[jaysen]

Who are these people? I finished this book months ago and am rereading the series now and have no idea who they are or why they're even a part of the story.
Is the vital information in who is after them or where they are headed?
What race or species are they?
The whole story seems unimportant but I'd like to think anything SE's adding into the series in the eve of the finale has some greater purpose than filling in half a book?

[Gothos]

They're survivors of some sort of purge carried out in Kolanse on the human population. Kids entirely. So, they're human kids running from hugry adult humans, hungry dogs and the Forkrul Assail.

[Abyss]

Gothos got the broad points but i'l throw in a bit more...

jaysen, on 19 May 2010 - 01:40 PM, said:

Who are these people?

Over in Kolanse the Forkrul Assail, possibly with friends, are killing off the human populations. For whatever reason, about 10k kids escaped, of whom about 6k survive all the way to Icarias iirc.

Pure speculation: the Forkrul that Badalle poetry slams are very different from the more 'alien' FA we've seen until then. The human population of Kolanse has been living with and breeding with FA for ages, leading to mixed blood kids who are mostly human but tougher, hence why the Snake makes it as far as it does.
Further speculation: HoC tells us that the FA and the Tiste Liosan once fought a war. The FA living in Kolanse are survivors of that war and liosan survivors lived there as well, also breeding with the humans (because in this world, people will shag ANYthing...).

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I finished this book months ago and am rereading the series now and have no idea who they are or why they're even a part of the story.

Trust in SE. SE is good. SE is great.

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Is the vital information in who is after them or where they are headed?

Speculation again but yes - we learn just how bad things were in Kolanse and that the FA are pretty much bugnuts. We also have Badalle, at the very least a Mokra High Mage, who might be a player in events before all is said and done.

Where they are headed... well, they were just trying to escape dying, so it's not so much where they are headed as where they end up (Icarias) and may yet end up in TCG that matters.

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What race or species are they?

per above, maybe just human, maybe mixed.

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The whole story seems unimportant but I'd like to think anything SE's adding into the series in the eve of the finale has some greater purpose than filling in half a book?

see above re Trust in SE...

Pure speculation on my part, by Kaylyth or possibly Gesler at one point tells the KC to 'worship self sacrifice and sacrifice for others' or something similar. I'm not precisely sure what words were used but i recall thinking it characterized the Snake kids. There would be a certain symmatry to the surviving Snake kids and the last surviving KC seeking to link themselves to humanity all ending up together.

But not shagging because honestly the line has to be drawn somewhere ffs.

- Abyss, draws the line at lizards... not that that stopped Rake... or Osserc... or every other pervert who got their freak on with a dragon....

[Abyss]

Gothos got the broad points but i'l throw in a bit more...

jaysen, on 19 May 2010 - 01:40 PM, said:

Who are these people?

Over in Kolanse the Forkrul Assail, possibly with friends, are killing off the human populations. For whatever reason, about 10k kids escaped, of whom about 6k survive all the way to Icarias iirc.

Pure speculation: the Forkrul that Badalle poetry slams are very different from the more 'alien' FA we've seen until then. The human population of Kolanse has been living with and breeding with FA for ages, leading to mixed blood kids who are mostly human but tougher, hence why the Snake makes it as far as it does.
Further speculation: HoC tells us that the FA and the Tiste Liosan once fought a war. The FA living in Kolanse are survivors of that war and liosan survivors lived there as well, also breeding with the humans (because in this world, people will shag ANYthing...).

Quote

I finished this book months ago and am rereading the series now and have no idea who they are or why they're even a part of the story.

Trust in SE. SE is good. SE is great.

Quote

Is the vital information in who is after them or where they are headed?

Speculation again but yes - we learn just how bad things were in Kolanse and that the FA are pretty much bugnuts. We also have Badalle, at the very least a Mokra High Mage, who might be a player in events before all is said and done.

Where they are headed... well, they were just trying to escape dying, so it's not so much where they are headed as where they end up (Icarias) and may yet end up in TCG that matters.

Quote

What race or species are they?

per above, maybe just human, maybe mixed.

Quote

The whole story seems unimportant but I'd like to think anything SE's adding into the series in the eve of the finale has some greater purpose than filling in half a book?

see above re Trust in SE...

Pure speculation on my part, by Kaylyth or possibly Gesler at one point tells the KC to 'worship self sacrifice and sacrifice for others' or something similar. I'm not precisely sure what words were used but i recall thinking it characterized the Snake kids. There would be a certain symmatry to the surviving Snake kids and the last surviving KC seeking to link themselves to humanity all ending up together.

But not shagging because honestly the line has to be drawn somewhere ffs.

- Abyss, draws the line at lizards... not that that stopped Rake... or Osserc... or every other pervert who got their freak on with a dragon....

[Sinisdar Toste]

well the meat of the subject has been thoroughly chewed, so i'll just say my bit about why the snake is in the book.

yes, introducing new characters at this point in a series - basically the "last" book - makes those characters hard to warm up to and can confuse and frustrate expectations. this, however, is SE's bread and butter. but really, it shouldn't be that confusing or frustrating.

since, i think, RG (maybe MT), we've been hearing about Kolanse, and in DoD we find out that the 'final showdown' is gonna be there with the heart of the CG, the supposed antagonist of this series. i don't think plopping everyone down in kolanse and saying, "ok! climax!" is gonna work out, story-wise.

so SE gives us the snake, a gold-mine of first-hand experience of the way that things in kolanse work, but they're all starving and dying and the nuggets of information are fed out through SE's usual method of introducing us to a stranger. cursory, fractured, biased, but real people, who aren't there for our benefit, interacting with others of the same. it may be boring or incomprehensible to some, but its incredibly important.

basically the snake are our introduction to kolansean (kolansii? kolansith? kolansese?) thinking and social/political organization, which will probably impact the story in tCG.

nevermind the sheer, blind courage and belief of the children and the patterns of leadership and communication in the snake that we have learned precede some sort of spike on the ascendancy chart, followed by an awesome display of power and the display of power itself. (MAGIC RAP BATTLE)

[foolio]

Abyss

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Further speculation: HoC tells us that the FA and the Tiste Liosan once fought a war

and just to add, In Reapers Gale, when Marines stop to rest on an island in a swamp beak says it is haunted by both FA and T Liosan spirits that died fighting each other on that same spot (coast of Lether) in the "Just" wars.

[Meese]

Yup, and it should be noted that The Watch slashed his way thro an fA in the Liosan warren. Surely the FA have taken over the Liosan warren and mashed or slaughtered all the TL - thats why we don't see too many of them around and they are now heading for dark, thro the light sea that TWilight and the Watch stood before in DOD. Lets hope a hust sword is good for FA.

Its the FA all the way from now on until the end

[worry]

You know, I'd never considered the idea that the TL have been secretly decimated by the FA. I guess I always assumed there's a healthy population and they simply preferred not to visit Wu or any other realm so much, and that the goofball TLs' special mission explains their travels well enough. But there hasn't been significant enough contact with them to say that for sure, so the notion that they're actually almost extinct, and those goofballs are making a kind of last ditch effort to find Father Light to stop the slaughter by FA is intriguing at least.

[D'rek]

The Road of Gallan isn't through the Liosan warren... clearly it borders on it but Yedan didn't go very far off the trail. It's possible the two FA encountered on the road were indeed causing mayhem among the Liosan, but if the Liosan civilization were destroyed and their numbers few, I doubt they would be sending scouting parties to investigate intruders on the Road so quickly, rather than focusing on their own survival.

[worry]

That makes sense. But what if the TL are in hiding and that's why they never seem to leave their warren, and they just disguise it in haughty arrogance. They may not be decimated, but they may have taken a bigger beating in the Just Wars than they'd like to admit. In other words, I wouldn't be surprised if they were seeking out FL out of panic rather than religious crisis. I guess I think they've been presented pretty one-dimensionally so far (on purpose) and there's something more to their story. And at this point, the FA are bound to push their buttons as much as the TA would. Basically, I think they're in panic mode, and I want to know why.

[Roldom]

in TtH wasnt it said that the Liosan warren sealed of by osseric, who then went of and killed all pretenders and invaders, divers and soletake are mentioned particularly, but im pretty sure he wouldnt of left an army of FA wandering around. most times Kurald Thyrllan is mentioned its said how all the gates are sealed, and that its a clossed warren. if all the gates are shut, it would explain why there annoyed that gesler and co just smashed there way through, and why they would send someone after them.

I think the just wars happened on Wu, not in Kurald Thyrllan and that the Liosan are proberly the healthyiest population wise of all the tiste peoples. especially as there the only Tiste that still lives in its birth realm

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Roldom, on 02 October 2010 - 03:52 PM, said:

in TtH wasnt it said that the Liosan warren sealed of by osseric, who then went of and killed all pretenders and invaders, divers and soletake are mentioned particularly, but im pretty sure he wouldnt of left an army of FA wandering around. most times Kurald Thyrllan is mentioned its said how all the gates are sealed, and that its a clossed warren. if all the gates are shut, it would explain why there annoyed that gesler and co just smashed there way through, and why they would send someone after them.

I think the just wars happened on Wu, not in Kurald Thyrllan and that the Liosan are proberly the healthyiest population wise of all the tiste peoples. especially as there the only Tiste that still lives in its birth realm

I think I remember that bit about Osserc sealing it off and killing all the soletaken that had gone inside, but you hafta remember that Osserc has been gone for a long time. I don't know how long the FA have been working on whatever it is they're working on, but they still could have found a way into the Liosan home realm. We've already seen Olar Ethil fly threw, as well as some T'lan Imass.

[MTS]

Kurald Thyrllan is by no means a completely sealed warren (and perhaps never really was - no fortress is impregnable). Silk is a practitioner of Kurald Thyrllan, so must be able to enter it, T'lan Imass broke in to kill L'oric's familiar, Olar Ethil, Gesler et al. have a cruise through it, the Shake opened the Road of Gallan which enters/borders it, and Skinner and Cowl had a brief encounter with a heretofore unknown entity in it (although to be fair they were on the border). Considering how much power the FA have been accruing of late, it is hardly inconceivable they could have forced their way into KT. For what purpose? Perhaps the control of a weakened warren, who knows.

Since hints of a connection between the TL and the FA became more overt, it has always confused me why, considering their hatred of outsiders, they would work with the FA. Unless they were being manipulated, there seems no motive for them to do so. I actually find the idea the FA are either at war with or compelling the TL in some way, shape or form to be more plausible than a co-operative relationship of mutual benefit.

[Hetan]

Isn't the statement "This land is consecrated for Adjudication" used by the FA whom Yedan Derryg (bad-ass extraordinaire) encounters in Dust? I don't think the FA need any further justification than that. And this doesn't sound like co-operation to me.

Also, there is a difference between being able to manipulate a warren and being able to enter a realm and I'm not sure that the two necessarily go hand in hand.

Regarding The Road - they started out on the Road of Galain but the two witches lost control of themselves when they took too much of Twilight's blood. Twilight lost consciousness and they ended up straying off the road onto the underside of Galain - basically the opposite side..and the opposite of Dark is light or as Yeddan Derryg says - "If not," he said, "the hold of the Liosan, then a neighbouring realm within their demesne."

[MTS]

Hetan, on 03 October 2010 - 12:47 PM, said:

Isn't the statement "This land is consecrated for Adjudication" used by the FA whom Yedan Derryg (bad-ass extraordinaire) encounters in Dust? I don't think the FA need any further justification than that. And this doesn't sound like co-operation to me.

Adjudication of what though? The Tiste Liosan? Seems unlikely. The Crippled God perhaps? The word 'consecrated' suggests that Kurald Thyrllan has been prepared for a certain purpose i.e. adjudication. Adjudication essentially means kill in the FA vernacular though, so why would they need an entire realm for it, unless they were dealing with some major juju. That raises the question of why Kurald Liosan in particular too - why not Akhrast Korvalain, Tellann or any other (presumably Elder) warren?

This post has been edited by MTS: 03 October 2010 - 02:00 PM

[Hetan]

Adjudication - pure and simple. Kill everything leaving the land empty. It's what they did in Kolanse so why is it unlikely?

Why Kurald Liosan? well we know that they have a hatred for each other - the Just Wars have already been quoted as an example above, so it's not that surprising.

Also - Akhrast Korvalain is their own warren

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Hetan, on 03 October 2010 - 02:10 PM, said:

Also - Akhrast Korvalain is their own warren

She's got you there MTS...

But on the other point, why do you think its difficult to believe that the FA are warring with the TL again? Even forgetting the Just Wars, they are two groups of fanatics, not really accepting of other ideologies at all, so if they bumped into each other again it's fairly logical that there would be some fighting. FA really like to fight. Or 'adjudicate' as they would say. I wouldn't be surprised to find out they were at war with any realm or group of people. For all they desire peace, war seems the inevitable result of their philosophy.

[MTS]

Hetan, on 03 October 2010 - 02:10 PM, said:

Adjudication - pure and simple. Kill everything leaving the land empty. It's what they did in Kolanse so why is it unlikely?

Why Kurald Liosan? well we know that they have a hatred for each other - the Just Wars have already been quoted as an example above, so it's not that surprising.

Also - Akhrast Korvalain is their own warren

I'm not disputing their penchant for annihilation, I think it's well established that that's pretty much what they do. What I'm skeptical of is that there are FA in Kurald Liosan simply because a FA's gotta adjudicate, yes he do. Kolanse was annihilated for a reason - namely, rivers of blood to power a gate. The FA didn't rock up one day and just decide to Judo-chop everybody because they 'brought discord'. It was calculated, had purpose. So in the same way it seems unlikely to me that considering all the stuff the FA are embroiled in at the moment there is no ulterior motive for the FA to be in KL specifically. I realise they have a mission to 'restore balance', and so is a probable explanation for one or two being there (even though it's probably quite hard to reach), but it seems Killy and Setch have them on a leash, and so I can't help but wonder what their particular interest in KL actually is. That the Liosan and FA share an abiding hatred a la Jaghut/Imass and that is the reason the FA are there seems too simplistic considering the complexity of the game being played.

[Hetan]

Their mission is not to restore balance but to eliminate those who cause imbalance. This spreads across any/every realm and that's it pure and simple.
They are also supremely arrogant and have hugely destructive powers - just one FA can eliminate thousands on their own, so I don't think it's too much of a reach to think there's enough of them in Kolanse to take care of that aspect of things, leaving others to carry on "adjudicating" in other realms.

[MTS]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 03 October 2010 - 03:46 PM, said:

Hetan, on 03 October 2010 - 02:10 PM, said:

Also - Akhrast Korvalain is their own warren

She's got you there MTS...

But on the other point, why do you think its difficult to believe that the FA are warring with the TL again? Even forgetting the Just Wars, they are two groups of fanatics, not really accepting of other ideologies at all, so if they bumped into each other again it's fairly logical that there would be some fighting. FA really like to fight. Or 'adjudicate' as they would say. I wouldn't be surprised to find out they were at war with any realm or group of people. For all they desire peace, war seems the inevitable result of their philosophy.

On the first I was more thinking the phrase 'this land has been consecrated for adjudication' had more ritualistic connotations than might be thought, which is why I threw out Akhrast Korvalain as a possibility if that reading is correct (I'm well aware it's their warren).

As for the second, I don't find the fact they could be warring with each other particularly unbelievable. I actually think it's more probable than them working together. However, I'm skeptical that it's purely this rehash of the Just Wars. Yes, ideological differences, clashing cultures, yadda yadda yadda, but the FA have a lot on their plate, what with eliminating Kolanse and siphoning the CG's power, and Killy and Setch are obsessed with keeping it all a secret, thus the pursuit of the Snake (by the way, the ones going after the Snake didn't look too crash-hot...). Now, I actually think they're taking advantage of Osserc's absence and the TL's isolation to commit a Kolanse 2.0 in order to gather more blood and power without any of the gods noticing. IIRC every FA we've seen other than Repose has been imprisoned for millenia, and considering they were such a nuisance that the Eleint needed to kill them and eventually carried out their genocide, I imagine there aren't that many left to go every which way adjudicating anymore, especially when they're tied up in Kolanse, don't seem to be as badass now as we've been led to believe, and KL is notoriously difficult to get into. So I guess I'm not arguing against the conflict, more the reason Repose is there.

By the way, is not eliminating imbalance the same as restoring balance?

This post has been edited by MTS: 04 October 2010 - 07:45 AM