[Aptorian]

An idea struck me the other day regarding Kolanse.

In Dust of Dreams we learn that a big chunk of the CG fell on a peninsula of Lether. Was it his heart? I seem to recall they mentioned his heart, anyway, it was an important powerful piece, that seems to be of interest to everyone, namely those creepy FA and the EGs.

What strikes me as odd is that the CG seemingly had no interest in it earlier in the book. Why didn't the CG make Rhulad send his armies at Kolanse? Sure, obtaining power and thrones was a good strategy but you'd think he would be more concerned that a big chunk of himself was being drained for some nefarious purpose.

Or is it that he actually controls the FA?

Does the piece of rotten Crippled God have an influence on the people? Is the suffering going on there right now making him stronger?

Or maybe he wont go near Kolanse because they can control him through the chunk of flesh?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Maybe he doesn't know that his heart is there? Okay rather unlikely but perhaps it's like the Pirates of Caribean movies. He doesn't dare go there because he is afraid the FA will destroy it. Or maybe they do control him and told him to do whatever he wants but just forget about Kolanse.

Crazy theories abound.

[masan's saddle]

I remember posting something similar to this a while ago, although I was veering into crazy theory land

I thought that Held was a physical manifestation / part of the CG in the mortal realm that the "children " of the snake were trying to take out of Kolanse. Sort of reborn/ sustained through the suffering of others / inverted Jesus myth.

I haven't reread DOD yet but I remember thinking there was a definite link between the snake and the CG and the subsequent reason those FA were pursuing them (because they were stealing some sort of power source ?). Meh it seemed clear to me at the time but i've forgotten it.

Imagine those bits of CG floating around as Horcruxes if it helps and in before the flames, deepest apologies for the Harry Potter reference

This post has been edited by masan's saddle: 07 June 2010 - 01:10 PM

[The Seguleh 46th]

masan, on 07 June 2010 - 01:10 PM, said:

I remember posting something similar to this a while ago, although I was veering into crazy theory land

I thought that Held was a physical manifestation / part of the CG in the mortal realm that the "children " of the snake were trying to take out of Kolanse. Sort of reborn/ sustained through the suffering of others / inverted Jesus myth.

I haven't reread DOD yet but I remember thinking there was a definite link between the snake and the CG and the subsequent reason those FA were pursuing them (because they were stealing some sort of power source ?). Meh it seemed clear to me at the time but i've forgotten it.

Imagine those bits of CG floating around as Horcruxes if it helps and in before the flames, deepest apologies for the Harry Potter reference

I really need to reread this book! That is an awesome theory BTW in reference to the Snake and Held! Had a hard time wrapping my mind around the Snake POV in general, as i know they serve an ultimate purpose, but couldn't quite grab onto it. I wanna say they are a "meek shall inherit the earth" type of group, but this theory makes me rethink my original stance. The only thing is they don't seem to be willingly embracing the pain and suffering, just seem to be merely trying to survive.

[Daeghrefn]

Someone, I believe it was Kettle in MT or RG, says that the Crippled God is not ready for people to go into the east "where all the secrets are," or something like that. My guess is that the CG has a shaved knuckle that most characters (and us) are unaware of in Kolanse, probably involving the Forkrul Assail or the Liosan and their respective warrens. I think things are going to go seriously wrong for the anti-CG alliance when the secrets of Kolanse are revealed, because whatever happens will be something that no one is prepared for.

[foolio]

I sure do hope that this last book doesnt turn into a story about how the poor old crippled god is really a sympathetic victim and really the hero of the series type of revisionist "surprise".

[blackzoid]

Actually I hope that the ending of the book does show that the CG is somewhat sympathetic.
I much prefer the idea of multiple somewhat evil god characters rather than just one big bad.
And as Quick Ben said, all of the Crippled God's tactics have been of a defensive nature.

"The Crippled Gods been busy, but his efforts have been, without exception, defensive, for the Fallen One also happens to know what is coming. The bastards desperate, probably terrifed and thus far, he has failed more often then succeeded."

The Crippled God is not entirely a villian (he was drawn into the world and chained against his will. Never mind his subsequent actions, he was a victim at the start) and the worlds native Gods/Ascendents are certainly not all good. (Knuckles and Killy wanting to destroy the world, independently of any CG manipulation...so far). Its all a glorious shade of grey.

EDIT: Mesan's Saddle, I really, really like that idea of "Held" being the actual heart of the CG that is being smuggled out of Kolanse by the Snake. That theory just makes too much sense.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 09 June 2010 - 03:37 PM

[Abyss]

Aptorian, on 07 June 2010 - 12:44 PM, said:

An idea struck me the other day regarding Kolanse.

In Dust of Dreams we learn that a big chunk of the CG fell on a peninsula of Lether....What strikes me as odd is that the CG seemingly had no interest in it earlier in the book. ...

My thought on this is that everything else he's been up to was a massive series of bluffs and misdirects to keep attention away from whatever he was setting up in Kolanse.

I know that makes the Pannion and Leth campaigns seem rather pointless, but that IS the point.

masan, on 07 June 2010 - 01:10 PM, said:

...I thought that Held was a physical manifestation / part of the CG ...

Y'know... that's a VERY clever theory.
we already have Kettle as an example of a seed-in-child-form.

Daeghrefn, on 08 June 2010 - 12:49 AM, said:

...I think things are going to go seriously wrong for the anti-CG alliance when the secrets of Kolanse are revealed, because whatever happens will be something that no one is prepared for.

Further complicated by the notion that Tavore's intention was to FREE him. or at least cut the chains.

And then we have the EGs on the way to free the Otti Dragon, seemingly in the same direction. Hmmm...

blackzoid, on 09 June 2010 - 03:33 PM, said:

...as Quick Ben said, all of the Crippled God's tactics have been of a defensive nature.

"The Crippled Gods been busy, but his efforts have been, without exception, defensive, for the Fallen One also happens to know what is coming. The bastards desperate, probably terrifed and thus far, he has failed more often then succeeded."...

Unless per above it's all part of his diabolical ultimate master uber plan!!!

- Abyss, notes any worthwhile plan is diabolical...

[foolio]

I am not really understanding how the Pannion Domin was defensive. Or poisoning Burn thereby trying to destroy the world is defensive.

And, just personally, I think the "he was originally the victim arguement", while true, is as lame as rapists saying they were abused as children and thinking that is somehow an excuse for their actions.

[D'rek]

foolio, on 09 June 2010 - 04:16 PM, said:

I am not really understanding how the Pannion Domin was defensive. Or poisoning Burn thereby trying to destroy the world is defensive.

And, just personally, I think the "he was originally the victim arguement", while true, is as lame as rapists saying they were abused as children and thinking that is somehow an excuse for their actions.

More of a counter-offensive, imo. The Pannion Domin spreads in every direction and within its influence the warrens are poisoned so they cant be used againt the CG I guess...?

[blackzoid]

Well, I don't understand how the Pannion campaign could be defensive either, but the Lether campaign does take place on the same continent as Kolanse so that may have fallen somewhat into the "defensive" catagory as Quick Ben put it. course then, the Edur should not have put out their fleets and alerted everyone to the existance of Lether, but sure no statement by any character in a SE book is 100% true with the objective facts. Quick Ben may only have been saying what HE thought as opposed to what the CG was actually attempting to do.

No argument from me on the CG having any justification for his actions since his arrival, but regardless of the moral argument, the Crippled God WAS a victim at the start. He may have become a somewhat Dark Lord like character, but at the begining he was a happy little God in some other world.

And that doesn't make the current native Gods/Ascendents any more "Good". Examples of Kallor, Killy, Knuckles, Draconous in the good old days, seemingly the entire FA race, various Jaghut Tyrants, some of the KCCM/KCNR etc. I don't think the CG is any more evil than any of those. I mean I keep banging on about the fact that Karsa effectively wants to do the same thing as the Pannion Domin (commit world wide genocide...without the cannibalism I guess). Yet Karsa is still thought of as one of the good guys . It helps that he hasn't actually destroyed civilisation yet, but he keeps mentioning it. I see no difference between the CG and Karsa (in his potential future actions, not his current ones. Although Karsa has commited rape.)

And understanding of the CG's motivations/victimhood does not equal absolution for his own actions or even make him a "Good Guy".

EDIT: Actually, I think that a good template for the CG in the final book may be Kallor's treatment in TTH. Understanding of the character through his POV but not forgiveness for his actions. He is simply another somewhat dark-greyish character involved in a story with many other grey/dark-grey characters. Also, Kallor probably has killed more in the extermination of Jacuraku than the CG did in the Lether and Pannion campaigns. Yet I (somewhat) feel pity for Kallor by the end of TTH.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 09 June 2010 - 04:54 PM

[foolio]

I dont mind there being some sort of grey with TCG, but I just dont want all that we have seen so far be revised all for a surprising "twist" or "gotch moment".

I felt no pity for Kallor. My humble opinion is that he is pure scum and an outright villain. I am dumbstruck that he is still alive and I feel this defies logic. It seems like the "good guys" have a bad case of alzheimers. It seems as if Erikson just absolutely fell in love with the character and will not let go. I will never, EVER, understand how a swing of a sword logistically can kill a Dragon. Thats a discussion for another day though.

And I somewhat agree with Karsa being a villain. But he does have the redeeming quality of wanting to break chains and free oppressed peoples. While his wish of destroying civilization will most certainly be an evil act I think his intentions are mostly good.

And I certainly agree that Killy, Setch, and the Errant are just as bad as any Villains I can think of....

[Abyss]

In the Pannion campaign, initially the Domin was on the offensive but eventually various forces struck back and from there it was simply a question of who would neutralize the Seer and when.

Similarly, poisoning Burn was a distratcion. The CG had to know it wouldn't work forever.

Finally Leth. Having seized the Empire, Rhulad became a useless puppet and other forces mobilized to take out the Edur occupation.

All initially 'offensive' but then restricted to 'defence' at best. No end game.

Of course, those are just the three we know about.... there's also the Crippled God cults referred to in a novella, as well as the Unbound corruption of the Teblor, the Cult in Darujhstan, the Plague Cult on 7C...

[Daeghrefn]

It's interesting to consider how successful the CG has been in his plans so far. Characters have speculated that his only desire is to cause pain and suffering on the level that has been inflicted upon him, and while I'm fairly certain he has other motivations beyond sheer spite, many of his actions seem to be intended only to cause the most devastation possible, even when the CG "loses" the battle.

On Genabackis the Pannion Domin was defeated, but the southeastern realms under its control were effectively destroyed.
On Seven Cities, the Whirlwind, while ultimately unsuccessful, resulted in thousands, perhaps millions of deaths from the uprisings, wars and ensuing plague.
On Lether, Rhulad's empire crumbled, but the Tiste Edur are ruined as a people, and countless others are dead. Moreover, Rhulad's creation of the Nascent effectively destroyed two worlds - the realm into which the river flowed was drowned, and I have to think that the Kenryll'ah world has also been severely damaged by the redirection of such an important source of food, water and transportation.

On another note, the Kenryll'ah are (per MT) apparently at war with another species called the Korvalah (I may be spelling that wrong). I wonder if there is any connection to the Forkrul Assail warren, Ahkrast Korvalain, that we learn about in DoD? Are the Kenryll'ah warring with the Forkrul Assail, and if so, does this mean that that world is the FA's original home, or have they colonized it? EDIT: Looks like I was on the wrong track here - I just got to the part in MT where the Sengars and the Kenryll'ah fight Serenity, and the Kenryll'ah say that they have never heard of the Forkrul Assail before.

Regardless, I think that if the CG's plan was simply to cause massive destruction, he has been very successful thus far.

This post has been edited by Daeghrefn: 10 June 2010 - 01:08 AM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Daeghrefn, on 09 June 2010 - 10:29 PM, said:

It's interesting to consider how successful the CG has been in his plans so far. Characters have speculated that his only desire is to cause pain and suffering on the level that has been inflicted upon him, and while I'm fairly certain he has other motivations beyond sheer spite, many of his actions seem to be intended only to cause the most devastation possible, even when the CG "loses" the battle.

On Genabackis the Pannion Domin was defeated, but the southeastern realms under its control were effectively destroyed.
On Seven Cities, the Whirlwind, while ultimately unsuccessful, resulted in thousands, perhaps millions of deaths from the uprisings, wars and ensuing plague.
On Lether, Rhulad's empire crumbled, but the Tiste Edur are ruined as a people, and countless others are dead. Moreover, Rhulad's creation of the Nascent effectively destroyed two worlds - the realm into which the river flowed was drowned, and I have to think that the Kenryll'ah world has also been severely damaged by the redirection of such an important source of food, water and transportation.

On another note, the Kenryll'ah are (per MT) apparently at war with another species called the Korvalah (I may be spelling that wrong). I wonder if there is any connection to the Forkrul Assail warren, Ahkrast Korvalain, that we learn about in DoD? Are the Kenryll'ah warring with the Forkrul Assail, and if so, does this mean that that world is the FA's original home, or have they colonized it? EDIT: Looks like I was on the wrong track here - I just got to the part in MT where the Sengars and the Kenryll'ah fight Serenity, and the Kenryll'ah say that they have never heard of the Forkrul Assail before.

Regardless, I think that if the CG's plan was simply to cause massive destruction, he has been very successful thus far.

Actually Korvalah are just another race of demons like the Kenryll'ah. I believe Pearl (the one that gets killed by Rake and trapped in Dragnipur) is the only one we see.

On the AK note I have a theory that it is the elder warren of Mockra.

[Seras]

Since we're throwing around crazy theories here, I've had these stuck in my a head for a while. They might sound stupid, but what the hell

Remember at the start of DoD, there was a part where Hebroic was like "He understood now. The gods of war and what they meant, what their very existence signified. And as he stared upon those jade suns searing every closer, he was overwhelmed by the futility hiding behind all this arrogance, this mindless conceit. See us wave our banners of hate. See where it gets us. A final war had begun. Facing an enemy against whom no defence was possible. Neither words nor deeds could fool this clear-eyed arbiter. Immune to lies, indifferent to excuses and vapid discourses on necessity, on the weighing of two evils and the facile righteousness on choosing the lesser one - and yes, these were the arguments he was hearing, empty as the ether they traveled. We stood tall in paradise. And then called forth the gods of war, to bring destruction down upon ourselves, our world, the very earth, its very air, its water, its myriad life. No, show me no surprise, no innocent bewilderment. I see now with the eyes of the Abyss. I see now with my enemy's eyes, and so, I shall speak with its voice. Behold my friends, I am justice. And when at last we meet, you will not like it. And if irony awakens in you at the end, see me weep with these tears of jade, and answer with a smile. If you've the courage. Have you, my friends, the courage?"

1) So, could it be possible that Ahkrast Korvalain is the home-realm of the CG (or at the very least, connected to CG in some way), seeing as the FA are all for justice, which also appears to be the case with the Jade Giants?

2) I remember a part in MoI where Rake gave Korlat leave to command all the Andii upon Kallor if he were to go for Silverfox, and Korlat mentioned something about how the Andii present at the Chaining destroyed the CG's realm. Don't think any of the FA I've read about so far have used magic either, might be why?

3) Since everything seems to revolve around Kolanse, I think it would be a safe guess that the Jade Swords in the sky would also uh, land there. Delivering their version of justice to the FA who have lost their way, perhaps? (Think back to the part where Gothos had a conversation with Kilamandaros, shortly before she killed Scabandari. When Gothos keeps the Finnest for himself, Kila says something along the lines of 'I'm tempted to send my children after you' to which Gothos replies 'Too bad they lost their way')

This post has been edited by Erayle: 10 June 2010 - 06:52 AM

[Ulrik]

Pannion Domin for CG actually worked. He didnt have to conquer and eat (literally) whole continent. He needed post-war mess. In that, new religion, basen of sanctifying of suffering can pretty easily grow - as we see in TtH. Only thing he need is worshippers and he has plenty of new worshippers. This part is CG´s win.

Also, I dont lbelieve he´ll turn into "good guy". He is victim...but still is pretty cruel (and as we many times saw, many times is power of god derived from nature of worshipper - like Mael having lil problems with healing). If his main worshippers in Kolanse was FA with their dual vision of world (good/ bad ->kill it), some new power of "worship power" can be useful. Also his intention "kill magic and all life with it" can be some stupid FA´s judgment.

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 10 June 2010 - 07:00 AM

[The Seguleh 46th]

foolio, on 09 June 2010 - 04:16 PM, said:

I am not really understanding how the Pannion Domin was defensive. Or poisoning Burn thereby trying to destroy the world is defensive.

I think its defensive in the respect that he knew that people, Gods, Ascendents, etc. would be forced to act. He had to know it wouldn't succeed, hence maybe it worked into the longer scheme of his plan, whtaever that may be. The Lether campaign however, might have been more of a checkmate move on his part, what with a basically unkillable Emperor and all. He seemed surprised (to me anyway) when it was his own Knight (do i have it right here? well, whatever title Karsa holds in House of Chains) who ended up slaying Rhulad and delivering the body to his island.

Also, i do tend to syphmathize with him, to a small degree anyhow, no more or less anyhow than any other character that could be considered "hateable". Is he what we would call "Evil"? Most likely, but every character in this series could be considered such in that right as well at one time or another. Cutter by merely being an assassin is in essence a murderer, WJ has commanded armies that have obliterated civilizations and ripped apart families in the name of mere conquest, Dassem in his single-minded focus of vengeance, Kallor's continent of flame, Gothos' icing over of prehistoric Lether, etc., etc., etc...........the list is huge!


Sorry, got off topic a bit there!

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 10 June 2010 - 10:19 AM

[foolio]

something that some might find interesting. In RG when Setch answers the Azath door for Bruthen Trana at the , he says "you are Edur, from the crippled gods kingdom, well one of them anyway..." Implying there are other kingdoms under his sway. No huge shock but nonetheless interesting.


Also , I am thinking that somehow healing the crippled god might somehow take away his power. I dont necesarily think it will make him peaceful, but I think his pain is almost a source of his power. The more he hurts the more powerful he becomes. (edit start)Which I think somehow translates to the Jade Giants. I am going to go completely off the reservation here, but we see the green shield blossom up to deflect/ block the jade giants when Heboric realizes he is shield anvil, effectively saving the world. But what he really did was take their pain and suffering away. What if taking away the pain is really what rendered them somewhat harmless. Like all that pain and suffering in the Jade Giants manifests in destructive power. And of course they are related to the crippled god.


It wouldnt surprise me if the tCG ends with a crazier Heboric "Chained".

This post has been edited by foolio: 10 June 2010 - 01:20 PM

[Ulrik]

foolio, on 10 June 2010 - 01:07 PM, said:

Also , I am thinking that somehow healing the crippled god might somehow take away his power. I dont necesarily think it will make him peaceful, but I think his pain is almost a source of his power. The more he hurts the more powerful he becomes.

My quote-fu is weak, but from some dialogues with Mael and Kruppes thoughts in TtH is character and power of god strongly connected to kind of worship. That CG could be healed if he has different "attitude" and more importantly different worshippers. He is IMO locked in circle of pain. To posses godly power (and not diminish like K´rul) he has to unleash pain and torment to world...and when it seeded and grown, there isnt force in that power, that could heal him. Not from this worshippers, not from this style of "agitation" from CG.