[Magnus the Historian]

I will admit to being a little bit PO'd when Duiker died.
...
Ok I was very PO'd, for me Duiker was one of the best characters in the story and I really am glad that he at least killed a noble prick with his shoe before he died.

Spoiler

Gesler, Stormy, and Truth looking and not finding his body did give me some hope though... As well as the monkey watchamacallits.

[Prophet of Daru]

Lusipher, on 02 June 2010 - 05:11 PM, said:

I think Duiker's death is meant to be taken on a more symbolic level as opposed to Coltaine's visceral. Of course Coltaine's death is supposed to elicit that response because here he is, 100 or so yards away from Aren, being struck down after leading a substantial number of people to safety when they would have more than likely been killed otherwise.

Agreed.

I just finished DG TODAY, and both deaths created a discomfort of injustice in very different ways.

Coltaine's martyrdom as a warrior was right, but it happening within sight of salvation was not. Duiker knew as he left the gates of Aren that he went to his death.

Though I was naturally saddened by the two important character's deaths, I was also a bit put off by the way that SE was able to kill both characters, but not able to let either go - especially Coltaine. I did not feel that Duiker could truly die, as it was clearly foreshadowed throughout that there would be great injustice and mythos to the story of the Chain of Dogs that had to be told, but it seemed that Coltaine was meant for this story... clearly he's being founded for further development, since he was not well developed here.

I have a few other pondering questions I may have to thread after I have a think or two.

[Braden]

Duiker's death to me was a display of the futility of it all. After the Chain’s march, its defiance, it took the weakness and stupidity (oh, and the corruption) of ONE person to steal nearly all that went before away.



Ultimately the glory of what Coltaine achieved was “cheapened” by the final act of the Fist (know his name, not the spelling, don’t have the book to hand..sorry) at Aren.



10,000 soldiers died with a whimper, not a bang. Duiker was one of them, a stark counter point to the several thousand who died with Coltaine during the march and at the end.



Besides, read the end of the book as well…its not “nothing”.

[Osserc - Lord of the Sky]

Braden, on 08 July 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

10,000 soldiers died with a whimper, not a bang. Duiker was one of them, a stark counter point to the several thousand who died with Coltaine during the march and at the end.

umm, I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't really find it as a "whimper", I found it as a symbolic and deep yet sad ending as the final blow towards the Chain of Dogs.
Sure, Coltaine's final stand was extremely sad, but Duiker and the other 10,000 deaths was the final, yet catastophic, blow.

[worry]

It's a figure of speech, going out with a bang vs. going out with a whimper.

[ansible]

Quote

T.S. Eliot - The Hollow Men, Part V

Here we go round the prickly pear
Prickly pear prickly pear
Here we go round the prickly pear
At five o'clock in the morning.

Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow

For Thine is the Kingdom

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow

Life is very long

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow

For Thine is the Kingdom

For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

[Tattersail_]

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 01:36 AM, said:

From what I gathered from the end of DG,

Spoiler

he's going to be resurrected anyway.

Not to mention that I just don't feel any emotional connection with any of the characters from SE's books. I don't know why...

While reading A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin I would go into a state of shock every time one of the characters died. Sometimes it wasn't even one of the point-of-view characters, and it still hit me like a mailed fist.

I wish I could feel this sensation again, but so far I have not.

everybody has their own opinion. i myself feel that se is the best fantasy writer out there. I have read so many different books from different authors and nothing compares! the red wedding? woopie do. have you read the full series? or are you just up to here? dg is great, but it just keeps getting better!

[waylander001]

Lousy, on 26 June 2010 - 01:27 AM, said:

worrywort, on 02 June 2010 - 05:30 PM, said:

The death of a good historian impacts the entire world!

So true! And this is what surprised my about Duiker being crucified at all! Who else is going to tell the story? (Well, other than SE) ... it all seems rather a waste, unless I am misunderstanding -- but I was of the impression that only official Historians could write of such events...??

Yes and .....

Spoiler

did not Duiker pass his writings to one of the young wickans towards the end of the the book, Temul i think his name might be???

[Siergiej]

Spoiler

I think he did, but Temul didn't show them to anyone. Not sure though.

[Osserc - Lord of the Sky]

worrywort, on 28 July 2010 - 08:02 PM, said:

It's a figure of speech, going out with a bang vs. going out with a whimper.

i am aware that it is a figure of speech, but as was my quote "the final catastrophic blow". what i'm trying to say is, is that to me; it didnt seem like a pointless "whimper" as you call it. I saw it as a shocking blow that "hit the wind out of the reader" after they were already greatly saddened by the final stand of coltaine.

[worry]

I see. But the point of it being a figure of speech is that you don't take it literally. I mean "figure of speech" in the literary sense (metaphor/personification/synecdoche/etc.). A "whimper" isn't pointless, it's a relative term to suggest they didn't go out in a blaze of glory, or "bang", but instead went rather passively. It has nothing to do with how it affected any reader. So I get the feeling that we're talking about two different points, not that we disagree on the same point.

[Braden]

Yeah, the two points are digressing somewhat. MY use of the phrase related to an entire army simply marching out and by betrayal, merely laying down their arms and then being crucified. A poignant moment and absolutely a damming depiction but if compared to the battle they thought they were marching out for...certainly a "whimper" rather than a "bang".

The fact that it is such a "whimper", for me, truly makes it that "final catastrophic blow" you mention.

This post has been edited by Braden: 23 August 2010 - 03:27 PM

[Osserc - Lord of the Sky]

Ok, i think we can relax now, after reading MoI the duiker...ordeal becomes...(trying not to use a spoiler) obsolete.

[Sarkaukar]

Osric - Lord of the Sky, on 13 November 2010 - 10:05 PM, said:

Ok,

This thread and others like it do make for some interesting reading, when all is said and done.

This post has been edited by Sarkaukar: 13 November 2010 - 11:35 PM

[The Kindly Man]

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 01:36 AM, said:

From what I gathered from the end of DG,

Spoiler

he's going to be resurrected anyway.

Not to mention that I just don't feel any emotional connection with any of the characters from SE's books. I don't know why...

While reading A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin I would go into a state of shock every time one of the characters died. Sometimes it wasn't even one of the point-of-view characters, and it still hit me like a mailed fist.

I wish I could feel this sensation again, but so far I have not.

Actually, I don't think it's really comparable.

To be clear, I consider GRRM's first three books (GoT, ACoK, ASoS) to be the best in the genre, and to have revolutionized fantasy and brought "realistic" fantasy onto the map,
which helped bring in quality writers like Abercrombie, Bakker and Lynch.

BUT... In GRRM's world, all I felt when people died was either rage or dark satisfaction (two times coupled with surprise - Ned Stark and Red Wedding).

At no point was I so emotionally struck as when Coltaine fell or at numerous other points in Erikson's tale.
It's not just surprise or rage or anger or happines. It's genuine sadness and some of the events are nearly heart-breaking.

[TronoSombrío]

I think Diuker death was important, because he was the only person who could tell what really happen in Chain of Dogs. I think when Duiker die, the real story die with him. No one would never know how heroic and strong was Coltaine, because the nobles were destroying his memories. I think Duiker die not only means the death of an old imperial historian, no, means the death of the force of will and duty of soldiers that have done the imposible for saving refugees. The TRUTH die too.

Well all that is what i think

[Kanese S's]

The Kindly Man, on 06 September 2011 - 09:46 AM, said:

SalokinX, on 02 June 2010 - 01:36 AM, said:

From what I gathered from the end of DG,

Spoiler

he's going to be resurrected anyway.

Not to mention that I just don't feel any emotional connection with any of the characters from SE's books. I don't know why...

While reading A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin I would go into a state of shock every time one of the characters died. Sometimes it wasn't even one of the point-of-view characters, and it still hit me like a mailed fist.

I wish I could feel this sensation again, but so far I have not.

Actually, I don't think it's really comparable.

To be clear, I consider GRRM's first three books (GoT, ACoK, ASoS) to be the best in the genre, and to have revolutionized fantasy and brought "realistic" fantasy onto the map,
which helped bring in quality writers like Abercrombie, Bakker and Lynch.

BUT... In GRRM's world, all I felt when people died was either rage or dark satisfaction (two times coupled with surprise - Ned Stark and Red Wedding).

At no point was I so emotionally struck as when Coltaine fell or at numerous other points in Erikson's tale.
It's not just surprise or rage or anger or happines. It's genuine sadness and some of the events are nearly heart-breaking.

I've been incredibly angry over character deaths in GRRM's works... but I don't think I've wept. This is not the case for Erikson's characters. Thinking back to the ending of Deadhouse Gates, I'm choking up a little even now.