[Ruse]

Liosan, on 25 May 2010 - 01:47 AM, said:

I agree with Mockra about Barghast. Although, it seems strange that it's usage timed out just before Shadow got lynched.

@Kaschan, RE: Ruse. Well he did say:

Ruse, on 24 May 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

Non-contextual stuff....
....

Seriously, no deaths again? I feel like this is the calm before the storm... though at least there was what appears to be an attempted kill.

So, I suppose that could be a reason you are thinking that. "Though at leat there was... an attempted kill." Is bizarre language usage.

I'm operating under the assumption that the game is balanced and that there are people with kill abilities so that the game doesn't end up taking a month to finish. To that effect, it is my opinion that less deaths now mean more deaths later, when they may hit harder because there are fewer of us. I believe I've already stated versions of this assumption earlier, so I thought you guys would be able to follow what I was saying.

It doesn't mean I want everyone dead, it just means I'm concerned. It's like, in the first half of Alien 3 where hardly anybody dies, and you're like, "When is this thing gonna jump out and kill everybody?" And then it does, and it's not a pretty sight. Both in the sense that a whole lot of people die and in the sense that it's a God-awful movie.

But, anyway, I could be wrong, I suppose. Maybe the syndicate has heavy recruiting powers this time around and is acting like more of a cult.

Also, I guess Barghast could have been the target of a day kill, but it seems unlikely. I'm leaning more toward Mockra's theory that dude had an expiration date. I mean, he couldn't talk or even vote, so why bother taking him out? I suppose it could have been a BP for someone else, but when you think about the fact that Mockra was going to be silenced until Barg died, if Barg was a BP, then it could have been many, many days before he was used up, and I highly doubt there's a mechanic that would silence a player for that long.

[Liosan]

I caught the drift of what you were saying, Ruse. My point was that the wording around it is weird, "At least." I too am expecting things to pick up, but that doesn't mean I decry their absence at this point in time. I wouldn't be relieved by three attempted kills tomorrow night because I knew "the storm" had started.

[Ruse]

Liosan, on 25 May 2010 - 04:16 AM, said:

I caught the drift of what you were saying, Ruse. My point was that the wording around it is weird, "At least." I too am expecting things to pick up, but that doesn't mean I decry their absence at this point in time. I wouldn't be relieved by three attempted kills tomorrow night because I knew "the storm" had started.

Eh, I still don't feel like you understand what I'm saying. You do realize that a failed kill is a good thing, right?

Maybe if I said it like this: "I believe that the killers have X number of kills (this number is most likely variable depending on the number of days in the game, but bear with me). It's kind of strange that we haven't seen that many of them, but at least we got through one of those X last night without anyone dying."

[Liosan]

Why do you think Syndicate has "x" numbers of kills? Granted, Town factions probably DO have some number of Vigs, as evidenced by a Japanese Point Requirement (killing the most out of the factions), but that doesn't mean Syndicate is limited in any other way than time and level.

As for your statement, this is how it breaks down to me:

"Seriously, no deaths again?" Really, nobody got killed, again? Does this statement sound like it is HAPPY that nobody got killed?

"I feel like this is the calm before the storm." Fair enough, we agree that odds are kill attempts will likely increase at some point. All the stranger the first part of the quote.

"Though at least there... was an attempted kill." Which makes more sense in the context you are claiming of calm before the storm. That is a relieved sort of statement.

But if you tie it all together, it sounds shady. Sorry, but it does. "Seriously," and "at least". One would think that an Inno would naturally invert your statements to say: "Seriously: 'a kill;' 'two kills'; 'three kills'?" "At least: 'no kills.'"

If we are talking at cross-points, then so be it. I want to explore the statement.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Ok, here is my amazing case.

Hood's Path is in the middle of the pack and fits the "cruising scum" profile. Limited content to his posts and hasn't contributed a thing - although he has enough posts to find himself in the middle of the pack. This snarky comment he makes early on could well apply to him for the whole game:

Hood, on 19 May 2010 - 11:10 PM, said:

So you've read through the thread yet not seen anything suspicious? How did you manage that?

Nothing scummy jumps out in his posts specifically, but that's not unusual (when was the last time we caught someone doing something scummy who was actually scum)? A lot of one line posts as well.

OK HP, what's up?

[Liosan]

@Ruse:

Hold on. I might be coming around to your logic, despite my disagreement.

You are stating that it is a bad thing that only a couple of attempts have been made/failed, and thus certain numbers of attempts remain. Thus, you'd rather those had been used and stopped somehow by now, and are awaiting the inevitable enfilade of, I can only assume, town faction kills.

In that sense, I could see how only one attempted kill would strike you as bad.

But, it doesn't take away from the "Seriously, no deaths again,?" statement to me. There's a difference between failed kills and successful kills. You seem to be waiting for the hammer to drop, but that statement seems more eager than I would say it.

Edit: x-post.

This post has been edited by Liosan: 25 May 2010 - 04:59 AM

[Ruse]

Surprise is the emotion I was feeling when I wrote that. You are entitled to interpret it how you wish, but that is what I was expressing with the word "seriously."

[Liosan]

Ruse, on 25 May 2010 - 05:09 AM, said:

Surprise is the emotion I was feeling when I wrote that. You are entitled to interpret it how you wish, but that is what I was expressing with the word "seriously."

And that "emotion" is a rather neutral one, don't you think? You can be either happily or unfortunately surprised.

[Silanah]

Ruse, on 19 May 2010 - 11:24 PM, said:

Yeah, I don't know what to make of the lack of even attempted kills. I mean, if the syndicate had kills available, they would use them, right? It makes me think that if maybe the syndicate can't kill until they level up some more, the kills they get might be freaky-powerful. Like, "kill 5 people at once" or something.

Speculation aside, though, I guess we can be grateful that it's day 2 and we're all still alive. Group hug!

Ruse, on 24 May 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

Spite, on 24 May 2010 - 09:26 PM, said:

It would appear that the person on the car was not mockra seeing as he could post before she was freed from the ropes, so i would guess it was actually Kaschan, unless there was another person who couldn't post maybe a low poster, but i guess we will have to wait and see if he can post.

It was most likely Mockra, though he's not allowed to confirm that explicitly himself, of course. He was probably told he could post again once it became night, and P-S just took some amount of time to actually post the night scenes.

Seriously, no deaths again? I feel like this is the calm before the storm... though at least there was what appears to be an attempted kill.

I can see where Liosan is coming from, Ruse. You do make the statement that it's pretty awesome that we're still alive, but then it becomes a bad thing. It is true that there were no attempted kills for (a couple?) of nights, and an failed kill is better than it an a successful kill (yet it's also true we're losing BPs as well [that's if I've read the scenes correctly]). The 'seriously' almost makes it like you're frustrated, which I can't really fathom. I suppose it could be surprise, but the bolded posts almost feel like scare-mongering as well, but if you were scum, that wouldn't serve much purpose.

So really, I'm not sure about you.

[Liosan]

Silanah: Do you still think Barghast was the subject of an action?

[Silanah]

Liosan, on 25 May 2010 - 05:25 AM, said:

Silanah: Do you still think Barghast was the subject of an action?

Quote

The last of the henchmen crumbled into a heap, taken from behind, knifed and silenced. She had had to employ her full arsenal of tricks, but now, she had evaded the clutches of the triade footmen. Time to go for their boss.

Barghast is dead. He was Triade Hired Hand, Chinese Syndicate.

I do. We've seen a woman with a blade before, and Barghast was knifed. Could be Barghast (or whoever was controlling him?) targeted that woman, and so that's what 'evading' signifies, but nevertheless.


EDIT - fixed boldness

This post has been edited by Silanah: 25 May 2010 - 05:31 AM

[Mockra]

Silanah, on 25 May 2010 - 05:17 AM, said:

Ruse, on 19 May 2010 - 11:24 PM, said:

Yeah, I don't know what to make of the lack of even attempted kills. I mean, if the syndicate had kills available, they would use them, right? It makes me think that if maybe the syndicate can't kill until they level up some more, the kills they get might be freaky-powerful. Like, "kill 5 people at once" or something.

Speculation aside, though, I guess we can be grateful that it's day 2 and we're all still alive. Group hug!

Ruse, on 24 May 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

Spite, on 24 May 2010 - 09:26 PM, said:

It would appear that the person on the car was not mockra seeing as he could post before she was freed from the ropes, so i would guess it was actually Kaschan, unless there was another person who couldn't post maybe a low poster, but i guess we will have to wait and see if he can post.

It was most likely Mockra, though he's not allowed to confirm that explicitly himself, of course. He was probably told he could post again once it became night, and P-S just took some amount of time to actually post the night scenes.

Seriously, no deaths again? I feel like this is the calm before the storm... though at least there was what appears to be an attempted kill.

I can see where Liosan is coming from, Ruse. You do make the statement that it's pretty awesome that we're still alive, but then it becomes a bad thing. It is true that there were no attempted kills for (a couple?) of nights, and an failed kill is better than it an a successful kill (yet it's also true we're losing BPs as well [that's if I've read the scenes correctly]). The 'seriously' almost makes it like you're frustrated, which I can't really fathom. I suppose it could be surprise, but the bolded posts almost feel like scare-mongering as well, but if you were scum, that wouldn't serve much purpose.

So really, I'm not sure about you.

I can see where Lio is coming from, but I think we should be careful of automatically knocking someone around over being jubilant over life.

I would say that if someone really did kill Barghast, first, you have my thanks. And second, it seems unlikely to have been a scum kill because the alt was scum.

[Liosan]

Being over jubilant of life is the opposite of what I've been saying though, Mockra. The additional quote puts Ruse's statement into a more understandable context for me, though. If he honestly (I don't see why, as it would be fairly ridiculous action only a few days in) thinks that Syndicate are powering up for more than 2 kills then it makes a sort of sense for him to be dreading it.

[Silanah]

Mockra, on 25 May 2010 - 05:40 AM, said:

Silanah, on 25 May 2010 - 05:17 AM, said:

Ruse, on 19 May 2010 - 11:24 PM, said:

Yeah, I don't know what to make of the lack of even attempted kills. I mean, if the syndicate had kills available, they would use them, right? It makes me think that if maybe the syndicate can't kill until they level up some more, the kills they get might be freaky-powerful. Like, "kill 5 people at once" or something.

Speculation aside, though, I guess we can be grateful that it's day 2 and we're all still alive. Group hug!

Ruse, on 24 May 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

Spite, on 24 May 2010 - 09:26 PM, said:

It would appear that the person on the car was not mockra seeing as he could post before she was freed from the ropes, so i would guess it was actually Kaschan, unless there was another person who couldn't post maybe a low poster, but i guess we will have to wait and see if he can post.

It was most likely Mockra, though he's not allowed to confirm that explicitly himself, of course. He was probably told he could post again once it became night, and P-S just took some amount of time to actually post the night scenes.

Seriously, no deaths again? I feel like this is the calm before the storm... though at least there was what appears to be an attempted kill.

I can see where Liosan is coming from, Ruse. You do make the statement that it's pretty awesome that we're still alive, but then it becomes a bad thing. It is true that there were no attempted kills for (a couple?) of nights, and an failed kill is better than it an a successful kill (yet it's also true we're losing BPs as well [that's if I've read the scenes correctly]). The 'seriously' almost makes it like you're frustrated, which I can't really fathom. I suppose it could be surprise, but the bolded posts almost feel like scare-mongering as well, but if you were scum, that wouldn't serve much purpose.

So really, I'm not sure about you.

I can see where Lio is coming from, but I think we should be careful of automatically knocking someone around over being jubilant over life.

I would say that if someone really did kill Barghast, first, you have my thanks. And second, it seems unlikely to have been a scum kill because the alt was scum.

I'm not knocking him, just saying I can see Liosan's logic, and the phrasing was strange, but like I noted, it's not consistent with logical scum play in my mind.

That said, I agree that's it's likely to be a non-scum kill. Which probably means a vig was used.

[Mockra]

OK, i see what you're referring to. He should be more excited than he is. I misread it earlier. I'd agree with that statement.

[Mockra]

That's all for me tonight, I believe. Considering where to vote but evenings aren't a good time for me to review everything so I'll be at it in the morning.

Congrats to whoever hits 1500 in a few posts.

[Ruse]

Liosan, on 25 May 2010 - 05:15 AM, said:

Ruse, on 25 May 2010 - 05:09 AM, said:

Surprise is the emotion I was feeling when I wrote that. You are entitled to interpret it how you wish, but that is what I was expressing with the word "seriously."

And that "emotion" is a rather neutral one, don't you think? You can be either happily or unfortunately surprised.

Or I can be neutrally surprised, given my opinions on how less kills now could equal more kills later.

So, anyway, moving away from the "Ruse is a snarky misanthrope" line of questioning, here is a full explanation of my thoughts on how kills may be quantified in this game, based on the last Spycraft game and some thinking fueled by a distinct lack of killing thus far.

So, here are the syndicate roles from last game:

Path-Shaper, on 21 September 2009 - 01:28 PM, said:

--Syndicate--

Quote

Grischa Timkov – Assassin (Russian) -- Syndicate
Level 0:
Assassinate: night only. kill a target player.
Level 1:
Hard to kill: passive. 1 BP
Level 2:
Consummate Liar: passive. You come up as a spy on finds/CF instead of Syndicate.
Level 3:
Drive by shooting: day only. Limited number of uses (1). Kill a target player.
Level 4:
Harder to kill: passive. 1 extra BP.
Level 5:
Do Not Cross Me: passive. if you submit a kill action and it is cancelled by intervention of a healer or guard, the healer or guard becomes the target of your kill, instead. If you target a guard, you are not considered to be guarded.

Quote

Stephen Churchill – Gadgeteer (British) -- Syndicate
Level 0:
Sabotage Communications: night only. Limited number of uses (3). Guard a player for this phase. This guard also blocks lover communications. The target will be informed he is guarded.
Level 1:
I Know All Your Tricks: passive. you are immune to guard attempts by others.
Level 2:
It’s Sabotage!: passive. Upgrade of Sabotage Communications (4). 4 extra guard attempts, which now may be used on night and day.
Level 3:
Booby Trap: day only. Limited uses (1). Target a player by sending his name to the mods. After the third time the player posts, he’s blown up, taking the person who posted immediately before him, with him into a fiery death. Bulletproofs do not help against this action, only Lynch Proofs. The day is immediately ended.
Level 4:
Tracking Device: day only. target a player. All his PMs to the mods and all his actions are sent to you for the duration of this phase. You may sent a different name to the mods each day, but you can only track a single player per day.
Level 5:
Set Up: night only. Limited number of uses (1). Target a player. If the player ever votes for you, today or in the future, he is blown up during the next vote count. His vote is, of course, removed, unless he was the hammer in a lynch on you, in which case you both die in a fiery conflagration.

Quote

Isabelle Paix – Infiltrator (French) -- Syndicate
Level 0:
Spy in the Web: passive. knows the identity of all syndicate players, and their code-names.
Infiltrated: passive. comes up as a spy on finds
Level 1:
Seductress: night only . Limited number of uses (1). Establish a lover link with a player of your choice (this may be another syndicate player or a spy). You do this by sending a PM containing the players name to the mods, they will inform your target and then get back to you. From there on, you can send each other messages directly, CCing H&M.
Level 2:
Inside Information: day only: send a PM from a lover you have to the Mastermind. Useable any number of times per day, but precludes using other day abilities.
Level 3:
Menage-a-trois: night only. Limited number of uses (1). establish a lover link with a second player of your choice.
Level 4:
Secrets betrayed: Limited number of uses (1). When you receive this ability, send the name of a single player you have a lover relationship with to the mods. You learn all of his abilities and may broadcast them to another player of your choice (does not have to be a lover or syndicate player) upon receiving this ability. This counts as your night/ day action for this phase.
Level 5:
Wine in front of me: Day only: kill one of your lovers.

Quote

Ernest Scofield – Mastermind (American) -- Syndicate
Level 0:
Escape Hatch: passive. 1 lynch proof, 1 bullet proofs.
Mastermind: passive. you know the identity of all your evil underlings.
Radio Contact: passive. For as long as the Comm Man lives, all American players can communicate with one another through Hugin & Mugin. No player may tell any other what their game or forum alt is, what their abilities are, or set up clever tricks to do either, on pain of a modkill of the communications guy. That’s not you, for your information. The Mastermind is strictly forbidden on pain of a modkill of himself to get the comm. guy modkilled by violating this rule.
Level 1:
Double Agent: night only. Limited number of uses (1). Recruit one other player to your cause. If the player is immune to recruitment, you lose this ability.
Level 2:
Well Protected: passive. 1 extra BP
Level 3:
In Control: passive. Limited number of uses (1). Upon receiving this ability, send the alts of two other syndicate players to the mods. You instantly become a lover with them.
Level 4:
Plan & Coordinate: passive. Limited number of uses (1). Upon achieving this rank, the mods will PM you the role PMs of your evil minions (including their level 5, including dead ones).
Level 5:
I’ll Do It Myself: passive. Limited number of uses (1). You learn one level 0 to 4 ability of one of your evil underlings, or you may learn one of your own level 0 to 4 abilities again. The minion you learn it from does not have to be alive.

So, I've italicized the direct killing abilities. The mastermind's last one isn't necessarily a killing ability, but I think it was used as such. So there is 1 "kill every night" ability, plus 5 more potential deaths from syndicate abilities, plus the Mastermind's ability which could potentially be another "kill every night" ability.

And this is all for 17 players. With 22, I would assume maybe 2 more free-standing syndicate kills.

Plus the fact that there wasn't even an attempted kill night 1 suggests the guy with a "kill every night" ability, if there is one, doesn't get that ability until maybe level 2 or 3. To compensate for that, I would assume 1 or 2 more free-standing syndicate kills.

Plus the Japanese have all these killing objectives, so one would assume they have a lot of vig kills. Plus, the way the objective is worded, it implies the other factions have, to a lesser extent, killing powers, as well.

To me, all of this adds up to a lot of free-standing killing abilities for both the syndicate and the spies, and we haven't seen hardly any of it. This concerns me.


Ugh, this happens to me way too often where I think about the mechanics of a game too much and I assume everyone has made the same logical leaps I have. Then I make statements from a perspective that I think everyone is at and they get all misunderstood. Quite frustrating, but I suppose it is my own fault.

I'm going to sleep now.

[Liosan]

Do you think other people haven't thought about mechanics, and you are the sole genius waiting for people to catch-up about how god awful the slaughter is to be in later days? Or, is it possible you are blowing it completely out of proportion?

Quote

Yeah, I don't know what to make of the lack of even attempted kills. I mean, if the syndicate had kills available, they would use them, right? It makes me think that if maybe the syndicate can't kill until they level up some more, the kills they get might be freaky-powerful. Like, "kill 5 people at once" or something.

Speculation aside, though, I guess we can be grateful that it's day 2 and we're all still alive. Group hug!

Oh. Never mind, you COULD be blowing it completely out of the water. You seem mightily focused on NK's you know.

So, you are concerned with kills that haven't taken place yet. How in the fuck does that help Town?

You are like the guy with the sign on the street saying "The World Is Going To End". No shit sherlock. What the fuck do you plan on doing about it, other than bemoaning it's eventual obliteration?

[Silanah]

Liosan, on 25 May 2010 - 06:22 AM, said:

<br />Do you think other people haven't thought about mechanics, and you are the sole genius waiting for people to catch-up about how god awful the slaughter is to be in later days? Or, is it possible you are blowing it completely out of proportion?<br /><br />

Quote

<br />Yeah, I don't know what to make of the lack of even attempted kills. I mean, if the syndicate had kills available, they would use them, right? It makes me think that if maybe the syndicate can't kill until they level up some more,<b> </b>the kills they get might be freaky-powerful. Like, &quot;kill 5 people at once&quot; or something.<br /><br />Speculation aside, though, I guess we can be grateful that it's day 2 and we're all still alive. Group hug!<br />

<br /><br />Oh. Never mind, you COULD be blowing it completely out of the water. You seem mightily focused on NK's you know.<br /><br />So, you are concerned with kills that haven't taken place yet. How in the fuck does that help Town?<br /><br />You are like the guy with the sign on the street saying &quot;The World Is Going To End&quot;. No shit sherlock. What the fuck do you plan on doing about it, other than bemoaning it's eventual obliteration?<br />

<br /><br /><br />
Laying it on a bit thick there Liosan. I don't think his response warrants that much vitriol..

Although I do agree that too many people are just complaining about how little there is and not bothering to look for anything.

[Liosan]

That might be a bit more antagonistic than it should be, sorry. But, seriously, you do seem extremely focused on the killing mechanics Ruse.

Edit: x-post with confirmation of antagonism.

This post has been edited by Liosan: 25 May 2010 - 06:33 AM