[leebor]

I'm almost done MoI and am about to embark on HoC and i can't seem to remember anything from DG. I remember the basics of what happened but the part i am most fuzzy on is Icarium & Mappo's part. I don't recall why Mappo is with Icarium in the first place, what Icarium is doing, and what happened to them in the last few chapters of the book. any help would be much appreciated

This post has been edited by leebor: 15 May 2010 - 10:58 PM

[Aptorian]

Icarium is a Jhag Not-quite Ascendant, (Half Jaghut, half something else). A walking magical Weapon of Mass Destruction.

He has lived for at least 90,000 years and quite probably far longer than that.

Icarium is a damaged soul, he suffers from boughts of an insane destructive rage that can be triggered if there is even a slight hint of sufficient danger in his presence. Why and how is not quite certain, but when he starts acting weird and keening you better be running the other way. Icarium has in the past destroyed at least one City (civilization?) on 7C and there is probably many more dark events in his past like this one.

It is believed that his craziness (I believe we get this from DG not HOC, excuse me if I am wrong) comes from him suffering some kind of damage, possibly a chaotic taint, when he fool heartedly tried to rescue his father, Gothos, from an Azath on 7C. He either destroyed or gravely wounded the Azath, but in the process he himself got damaged.

He now wanders the world as an amnesiac, with no memory of his past atrocities, only a vague idea of his own horrible strength and some scattered memories of older days. Because he can be so destructive if triggered he now walks with a secret guardian masquerading as a friend. More on that in HOC and BH.

The events of DG saw Mappo and Iccy and the rest walking into the Tremolo Azath. Shadow sought to lure Icarium into the Azath where he might be bound and no longer pose a threat to the world. Mappo was conflicted because while he loves his friend, his task was also to protect the world from Icarium and this would be a final solution to the danger. Towards the end Icarium begins to freak out and go into "I WILL DESTROY YOU ALL" mode and Mappo whacks him with his magical mace which sends Icarium to La-la land. As the book ends, or maybe as HOC starts, we find Mappo and Icarium alone again, on 7C, heading to new adventures. Icarium remembers nothing of the last events and Mappo is happy with this.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 16 May 2010 - 07:33 AM

[hmqb]

Well put, Apt. Really a quite intresting desription i really liked the part about lala land

[Johnny Phoenix]

For the record Icarium is definitely older than 90,000 years. He has memories of Raraku as a sea which is pre-Imass I believe (or super old either way). I'm guessing his age is around 300,000.

[Aptorian]

During the First Empire, and probably much more recent than that, the continent was split up into islands by rivers and seas. There are several incidents where the characters come across old sea ports, I even think there's a big iron ship at one point. So he doesn't need to be older than the first Empire.

[Silk]

ah but he is older than 90000..... all is revealed later ;o)

[Tatterdemalion]

 Aptorian, on 15 May 2010 - 11:04 PM, said:

It is believed that his craziness (I believe we get this from DG not HOC, excuse me if I am wrong) comes from him suffering some kind of damage, possibly a chaotic taint, when he fool heartedly tried to rescue his father, Gothos, from an Azath on 7C. He either destroyed or gravely wounded the Azath, but in the process he himself got damaged.

Having just re-read it, I recall it saying that Icarium basically shattered a warren (Nasc?) trying to save Gothos. Someone says something about the effect of breaking a warren being harder on the breaker than on the warren. Maybe they meant the Azath warren, but it seemed in pretty good shape. So I'm not sure his damage was done directly to an Azath. If he'd done a ton of damage to an Azath, I find it hard to imagine Tremorlor (remember: Azath thrive off balancing power surplus) would NOT take Icarium ASAP - for its own protection if nothing else. Why did the Azath not take him? Them entering and using the warren to travel across the world didn't exactly STOP the assault on Tremorlor...

Also, can we assume he tried to rescue Gothos from the Malaz Deadhouse specifically as that was where Fid & crew found him?

[Shadow of Shadowthrone]

Ah, Icarium and Mappo. Two characters I've had a hard time getting into, understanding their motivations, background, reason to be in the story etc. Some of it was obviously solved in House of Chains, but I am still not sure if I "get them".
As an aside, instead of wasting a whole thread on something there probably are threads about somewhere,
can someone explain to me the exact nature of "the Azath" unless its RAFO (hey I've learned a new abbreviation)
(I'm on page 532-something in Midnight Tides)

[Aptorian]

 Tatterdemalion, on 20 June 2010 - 06:16 AM, said:

 Aptorian, on 15 May 2010 - 11:04 PM, said:

It is believed that his craziness (I believe we get this from DG not HOC, excuse me if I am wrong) comes from him suffering some kind of damage, possibly a chaotic taint, when he fool heartedly tried to rescue his father, Gothos, from an Azath on 7C. He either destroyed or gravely wounded the Azath, but in the process he himself got damaged.

Having just re-read it, I recall it saying that Icarium basically shattered a warren (Nasc?) trying to save Gothos. Someone says something about the effect of breaking a warren being harder on the breaker than on the warren. Maybe they meant the Azath warren, but it seemed in pretty good shape. So I'm not sure his damage was done directly to an Azath.

The warren that was shattered is theorised to be a small chunk left over from a bigger chunk of the shattered warren of shadow. The First Empire used shadow during the beast ritual and it went bad.

I can't quite recall the details any more but I seem to remember that there is something that suggests that Tremolor is not the same Azath that Icarium broke when he tried to free his father.

 Tatterdemalion, on 20 June 2010 - 06:16 AM, said:

If he'd done a ton of damage to an Azath, I find it hard to imagine Tremorlor (remember: Azath thrive off balancing power surplus) would NOT take Icarium ASAP - for its own protection if nothing else. Why did the Azath not take him? Them entering and using the warren to travel across the world didn't exactly STOP the assault on Tremorlor...

Tremelor was a bit preoccupied with hundreds or thousands of Soletaken and D'ivers zerg rushing it. I think that it made a concious choice, avoiding Icairum. Even at it's full strength, with no distractions, it would be dangerous and maybe impossible to detain Icarium.

 Tatterdemalion, on 20 June 2010 - 06:16 AM, said:

Also, can we assume he tried to rescue Gothos from the Malaz Deadhouse specifically as that was where Fid & crew found him?

All the Azaths are interconnected across a thousand worlds. Gothos can go any where he pleases, he is "a guest" it seems.

 Slynt in the Shadows, on 20 June 2010 - 06:30 AM, said:

Ah, Icarium and Mappo. Two characters I've had a hard time getting into, understanding their motivations, background, reason to be in the story etc. Some of it was obviously solved in House of Chains, but I am still not sure if I "get them".
As an aside, instead of wasting a whole thread on something there probably are threads about somewhere,
can someone explain to me the exact nature of "the Azath" unless its RAFO (hey I've learned a new abbreviation)
(I'm on page 532-something in Midnight Tides)

It is a RAFO kind of question. You learn some interesting stuff in TTH, but for the most part there's just not a lot of information on them.

They are sentient to an extent. They seem to be semi-organic. Magical. Connected with Warrens in a very direct way. Intergalactic/inter dimensional. They can age, be born or die. They arise where there is an imbalance or something dangerous needs taking down. There's a group called the Nameless Ones that seem to either serve them, worship or guide them. Somebody may be pulling the Azaths strings.

[Silencer]

 Tatterdemalion, on 20 June 2010 - 06:16 AM, said:

 Aptorian, on 15 May 2010 - 11:04 PM, said:

It is believed that his craziness (I believe we get this from DG not HOC, excuse me if I am wrong) comes from him suffering some kind of damage, possibly a chaotic taint, when he fool heartedly tried to rescue his father, Gothos, from an Azath on 7C. He either destroyed or gravely wounded the Azath, but in the process he himself got damaged.

Having just re-read it, I recall it saying that Icarium basically shattered a warren (Nasc?) trying to save Gothos. Someone says something about the effect of breaking a warren being harder on the breaker than on the warren. Maybe they meant the Azath warren, but it seemed in pretty good shape. So I'm not sure his damage was done directly to an Azath. If he'd done a ton of damage to an Azath, I find it hard to imagine Tremorlor (remember: Azath thrive off balancing power surplus) would NOT take Icarium ASAP - for its own protection if nothing else. Why did the Azath not take him? Them entering and using the warren to travel across the world didn't exactly STOP the assault on Tremorlor...

Also, can we assume he tried to rescue Gothos from the Malaz Deadhouse specifically as that was where Fid & crew found him?

There has been some indication that the warren Icarium was involved in shattering was Shadow, but that is for another forum, and is unlikely to be true (RAFO). The question is whether Temorlor could take Icarium while dealing with the Path of Hands influx at the same time. Plus, once he was unconscious, the Azath probably forgot about his presence.

 Slynt in the Shadows, on 20 June 2010 - 06:30 AM, said:

Ah, Icarium and Mappo. Two characters I've had a hard time getting into, understanding their motivations, background, reason to be in the story etc. Some of it was obviously solved in House of Chains, but I am still not sure if I "get them".
As an aside, instead of wasting a whole thread on something there probably are threads about somewhere,
can someone explain to me the exact nature of "the Azath" unless its RAFO (hey I've learned a new abbreviation)

The Mappo/Icarium story will evolve more as you read on.
The exact nature of the Azath? Oh gods...We don't really know, tbh. But there is a thread around here somewhere...I can't find the exact one which causes me much distress, but this one will sort of substitute: here. I'll keep looking for the other one, because it was a really great collaborative work.

[Weave]

An entirely different Question but of the same characters, so I thought I'd post it here rather than a new topic.

What's their physical appearance? Height specifically and skin colour.
I keep getting confused as to the larger of the 2, the text seems to flip between one being a giant, and the other being taller.
Or maybe my heads swirling. I'm confused either way. Can anyone sum it up for me/ Or maybe there's a really good fan-art somewhere?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Icarium is tall, skinny, grey-skinned and tusked.

Mappo is big (as in massive), broad shouldered, hairy/furry and seems to also have big teeth.

[ansible]

 Aptorian, on 20 June 2010 - 07:26 AM, said:

 Tatterdemalion, on 20 June 2010 - 06:16 AM, said:

 Aptorian, on 15 May 2010 - 11:04 PM, said:

It is believed that his craziness (I believe we get this from DG not HOC, excuse me if I am wrong) comes from him suffering some kind of damage, possibly a chaotic taint, when he fool heartedly tried to rescue his father, Gothos, from an Azath on 7C. He either destroyed or gravely wounded the Azath, but in the process he himself got damaged.

Having just re-read it, I recall it saying that Icarium basically shattered a warren (Nasc?) trying to save Gothos. Someone says something about the effect of breaking a warren being harder on the breaker than on the warren. Maybe they meant the Azath warren, but it seemed in pretty good shape. So I'm not sure his damage was done directly to an Azath.

The warren that was shattered is theorised to be a small chunk left over from a bigger chunk of the shattered warren of shadow. The First Empire used shadow during the beast ritual and it went bad.

I can't quite recall the details any more but I seem to remember that there is something that suggests that Tremolor is not the same Azath that Icarium broke when he tried to free his father.

HoC spoilers:

Spoiler

House of Chains, Tor MMPB, p. 699 said:

"Foolish, unmindful T'lan Imass, to drive a spear into the grounds of an Azath House."

"What did they know of houses, Cynnigig? Creatures of caves and hide tents. Besides, it was already dying and had been for years. Fatally wounded. Oh, Icarium was on his knees by the time he finally delivered the mortal blow, raving with madness. And had not his Toblakai companion taken that opportunity to strike him unconscious..."

"He would have freed his father." Cynnigig nodded around a mouthful of meat.

[...]

"[...] I do appreciate the irony, by the way - Icarium's father had no desire to be saved. And so the House died, weakening the fabric..."

"Sufficiently for the warren to be torn apart."

So the Azath Icarium assaulted and destroyed was in the Jhag Odhan, and merged with the Jaghut Phyrlis to become the guildindha tree that Icarium makes his time-measuring devices out of. Out of curiosity, do we know if Icarium started building clocks only after he lost his memory? The passage seems to suggest that (not quoted).

[Braden]

Erm…

Spoiler

I think Iccy might have built the time keeping before he started loosing his memory simply because the construction of such devices takes time and within his lost memory state he is obsessed with retracing his memories and travels to retrieve memories rather than staying in any one place long enough to build such devices. Added to this, at least one (perhaps two are mentioned) as being in the middle of cities. Iccy must have stayed, lived and worked in those places for years to do this…even if (as turns out at least once) he ends up destroying the city itself…this instance may well be the first time he “like totally lost his rag”, hence we have a destroyed city that is established as having been destroyed by him, but has one of his time keeping devices in side it that was erected whilst the city lived

…….all put in a “Spoiler” as I can’t remember where all these different pieces of the jigsaw come from bookwise. Still, trying to answer the question at the end of the spoiler above!

[playdoe]

Hey guys. I'm actually stuck on this part so decided to stop by and maybe comment. I was the poor soul who read Memoirs after Gardens and now picking up DG. Your explanation of Icarium has greatly helped. Now I can follow them without being oblivious half the time :-)

[SolidTG7]

Sorry for the necro but I've come back to the forums since I started rereading the series again.

Something I've been wondering as I am on my second read through is the exact nature of Icarium's power, is it warren based? How does he wreak destruction on such a large scale, I assume some kind of sorcery is involved since even though he is an exceedingly frightening swordsman I don't see him taking his blade to an entire civilization among the other tragedies he is suspected to have caused.

[worry]

It's sorcery based, but that's as much as you can say within the DG forum. Future books drop more hints about him, none of which would be appropriate here even under a Spoiler tag. Suffice to say you will learn what you want to know somewhere between here and the last page of TCG.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 15 December 2011 - 02:47 AM

[SolidTG7]

 worrywort, on 15 December 2011 - 02:46 AM, said:

It's sorcery based, but that's as much as you can say within the DG forum. Future books drop more hints about him, none of which would be appropriate here even under a Spoiler tag. Suffice to say you will learn what you want to know somewhere between here and the last page of TCG.

Thanks, its been a little while since I read all the books so its completely possible I already read about this in later installments and just simply forgot, or missed it, or misunderstood it since that is easy to do with these books. I'm noticing things on the second read through I completely missed the first time or didn't quite understand.