[Deep Squat]

Hey Mojo, you're not alone in finding the third person thing annoying, i hated it, but funnily enough by MoI i started liking Kruppe heaps, maybe you'll go through the same. I literally went from almost tearing the page out (bit extreme i know, must have been a bad day at work) to thinking he was an awesome character. All i can say is I hope you enjoy and keep reading! I'm on house of chains now, and the start is great.

I picture tattersail as this great curvy sultry lady, and yes its cool.

I read most of Game of Thrones and thought the writing was great, and so was the story telling, but in terms of fantasy I like just a bit more magic than he was giving me. I then decided to read half of Gardens of the Moon and then decide which one, well here i am. Although I thought at first that Erikson was towards the other end of almost too much magic, he handles it well and it's some of the coolest stuff I've ever read. I have never read battles done as well as they are by Erikson.

[mojojojo]

so moving (slowly) right along through the book, i was wondering if anyone could help me and explain something to me? why did the rope leave sorry? parran seems to know why from a conversation he had with shadowthrone, but i didn't understand the implications.

also, do we know who it was who mugged the tiste andii who was waiting outside the inn to kill crokus? i think her name was serat or something, but she's supposed to be the next powerful after anomander rake.

i don't know if i was too tired to comprehend everything last night or if some of these are supposed to be mysteries. thanks, and its great to meet all of you!

~Joanna~

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Basically Rake threatened Shadowthrone and killed two of his hounds. ST didn't want to risk and told the Rope to leave Sorry.

As for the guy who mugged Serrat, it would be told later but I guide you to the conversation between Brood and Crone where Brood asks her what she knows of the Crimson Guard.

[Beezulbubba]

I didn't struggle with the concept of warrens so much (due to the glossary at the end of the book), so much as what the hell a Finnest is or an Azath house is.

I am almost finished with MOI and have come to appreciate that SE doesn't reveal all, and you have to read on to find out more. RAFO (more then any other author) applies to SE's Malazan Book of the Fallen series..... stay with it, it is worth it!

[SalokinX]

Deep Squat, on 03 June 2010 - 12:55 AM, said:

I read most of Game of Thrones and thought the writing was great, and so was the story telling, but in terms of fantasy I like just a bit more magic than he was giving me. I then decided to read half of Gardens of the Moon and then decide which one, well here i am. Although I thought at first that Erikson was towards the other end of almost too much magic, he handles it well and it's some of the coolest stuff I've ever read. I have never read battles done as well as they are by Erikson.

Wow, really? I thought he gave too much magic. This is one of the most magical stories I've ever read. I like books with little fantasy, but I noticed that once you get used to the amount of magic in Erikson's world, you realize it's balanced (at least in between the powerful mages).

mojojojo, on 03 June 2010 - 04:36 PM, said:

so moving (slowly) right along through the book, i was wondering if anyone could help me and explain something to me? why did the rope leave sorry? parran seems to know why from a conversation he had with shadowthrone, but i didn't understand the implications.

Well, basically what happened was Anomander Rake said "if you don't quit the game and take the Rope with you, we will fight and it will cost you greatly" and Shadowthrone knew that even if he won the battle against the Tiste Andii he would suffer major consequences (2 of his Hounds were already killed - and trapped - by Anomander, and more would die).

mojojojo, on 03 June 2010 - 04:36 PM, said:

also, do we know who it was who mugged the tiste andii who was waiting outside the inn to kill crokus? i think her name was serat or something, but she's supposed to be the next powerful after anomander rake.

i don't know if i was too tired to comprehend everything last night or if some of these are supposed to be mysteries. thanks, and its great to meet all of you!

~Joanna~

Yeah. If you are not with the book yet, this may be a spoiler. This conversation happened less than 50 pages from the end.

Spoiler

Quote

'We've been covering your back, Coin Bearer.' The man's other hand reached up to his collar, which he turned back to reveal a brooch. 'The name's Fingers, Sixth Blade, Crimson Guard. You're being protected, boy, compliments of Prince K'azz and Caladan Brood.'

[Defiance]

SalokinX, on 03 June 2010 - 07:08 PM, said:

Deep Squat, on 03 June 2010 - 12:55 AM, said:

I read most of Game of Thrones and thought the writing was great, and so was the story telling, but in terms of fantasy I like just a bit more magic than he was giving me. I then decided to read half of Gardens of the Moon and then decide which one, well here i am. Although I thought at first that Erikson was towards the other end of almost too much magic, he handles it well and it's some of the coolest stuff I've ever read. I have never read battles done as well as they are by Erikson.

Wow, really? I thought he gave too much magic. This is one of the most magical stories I've ever read. I like books with little fantasy, but I noticed that once you get used to the amount of magic in Erikson's world, you realize it's balanced (at least in between the powerful mages).

I think you either thought he was talking about Gardens of the Moon, or you're just plain crazy. Martin has so little magic in his books, especially in Game of Thrones. If he had any less in the books it wouldn't even exist.

I really like Martin and Erikson because the represent opposite sides of the magical spectrum. When I read Martin's works I'm never expecting magic, and when it does pop up it's extremely intruiging because there's so much mystery to it, as well as the fact that it's never used as deux ex machina. Erikson's world is obviously brimming with magic, but I love this as well. Despite how much it appears, battles with it are still badass and I find the gods and warrens extremely interesting.

[SalokinX]

Defiance, on 03 June 2010 - 08:28 PM, said:

I think you either thought he was talking about Gardens of the Moon, or you're just plain crazy. Martin has so little magic in his books, especially in Game of Thrones. If he had any less in the books it wouldn't even exist.

I really like Martin and Erikson because the represent opposite sides of the magical spectrum. When I read Martin's works I'm never expecting magic, and when it does pop up it's extremely intruiging because there's so much mystery to it, as well as the fact that it's never used as deux ex machina. Erikson's world is obviously brimming with magic, but I love this as well. Despite how much it appears, battles with it are still badass and I find the gods and warrens extremely interesting.

Yes, true, I did think we were talking about Gardens of the Moon. In regard to Martin's A Game of Thrones the fantasy was nearly 0, which I liked. The only thing that made that book fantasy at all was the prologue talking about the Others, basically.

So far I'm not in a position to compare the two authors, since I am not even nearly as intrigued by the story (The Malazan Book of the Fallen) as I was with A Song of Ice and Fire, so I'll stick to the reading and will hopefully get addicted and in love to this series in a depth to match Martin's own series.

[mojojojo]

I remember Rake telling Shadowthrone to butt out and I'm guessing he doesn't know yet that Parran actually freed the hounds. How the heck was he able to force one of the Oponn twins in there? Because of his sword, or is that also something that I find out later and/or kinda irrelevant? *what is this friggin game?* Is that one of the questions that hasn't been answered yet? From what I gather its the gods and their one-upmanship so to speak amongst each other, using humans to f- with each other. Like Oponn seems to not want to do anything but stir up some trouble and then laugh from the sidelines.

I can understand wanting to protect some of the characters, but Crokus? what the heck? that seems random to me.

As for as ASOIAF, I have to agree, there's barely magic, but it would have been nice to have more action with The Others. Plus of course, dear old Qyburn...I want to know what Qyburn is making in the dungeon, dammit!

~Joanna

[amphibian]

mojojojo, on 04 June 2010 - 05:09 AM, said:

I remember Rake telling Shadowthrone to butt out and I'm guessing he doesn't know yet that Parran actually freed the hounds. How the heck was he able to force one of the Oponn twins in there? Because of his sword, or is that also something that I find out later and/or kinda irrelevant? *what is this friggin game?* Is that one of the questions that hasn't been answered yet? From what I gather its the gods and their one-upmanship so to speak amongst each other, using humans to f- with each other. Like Oponn seems to not want to do anything but stir up some trouble and then laugh from the sidelines.

I can understand wanting to protect some of the characters, but Crokus? what the heck? that seems random to me.

Because of the circumstances surrounding Tattersail's death, the warring factions and the chaotic relationships and positions that the gods and mortals are in, Paran has become special. It's mostly an accident that it happened to him, but he's got abilities that allow him to do some truly kooky stuff. He was able to draw Oponn in that time because of his unusually strong connection with the Twins.

The "game" is the clashing of the gods and mortals trying to implement short-term and long-term plans (spanning hundreds, thousands and/or millions of years) and across entire worlds. Many have very specific goals that may be at odds with those of others. It's like a giant game of Risk, but with way more players entering, playing and dying (and ambushes too - lots of ambushes). Some players are incredibly powerful and can truly change the entire game, but most have settled into kind of a slow, grinding war with small changes, really subtle plans and lots of attempted sabotage.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

mojojojo, on 04 June 2010 - 05:09 AM, said:

I can understand wanting to protect some of the characters, but Crokus? what the heck? that seems random to me.

That's because Crokus has Opponn's Coin. That's why he's been lucky and that's why the Andii decided to kill him

[Defiance]

mojojojo, on 04 June 2010 - 05:09 AM, said:

I remember Rake telling Shadowthrone to butt out and I'm guessing he doesn't know yet that Parran actually freed the hounds. How the heck was he able to force one of the Oponn twins in there? Because of his sword, or is that also something that I find out later and/or kinda irrelevant? *what is this friggin game?* Is that one of the questions that hasn't been answered yet? From what I gather its the gods and their one-upmanship so to speak amongst each other, using humans to f- with each other. Like Oponn seems to not want to do anything but stir up some trouble and then laugh from the sidelines.

I can understand wanting to protect some of the characters, but Crokus? what the heck? that seems random to me.

As for as ASOIAF, I have to agree, there's barely magic, but it would have been nice to have more action with The Others. Plus of course, dear old Qyburn...I want to know what Qyburn is making in the dungeon, dammit!

~Joanna

I saw the Oponn thing partially as partially because of his sword, and partially something else you'll find out later.

As for what Qyburn is making, zombie Gregor is my guess.

[Garak]

Because normal Gregor was just too cute and cuddly. This sort of reminds me of 40k, as in - You think this is bad? Just give it two second and it'll get worse. And worse. And worse. And ... you get the picture.

[SalokinX]

From the description of Gregor, he was a zombie on its own. He barely felt pain, anyway... They are only making him immune to poison and blood-less, the rest is the same, I bet.

[mojojojo]

Wow. So I just finished reading the scene with the Tyrant and the bloodbath at the Fete. Was this meant to be so confusing?!?!

What the heck is a Finnest? I thought it was just a little acorn of power...then it grew into a...house with roots?!?
An Azath? Huh? where did that come from?
The whole Tyrant possessing Mammot and Quick Ben/Witch/Azath/Finnest mixed in with a bit of Parran was really, really, confusing and made absolutely no sense to me. I do get that Tyrant needed a body so Mammot was the poor victim. What did Hedge do? At the end it seemed from his conversation with Quick Ben that he did something to save everyone, but I missed that totally. I did understand that although I don't understand the magical system that Quick Ben is a total badass and apparently has 7 warrens, which is totally unheard of. So he must be a really powerful wizard and just hiding it for some reason. Who was that witch he saved twice and why her? I thought he was jumping at her to kill her when I was reading it!

Was it insinuated somewhere that Mammot or Kruppe ad some point had a bit of Imass blood in them, or was that the Tyrant sniffing Tool staking out the barrow nearby. And what happened to T'oolon? Is he dead?

Did anyone else find this part a bit confusing the first read through, and will it ever make sense after reading more books? Sorry if I'm a mental midget for asking all these questions. I find myself reading like 30 pages at a time because I keep rereading stuff over and over because of this sort of thing.

[SalokinX]

mojojojo, on 06 June 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

Wow. So I just finished reading the scene with the Tyrant and the bloodbath at the Fete. Was this meant to be so confusing?!?!

What the heck is a Finnest? I thought it was just a little acorn of power...then it grew into a...house with roots?!?
An Azath? Huh? where did that come from?

Well, to avoid spoilers, I'll just say what I remember reading in Gardens of the Moon. Azath is a power that exists to contain powerful beings. Notice how it "held" the tyrant. The tyrant was too powerful, hence he was a threat to the world itself (or so I understand).

The Finnest is the source of power of the Tyrant, so the Azath tried to imprison it, by making a house around it (or so I understand).

mojojojo, on 06 June 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

The whole Tyrant possessing Mammot and Quick Ben/Witch/Azath/Finnest mixed in with a bit of Parran was really, really, confusing and made absolutely no sense to me. I do get that Tyrant needed a body so Mammot was the poor victim. What did Hedge do? At the end it seemed from his conversation with Quick Ben that he did something to save everyone, but I missed that totally. I did understand that although I don't understand the magical system that Quick Ben is a total badass and apparently has 7 warrens, which is totally unheard of. So he must be a really powerful wizard and just hiding it for some reason. Who was that witch he saved twice and why her? I thought he was jumping at her to kill her when I was reading it!

Hedge simply threw one of his bombs and splattered the Tyrant to pieces, which gained everyone some time. Quick Ben will be explained a bit further on book3, Memories of Ice. It is a mystery why he is so powerful, but it will make sense. The witch was simply a witch that he didn't want to see dead, I guess. Just like someone might push you out of the way of a car, he pushed her out of the way of the Tyrant.

mojojojo, on 06 June 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

Was it insinuated somewhere that Mammot or Kruppe ad some point had a bit of Imass blood in them, or was that the Tyrant sniffing Tool staking out the barrow nearby. And what happened to T'oolon? Is he dead?

Hmmm, I know that Kruppe and Mammot don't have T'lann Imass blood. The rest of the question I don't really get it. T'lan Imass are undead creatures. They can be split to pieces, broken a part, but they will never die. But why do you ask? I don't remember him doing anything dangerous after releasing the Tyrant...

mojojojo, on 06 June 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

Did anyone else find this part a bit confusing the first read through, and will it ever make sense after reading more books? Sorry if I'm a mental midget for asking all these questions. I find myself reading like 30 pages at a time because I keep rereading stuff over and over because of this sort of thing.

I didn't really get confused, but I found it very helpful to use a dictionary when reading. If you don't understand ANY word, try to look up the meaning. After I started doing this the book got much more interesting and less confusing, not to mention my vocabulary has improved.

This post has been edited by SalokinX: 06 June 2010 - 03:38 PM

[mojojojo]

Thanks, SalokinX for the help!

I'm sure plenty of people come in here and ask tons of questions pertaining to their confused reading experience. The vocabulary isn't really what makes my head spin, I am reading it on my nook so I do actually look up words I don't know as I read with ease, but many of the words as you know can be figured out by the context. Its more of the Sci-Fi/Fantasy vocabulary of Erikson's made up world that gives me pause. Like the words he keeps saying to the Azath. And the dragons say the same thing too, something like Azath Eleinthei? and they say it with the upper case like a pronoun as well as lower case. I think once the little red dragon said something like Eleinth elienthesi? I should have bookmarked the page but the phrase is said as soon as Tyrant wakes up and then again when they are killing him.

I asked about T'oolon a bit out of context. Remember when Tyrant wakes up and he's in the dessert and also in Kruppe's dream? He said he smells Imass blood, but perhaps he was smelling Tool who was nearby the barrow waiting for him. He was talking to Kruppe at the time so it was confusing.

Also, speaking of Kruppe's dream, right after Tyrant disappears to find his Finnest- and your description was pretty much what I imagined it was, so thank you again for that- Kruppe walks over to the red dragon and they share a moment that was strange and mysterious too. The narration was something like "Kruppe saw what (red dragon's name) saw" and I think it had something to do with the face of the Tyrant. Perhaps they knew who he possessed next.

Poor Uncle Mammot. That was sad. Was there any particular reason why he picked him, or was he just a random victim?

-A BRICK?! How does Crokus kill, or seriously maim Vorcan with a *brick* when none of the other weapons, like Serrat's knife worked? That didn't make much sense. I get she's a sorceress and all, but if she can prevent a knife, surely she can prevent a brick to the head! And why did Crokus toss his coin out? His luck didn't turn on the boat, did it?

Is the Crimson Guard the soldier guard of this Prince K'azz? He's someone we haven't met yet, right?

See, just read the next 30 pages (and end of the book) and look how many more questions I have! lol

Again, I appreciate all the feedback and help. I finished Gardens this morning. I'm assuming Deadhouse Gates is about the little house in the garden? Now that was mysterious how the Tiste Andii (except Serrat's sister) wanted to tear down the house. It seemed like it did a good thing. Should I read Deadhouse Gates next or Memories of Ice. Someone told me Deadhouse had a totally different cast of characters so I'm a little weary to learn more names.

~Joanna

[Bauchelain the Evil]

The brick was guided by Opponn. Also Vorcan was busy attacking Baruk and Derudan.

Crokus threw the Coin because nobody knows when the coin's luck would turn. What would happen if suddenly he became incredibly unlucky? Remember Gods are fickle, and no one more than Opponn.

No. Deadhouse Gates is set in a completely different continent. The Azath in Daruhjistanisn't the only one. Korlat wanted to destroy it because Azath don't seem to reason in terms of good or bad. Any powerful beings near it are in danger. Korlat was think about the Andii and especially Rake.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 06 June 2010 - 04:54 PM

[mojojojo]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 06 June 2010 - 04:53 PM, said:

No. Deadhouse Gates is set in a completely different continent. The Azath in Daruhjistanisn't the only one. Korlat wanted to destroy it because Azath don't seem to reason in terms of good or bad. Any powerful beings near it are in danger. Korlat was think about the Andii and especially Rake.

Oh, good point! You know, I need to trust my intuition more when reading. Rake was the reason I thought she said that also for a second, but I thought perhaps Tyrant was way more powerful than Rake since he even admitted it would hurt him to defeat it. Was this Azath in the Finnest somehow? How did Azath pop up out of nowhere? That seemed a bit random, or did Whiskey Ben guide it there somehow? I realized sneaky Adjunct guided the Tyrant to the garden by planting the Finnest there, but I don't remember Azath being part of the plan. You know, I enjoyed reading the parts with Adjunct. It was great to read the inner turmoil she had with herself, trying to identify herself as being an extension of the Empress (who we've yet to meet!) and the woman Lorn. It would have been nice to keep her around a little bit longer because I would have liked to see her develop. I think it would have been nice for her to abandon ship and run away with Tool!

I was also very disappointed when Toc the Younger vanished. I'm holding onto hope he appears again someday, found wandering in a warren somewhere.

[mojojojo]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 06 June 2010 - 04:53 PM, said:

Crokus threw the Coin because nobody knows when the coin's luck would turn. What would happen if suddenly he became incredibly unlucky? Remember Gods are fickle, and no one more than Opponn.

Another good point. you wouldn't want any bad luck to happen to you while you are at sea on a tiny boat, huh? Or traveling two continents. I hope Apsalar/Sorry finds her dad, they said they'd keep him alive. I think its kind of funny that the Rope named the girl Sorry. Its ironic given he is the god of Assassins.

About Oponn though...I get that Crokus held the coin which was Oponn's tool, so to speak, but wasn't it kind of random of Oponn to just let the coin fall out of the air and appear in front of the boy? But I guess that's what dumb luck is all about. I personally like Oponn.

[mojojojo]

you know what else led to my confusion?

i skipped over the Dramatis Personae and went to the prologue/introduction- wherever the first part of the story was written. I should have taken note and then flipped through it back and forth as I was reading and learning more characters. This is great that its there, now I won't have to take notes! Its like a play with a cast of characters for you for your convenience. I suppose Erikson kind of has to do that otherwise it would be difficult to keep it all straight.

I can't believe I'm done now! I guess I'll start Deadhouse, although I'm tempted to skip it and start MOI because I've read more than once that its sometimes recommended to people to read MOI before they read any of the other books! It must be good.

Can anyone also tell me what the abbreveiation RAFO means? I'm guessing it means something like keep reading because the people who use the acronym are usually complaining about the book not picking up, or the people who are giving advice and telling them to keep sticking with it. I guess I'll be seeing you guys again in the Deadhouse Gates forum! (or Memories...we shall see)