is explained in later books but basically Tattersail's soul went into Nightchill's rests and then in the body of a child who had yet to be born. Things had to be controlled thus the involvement of K'rul and the T'lann Imass.

3)Kruppe is a special guy and we have yet to understand him completely. There are speculations that it's K'rul's power that make the dream accesible by others.

4)I actually don't remember. Did Paran become a pawn of Opponn after his resurrection?

5)Eh, the T'lann Imass once were controlled by the Emperor of Malazan so I assume Tool decided it was okay to help an agent of the Empire. Normally T'lann Imass don't care about human affairs( see Tool's refernce to futility) and, most important, don't free Jaghuts(more in later books)

6) the Azath are actually very important in the series. They seem to be constructs(perhaps partially conscious) whose only aim is to trap powerful beings no matter wether good or evil.

7)No idea

8) Really you're telling me you can't believe god aspected objects can't by pass magical wards?

9)Yeah that's a bit strange I agree. However in later books, knowledge is more widely spread.

10)Finnests are objects(in Raest's case an acorn) in which power is stored and seem to be exclusively Jaghut made. Lorn wasnted Raest to go retrieve his Finnest(were 90%of his power was stired) so that he would meet Rake and fight against him. However the Azath grew on it, risked being overwhelmed but thanks to Tool and Paran prevailed. It then used the Finnest's power to defeat Raest.

11)Yup that's it. they didn't want witnesses.

12) Irrilevant? Then we would have been wondering why the hell the Crimson Guard decided to protect Crokus from the Andii assassins.

13)Yes he is. However Ascendants aren't all on Rake's level nor do they necessarily be uber strong beings. More on Baruk and Vorcan in later books.

14)The wagon is actually the portal to Darkness(the big void under it). The people chained to it pull it so that Chaos doesn't reach it.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 04 July 2010 - 05:17 PM

[Aptorian]

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

I finished Gardens of the Moon a few days ago and have started Deadhouse Gates, but there are a few questions I keep having about the plot of GotM, so I figured I ought to post them here.

1) Why did it take the Bridgeburners so long to realize they shouldn't detonate the mines? I realized this early on and thought it was going to be a plot hole (i.e., they would detonate them and city would react as if it weren't lit by gas pipes everywhere), but it turns out Kalam "realizes" the danger at the very last moment but doesn't even tell anybody (because of the demon, which is understandable). Maybe it's not common knowledge outside the city that Darujhistan is filled with gas pipes, but I would think it would have been obvious once arriving.

Gas and its explosive qualities is not something you would immediately expect people of an ancient civilization with no physics or chemistry classes to know about.

I suspect even the general populace of Darujistan are not fully aware of the possible dangers of all that gas. Like people building cities on the side of a volcano.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

2) So Tattersail imitated Quick Ben to soul shift into Nightchill. Why did she then end up in a dream?

Hmm. The full details and meaning of that event will only become clear in MOI.

Tattersail had no say in the outcome, her last act was a desperate gamble which she did not know what would be the outcome off. She probably thought she was committing suicide, a faith more preferable to be captured and interrogated by the Empire.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

3) What's with the dreams of Kruppe anyway and people randomly entering into them? Tattersail entered into the dreams. K'rul entered into the dreams. Raest just walked right into one, and Tool I guess found his way in as well. What?

Kruppe is one of the greatest (if not the greatest) minds of the Malazan world. K'rul is currently unable to manifest physically in the "real world", so he shows up in dreams. It's his new aspect.

K'rul was using Kruppes dream world for various means. One was taking out Raests first form, the other, regarding Tattersail, will become clear in MoI.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

4) At what point did Paran's sword Chance become a tool of Oponn?

When the deal was struck and Paran returned from the dead I'm guessing.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

5) If all it took was a T'lan Imass to unleash the Tyrant and people have been trying to do so for so long, uh.... why had they not just used a T'lan Imass, since it was evidently so easy to find one? Or was it not easy to find Tool, and the book just omits that detail? If the latter, how exactly did Lorn get Tool to work with her? Where did he come from?

Freeing the Tyrant would be a suicide mission. You can't free the Tyrant and use him for anything but fucking everything up on a continental scale.

Anyone freeing the Tyrant would be vulnerable to possession. The T'lan Imass, who are not just a tool by the way, are all interconnected. If a Tyrant was able to take control of a Bonecaster, it would be able to assume control of the entire clan of T'lan Imass. Tool however, is clanless. As such, while Tool could have been lost, it would not have been that great a loss.

You also have to remember GotM is 10 years older, give or take, than the rest of the series. It means that the book is a bit off in some regards. In the current books, nobody in their right minds would have attempted to use the Tyrant for that purpose.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

6) The Azath. The biggest disappointment of the entire book. So Raest is defeated using a magical contraption left utterly unexplained. And Rallick takes Vorcan into some house. Can anybody explain this Azath to me without spoiling later books and why Rallick entered into it and why it even appeared and who controls it and what in the world Tool did with it in the dream?

You're going to learn more about the Azath in DG. Erikson using it in GotM was a bit of a Deus Ex Machina, but it served to introduce it into the storyline, and there is a reason as to why he did it that way.

The Azath are semi-sentient magical constructs that can appear anywhere and any when, they can be planted, but mostly they seem to be able to simply manifest where they feel they are needed. They are enormously powerful and nobody just "controls" an Azath. You might use it for a purpose, but once the Azath is in place it will eat anyone or anything that comes within reach.

The basically look like big evil looking stone, wood and mortar towers, surrounded by giant yards or gardens that are a kind of killing field. Anything that ventures into this area and steps off the garden path, risks getting taken by the Azath roots.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

7) Circle Breaker had a message for Lorn and Lorn was supposed to give something to the Bridgeburners. What and what?

I don't remember that. Somebody refresh my memory.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

8) After repelling lightning erupting from Baruk's hand, Vorcan is defeated with two bricks. What, did Oponn make the bricks weigh 10,000 tons or something?

The Malazan worlds combat, be it magical or physical, is very offence oriented. You may be a big bad ass god or High Mage, but if someone sneaks up and stabs you in the liver you are going down. Some use wards, and some are more damage resistant than others, but in the case of Vorcan a coup de grace with a brick worked just fine.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

9) So people like Turban Orr really didn't even know the name of Anomander Rake...? That doesn't seem very likely to me, not very likely at all. Almost impossible. How could Orr not know the name of Rake, you know, the ultra-powerful lord of the freaking Moon floating above the city and who nearly destroyed the Malazan army that assaulted it when it was above Pale? Especially considering that Orr was so interested in the affairs of the Malazan empire.

There are some inconcistancies with the book and the lore compared with the rest of the series. They are lovingly dubbed GotMisms. One of those is that people seem to have little knowledge of the gods and warrens.

It's impossible to believe that people wouldn't have known what Rake is.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

10) What, exactly, was the Finnest? Lorn planted it in the garden, I gather. Did it have something to do with the Azath? With the house Rallick took Vorcan into?

Finnests are Jaghut vessels. They are usually used to store power or souls.

In the case of the Azath, it functioned as a lure. The Azath(s) sensed the power and it came to absorb it.

There is reason to suspect that the Azath then took on some of the aspect of that power because it is now known as the Finnest House.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

11) Why did Ammanas and Cotillion release the Hounds in the beginning? I think they were covering their tracks or something. What tracks? Why was it necessary to slaughter so many to cover these tracks?

You know how some burglars might steal your beer and flat screen TV and then burn down the house to not leave any evidence? Will, this is on a much more crazy scale. Also Erikson was probably trying to depict the average ascendant as being very nasty and very careless with the costs of human life.

The reason to why they use this approach is that they stole the Fishergirl so that she could be used as a vessel for Cotillion. The intelligence network of the Malazan Empire is apparently extremely good and there was a chance that if they just took the girl and entered her into the military, she could have been connected with an abduction... or something. So instead they hid a simple abduction inside a massive slaughter.

In the later books, Cotillion and Shadowthrone are usually depicted as being less gruesome. Also the reason for the abduction and Cots under cover work is also retconned in MOI or HOC. So take it with a grain of salt.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

12) As far as I can tell, the scene displaying Caladan Brood was utterly irrelevant to this book's story. Why put that scene in this book and not in some other book where it actually belongs? I don't think this is a matter of style. It doesn't seem to be Erikson's style to include truly irrelevant scenes, even if it is his style to spread information out. This scene seemed truly pointless for this book.

The story takes place on the backdrop that the Malazan Empire is fighting against the combined forces of the Free cities led by the Warlord Caladan Brood. I guess you could say that it was simply a fleshing out of the command structure.

How ever Erikson also has a way of showing you something in one book and making the reason plain in later books. Caladan plays a much bigger role in MOI.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

13) Is Baruk an Ascendant, based on a conversation he had with Rake? If so, that makes the fight with Vorcan seem even sillier to me.

There is something that suggests that he is ascended or that he via alchemy and magic has attained something similar. How ever just because you're an Ascendant doesn't mean that you're some all powerful weapon of mass destruction. On one side of the scale you have a monster like Raest who is extremely powerful and dangerous. On the other side you have a small fish like Baruk who is nothing out of the ordinary unless you look closer or he choses to reveal what he really is capable of.

Ascendants are not all gods. They are simply people or creatures that are "more. They have broken their limitations.

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

14) I found Erikson's description of the wagon in Dragnipur's warren incomprehensible. Can someone describe the appearance of this wagon and where this source of chaos is actually located? Is it under the wagon or something? I usually liked Erikson's descriptions, but this was the worst one for me.

Chaos is the counter balance to Order. It is the breaking down of structure. It wars with all of creation, including the warrens. Dragnipur is a sword with a warren inside it. Inside this sword a gateway connected with Darkness is bound to the giant wagon. If Chaos eats the wagon, Darkness is destroyed. So the souls that Dragnipur kills are chained to the wagon and the keep the wagon in front of Chaos.

If you think this sounds over complicated you are right.

More on all this in MoI.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 04 July 2010 - 05:28 PM

[zpconn]

Aptorian, on 04 July 2010 - 05:20 PM, said:

Gas and its explosive qualities is not something you would immediately expect people of an ancient civilization with no physics or chemistry classes to know about.

I suspect even the general populace of Darujistan are not fully aware of the possible dangers of all that gas. Like people building cities on the side of a volcano.

I suppose this is probably the best explanation.

It does make me wonder, then, how people managed to use the gas to create large pillars of fire that lit the city. That would seem to make some of the chemical properties of the gas obvious. (Such pillars of fire are mentioned in Erikson's first description of the gas-lit city.) Nevertheless I can accept that it simply was not general knowledge.

Aptorian, on 04 July 2010 - 05:20 PM, said:

Kruppe is one of the greatest (if not the greatest) minds of the Malazan world. K'rul is currently unable to manifest physically in the "real world", so he shows up in dreams. It's his new aspect.

K'rul was using Kruppes dream world for various means. One was taking out Raests first form, the other, regarding Tattersail, will become clear in MoI.

Throughout the book I was wondering if Kruppe's dream world is somehow its own warren, of which Kruppe is the master. I doubt that's right, but it's the thought I had nevertheless. That would make Kruppe something of a god if true and provided my understanding of gods is correct (and it's probably not).

Aptorian, on 04 July 2010 - 05:20 PM, said:

You're going to learn more about the Azath in DG. Erikson using it in GotM was a bit of a Deus Ex Machina, but it served to introduce it into the storyline, and there is a reason as to why he did it that way.

The Azath are semi-sentient magical constructs that can appear anywhere and any when, they can be planted, but mostly they seem to be able to simply manifest where they feel they are needed. They are enormously powerful and nobody just "controls" an Azath. You might use it for a purpose, but once the Azath is in place it will eat anyone or anything that comes within reach.

The basically look like big evil looking stone, wood and mortar towers, surrounded by giant yards or gardens that are a kind of killing field. Anything that ventures into this area and steps off the garden path, risks getting taken by the Azath roots.

Is it possible that in Kruppe's dream the T'lan Imass somehow put an Azath into the Finnest, so that Lorn unintentionally planted an Azath in the garden?

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

7) Circle Breaker had a message for Lorn and Lorn was supposed to give something to the Bridgeburners. What and what?

"Eyeing the two guards stationed at the gate [to Darjhistan through Worrytown], she [Lorn] approached warily. Only one seemed to pay her any attention [Circle Breaker], and this man spared her but the briefest glance before returning his attention to the Worrytown mob.

... [Switch to Circle Breaker's perpective of what just happened]

He adjusted his helmet again, hoping the unseen friendly eyes had marked his signal. That woman who had passed through a few minutes ago had matched the Eel's description perfectly. Circle Breaker knew he wasn't mistake. She'd looked a warrior, dressed as a mercenary and trying to hide the bloodstains of a wound on her shoulder. His searching glance had been but momentary. Years of practice, however, made it sufficient. He'd caught everything the Eel's messenger had told him to look for."

Evidently Circle Breaker gave Lorn a signal by glancing at her, and this was "sufficient."

Later on, in a conversation between Quick Ben and Whiskeyjack, just after Lorn left,

"'Paran said she was going to drop something off,' Quick Ben said. 'Did she?'
'Not yet.'"

She never does, as far as I can tell, but I may be missing something.

Aptorian, on 04 July 2010 - 05:20 PM, said:

The Malazan worlds combat, be it magical or physical, is very offence oriented. You may be a big bad ass god or High Mage, but if someone sneaks up and stabs you in the liver you are going down. Some use wards, and some are more damage resistant than others, but in the case of Vorcan a coup de grace with a brick worked just fine.

Makes sense I suppose. I can accept that.

Aptorian, on 04 July 2010 - 05:20 PM, said:

There is something that suggests that he is ascended or that he via alchemy and magic has attained something similar. How ever just because you're an Ascendant doesn't mean that you're some all powerful weapon of mass destruction. On one side of the scale you have a monster like Raest who is extremely powerful and dangerous. On the other side you have a small fish like Baruk who is nothing out of the ordinary unless you look closer or he choses to reveal what he really is capable of.

Ascendants are not all gods. They are simply people or creatures that are "more. They have broken their limitations.

I see. I suppose I had a misconception that Ascendants were by their nature significantly stronger than any non-Ascendant. I wonder, then, in what way Baruk has achieved more than his race "allows" while still clearly not being able to match Vorcan in sorcery. I mean, Rake himself suggests Baruk is in someway his equal, yet if Baruk is not even Vorcan's equal in sorcery, I'm not sure in what way Baruk could be Rake's equal--evidently in some category other than sorcery?

Aptorian, on 04 July 2010 - 05:20 PM, said:

Order. It is the breaking down of structure. It wars with all of creation, including the warrens. Dragnipur is a sword with a warren inside it. Inside this sword a gateway connected with Darkness is bound to the giant wagon. If Chaos eats the wagon, Darkness is destroyed. So the souls that Dragnipur kills are chained to the wagon and the keep the wagon in front of Chaos.

If you think this sounds over complicated you are right.

More on all this in MoI.

Well, it's complicated indeed but still interesting.

Thanks very much for all the replies!

[NikitaDarkstar]

A few things about Vorcan becomes obvious MUCH later in the series. Actually I think it doesn't come back up until Toll the Hounds, but for now write it off as abit of GotiSM and the fact that Vorcan is abit more than she seems.

[Grief]

In regards to the Circle Breaker bit, I take that as the Eels messenger telling him to look out for Lorn. It reads to me like he is spying on her, and the signal is being sent to someone else, most likely one of the Eels men, telling them that it is her.

And I think Whiskeyjack and QB are essentially hinting that Paran is lying to cover for her, since her mission doesn't involve dropping anything off as far as I remember.

Aptorian said:

You also have to remember GotM is 10 years older, give or take, than the rest of the series. It means that the book is a bit off in some regards. In the current books, nobody in their right minds would have attempted to use the Tyrant for that purpose.

This is very true(in general, though I disagree this particular instance-it's not very inconcieveable that someone might free a big nasty, and try and lure it into a convergence to get rid of someone like Rake). A lot of Gardens doesn't fit well with the other books, and trying to justify these things is pointless.

[Harvester]

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 06:53 PM, said:

He adjusted his helmet again, hoping the unseen friendly eyes had marked his signal. That woman who had passed through a few minutes ago had matched the Eel's description perfectly. Circle Breaker knew he wasn't mistake. She'd looked a warrior, dressed as a mercenary and trying to hide the bloodstains of a wound on her shoulder. His searching glance had been but momentary. Years of practice, however, made it sufficient. He'd caught everything the Eel's messenger had told him to look for."

Evidently Circle Breaker gave Lorn a signal by glancing at her, and this was "sufficient."

Later on, in a conversation between Quick Ben and Whiskeyjack, just after Lorn left,

"'Paran said she was going to drop something off,' Quick Ben said. 'Did she?'
'Not yet.'"

She never does, as far as I can tell, but I may be missing something.

Nope, that's not a message. He just identifies her as Adjunct Lorn. Remember that she is killed by Meese and Irilta later on.

DAMMIT

This post has been edited by Harvester: 04 July 2010 - 07:24 PM

[Aptorian]

Grief, on 04 July 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

Aptorian said:

You also have to remember GotM is 10 years older, give or take, than the rest of the series. It means that the book is a bit off in some regards. In the current books, nobody in their right minds would have attempted to use the Tyrant for that purpose.

This is very true(in general, though I disagree this particular instance-it's not very inconcieveable that someone might free a big nasty, and try and lure it into a convergence to get rid of someone like Rake). A lot of Gardens doesn't fit well with the other books, and trying to justify these things is pointless.

I agree some other parties (that we meet later) might still free a Tyrant, for what ever nefarious purpose, but I wouldn't buy the Malazan Empire doing it.

But the Not-GotM Tayschren of all the people involved would forbid it I am sure. He would know what a Jaghut Tyrant really was (as well as who the Lord of Moons Spawn is) and I don't think he'd allow that danger to the Malazan empire. I also have a hard time believing that the T'lan Imass could obey such an order.

[Grief]

Tools actions don't make much sense, compared to later on. He'd have to be pretty sure Raest would die to do it, I think.
Also, Gotm-Tay does know who Rake is. I can't see non-Gotm Tay going for him in that fashion(even had he been damn sure Rake would kill Raest) though, but I don't find it that hard to believe Laseen would try to get rid of Rake. Though we don't know much about their opposition ot each other pre-Gotm, and lots of what we do know comes from Gotm. There was enough opposition for Laseen(MOI SPOILER)

Spoiler

to think she needed to pretend to exile the army, regardless of the size of the threat represented by Pannion

, so I don't think it's that hard to believe that she would release Raest to try and kill him. Also, he's a long way from her empire, and lots of people would probably converge to try and get rid of him. As well as this, her plan is that Raest weakens Rake and her Galayn Lord mops up. So, if Raest killed Rake, they could just use the Galayn Lord to kill Raest. If they believed the Galayn Lord close to a match for Rake(most like gotmism, since we never see any other Galayn iirc), then they maybe thought he could take Raest out, which makes the plan a lot more risky. It relies on Raest going for the finnest of course, but they seemed fairly certain he would.

The plan does rely on a few things that aren't very consistent with other books, such as Tools actions and the GL being nearly as strong as Rake, but I don't think that the Empire trying to kill Rake by releasing Raest is that unbelieveable, given that in that book, they have a close match to Raest in the GL.

[amphibian]

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 06:53 PM, said:

I suppose this is probably the best explanation.

It does make me wonder, then, how people managed to use the gas to create large pillars of fire that lit the city. That would seem to make some of the chemical properties of the gas obvious. (Such pillars of fire are mentioned in Erikson's first description of the gas-lit city.) Nevertheless I can accept that it simply was not general knowledge.

The gas is supposed to be some sort of analogue to oil - which is pretty far down in the earth. My thinking is a bit different from most here and relies heavily upon putting stuff in that the author didn't. I believe that the mines were ostensibly planted as to cripple the infrastructure of the city, but their real purpose was to level it if the plans involving Rake, Raest and Vorcan all went to hell.

The subtle schemes in GotM don't quite have the logic and polish that Erikson developed to a much greater degree in the very next book, but they sorta fit if you do a little bit of extrapolation and forgiving.

The Azath are kind of the Malazan universes's lymphatic system. They're essentially mystical fortresses that apparently eat powerful things and feed off them in order to keep the universe/world from being blown up. The Finnest House is the newest of them and fed off of the core of Raest's power within the finnest in order to establish itself.

[worry]

Hey, I didn't know Anomander Rake's name either until SE told it to me. Cut the Darujhistanis some slack.

[zpconn]

Aptorian, on 04 July 2010 - 05:20 PM, said:

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

11) Why did Ammanas and Cotillion release the Hounds in the beginning? I think they were covering their tracks or something. What tracks? Why was it necessary to slaughter so many to cover these tracks?

You know how some burglars might steal your beer and flat screen TV and then burn down the house to not leave any evidence? Will, this is on a much more crazy scale. Also Erikson was probably trying to depict the average ascendant as being very nasty and very careless with the costs of human life.

The reason to why they use this approach is that they stole the Fishergirl so that she could be used as a vessel for Cotillion. The intelligence network of the Malazan Empire is apparently extremely good and there was a chance that if they just took the girl and entered her into the military, she could have been connected with an abduction... or something. So instead they hid a simple abduction inside a massive slaughter.

I re-read the relevant section, and now I'm not sure this interpretation is right, even though I agreed with you when I first read what you wrote.

Ammanas lets the Hounds go loose and attack the column of soldiers first. Then he asks Cotillion if he's come to a decision yet (presumably about the fishergirl who watched them let the Hounds go), but he uses Cotillion's name and the girl hears, so Cotillion replies, "Using my name, Ammanas, means you've just decided for me. We can hardly leave her here now, can we?" Ammanas then says, "Of course we can, old friend. Just not breathing."

Only then does Cotillion think of possessing her, which means the Hounds were set loose for another purpose.

One possible thought is that Ammanas decided, before releasing the Hounds, that Cotillion should possess her, and he just released the Hounds before informing Cotillion of his decision. But this cannot be since he then suggests killing her.

If anything, Cotillion possessed her so she wouldn't tell about the Hounds--the other way around from what you wrote:

"'I've no choice anymore, child,' Cotillion said. 'After all, you know our names.'
'I've never heard them before!' the girl cried.
The man sighed. 'With what's happening up the road right now, well, you'd be questioned. Unpleasantly. There are those who know our names.'
'You see, lass,' Ammanas added, suppressing a giggle, 'we're not supposed to be here. There are names, and then there are names.'"

Could it be as simple as Ammanas and Cotillion trying to screw with Laseen, given that she assassinated them?

By the way, right after this they agree to let the father live, and Cotillion says, "greed will suffice, once the slate is wiped clean." What did happen to her father anyway?

This post has been edited by zpconn: 05 July 2010 - 03:11 AM

[amphibian]

Once you read Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice, you'll understand why Ammanas and Cotillon possessed the girl. The breathing part may refer to killing her - perhaps in a manner which leaves her body intact and ready for Cotillon to take over, eh?

[zpconn]

Well, I'm not really wondering why they possessed the girl. Possessing someone seemed to be part of their plans all along. I'm wondering why they released the Hounds before deciding that it was Sorry/Apsalar/fishergirl whom Cotillion would possess. I mean, what you said is a possible explanation, but it sounds like a stretch to me--it definitely sounds like Ammanas simply meant to kill her and Cotillion then convinced him that there was no need because he could possess her.

[ansible]

I just reread the passage where Cotillion possesses Sorry. It seems to me that the decision they refer to was not whether or not to possess someone - that was the plan all along, and the reason for the Hounds - but rather whom Cotillion should choose. Perhaps a fishergirl, perhaps a middle-aged man, etc. Ammanas makes the decision for him by using his name, which means they would have to either kill her and choose someone else, or use her. Later, before he possesses her, Ammanas says, "She's ideal. The Empress could never track her down, could never even so much as guess," which further leads me to believe that they came to the village intending to possess someone, used the Hounds as cover, and decided whom it would be once they arrived.

[ansible]

zpconn, on 05 July 2010 - 05:28 PM, said:

Well, I'm not really wondering why they possessed the girl. Possessing someone seemed to be part of their plans all along. I'm wondering why they released the Hounds before deciding that it was Sorry/Apsalar/fishergirl whom Cotillion would possess. I mean, what you said is a possible explanation, but it sounds like a stretch to me--it definitely sounds like Ammanas simply meant to kill her and Cotillion then convinced him that there was no need because he could possess her.

Just saw this post. Ammanas probably released the Hounds because he just does things when he feels like it, and has no problem killing the girl to cover their tracks and choosing someone else to possess. Cotillion clearly isn't as willing (in this scene) to kill the girl without reason, which he then has when his name is revealed. By the way, on that quote you showed above, where Ammanas says, "Of course we can, old friend. Just not breathing," Cotillion then replies, "No, she'll do." So Ammanas is forcing Cotillion's hand a bit, and he doesn't really care about the girl, other than that she will fit nicely into his plans (as he says later). Cotillion wasn't sure whom to choose until he has to either use the girl or kill her, and so he uses her.

[Lizradusa]

zpconn, on 04 July 2010 - 04:24 PM, said:

9) So people like Turban Orr really didn't even know the name of Anomander Rake...? That doesn't seem very likely to me, not very likely at all. Almost impossible. How could Orr not know the name of Rake, you know, the ultra-powerful lord of the freaking Moon floating above the city and who nearly destroyed the Malazan army that assaulted it when it was above Pale? Especially considering that Orr was so interested in the affairs of the Malazan empire.

I don't think, that it is impossible. Orr never studied some kind of magic or something related. So Rake can easely be known to him only as the 'Lord of Moonspawn' or as 'Son of Darkness' or some other title and not by his name.

[Black Winged Lord]

Grief, on 04 July 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

In regards to the Circle Breaker bit, I take that as the Eels messenger telling him to look out for Lorn. It reads to me like he is spying on her, and the signal is being sent to someone else, most likely one of the Eels men, telling them that it is her.

And I think Whiskeyjack and QB are essentially hinting that Paran is lying to cover for her, since her mission doesn't involve dropping anything off as far as I remember.

I agree with Grief that Circle Breaker's message is to someone else not Lorn, and that they are keeping tabs on her. Clearly the Eel etc have a good amount of knowledge on Lorns plan to drop off the finnest which is why all the spying is going on.

Also Quick and Whiskeyjacks crew must have a fair idea as well, as they think that she was originally going to hide the finnest at their base, and so pretty much guarantee their destruction when Raest comes to fetch it.
This may have been a Gotmism, as we are still not completely sure on the Empresses exact plans re the culling of the empire old guard, including the bridgeburners. Lorn as her right-hand may have known her true intentions, or not.

[ansible]

Black Winged Lord, on 14 July 2010 - 02:57 AM, said:

Grief, on 04 July 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

In regards to the Circle Breaker bit, I take that as the Eels messenger telling him to look out for Lorn. It reads to me like he is spying on her, and the signal is being sent to someone else, most likely one of the Eels men, telling them that it is her.

And I think Whiskeyjack and QB are essentially hinting that Paran is lying to cover for her, since her mission doesn't involve dropping anything off as far as I remember.

I agree with Grief that Circle Breaker's message is to someone else not Lorn, and that they are keeping tabs on her. Clearly the Eel etc have a good amount of knowledge on Lorns plan to drop off the finnest which is why all the spying is going on.

Also Quick and Whiskeyjacks crew must have a fair idea as well, as they think that she was originally going to hide the finnest at their base, and so pretty much guarantee their destruction when Raest comes to fetch it.
This may have been a Gotmism, as we are still not completely sure on the Empresses exact plans re the culling of the empire old guard, including the bridgeburners. Lorn as her right-hand may have known her true intentions, or not.

I just finished a reread of GotM a few minutes ago.

On Lorn and Circle Breaker: Kruppe (the Eel) just ran into Lorn out in the Gadrobi Hills with Coll, Murillio, and Crokus. He mentions later that he could obviously tell she was Malazan by her outfit and her Otataral sword. So Kruppe, as the Eel, sends a message to Circle Breaker to keep an eye out for a woman fitting Lorn's description; this is why Circle Breaker is posted at the Worry Gate, instead of his usual post at Despot's Barbican. Circle Breaker reports Lorn's arrival, and it gets back to Meese and Irlita, who, under instructions from the Eel, find Lorn and eventually kill her.

On Lorn and the Bridgeburners: Paran was expecting Lorn to give something to the Bridgeburners because he and Tattersail had figured out Lorn's (really, Laseen's) plan to wipe out the city and the Bridgeburners. Paran expected an item of some sort that would lead Tool to the squad, which is why he asks if she gave them anything. When they talk to Dujek, Whiskeyjack infers that Lorn is actually leading Raest to the city and that she will find them in the process. Hence they still expect some sort of item that will attract the Tyrant. They were right about the item, but instead Lorn plants the Finnest in the garden at Lady Simtal's estate. A quote for support:

Gardens of the Moon, Tor MMPB, p.567 said:

Paran rubbed his red-shot eyes. "She must have given them something," he insisted wearily, "even if they didn't see it."

Kalam wagged his head. "I've told you, sir, she didn't. Everyone was on the lookout for something like that. The squad's still clean. Now, we'd better get moving."

Paran climbed to his feet with an effort. He was exhausted, and he knew he was just an added burden. "She'll turn up at this estate, then," he inststed, strapping on his sword.

So by the time Lorn strolls into Quip's Bar and finds the Bridgeburners, they know she has betrayed them and is trying to get them killed, so they were on the lookout for anything strange as well.