[Spiridon_Deannis]

I can´t warm to this. OK, they built this thing together, share the world, ladaladalada...but (putting it in cinematic terms) where SE is like Quentin Tarantino channelling Scorsese and 70´s Coppola, ICE simply is like a ...McG, doing a 90-minute resumed contract job on the ouevre of QT, MS and FFC together...

ROTCG is a single tome with a potential tetralogy hidden in it.

Sorry, fanboys, just my 2 cents on the matter...

[Illuyankas]

No need to apologise, unlike some other fansites we allow opinions that aren't 'HURF DURF [insert author here] IS THE BESTEST'. Plus you'll find a number of forum members who agree with you, if you check this thread.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 08 May 2010 - 12:47 AM

[zenMichael]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 08 May 2010 - 12:26 AM, said:

ROTCG is a single tome with a potential tetralogy hidden in it.

You know, that was honestly my biggest problem w/ROTCG. it really felt to me like the Kyle/Guard stuff was one storyline whilst everything else (esp. the ... big dog ... loose ... in the place--can you tell it didn't stick w/me much?) was a different one. I also now can't even remember if they converged at the end. But it really seems like there should've been a better way to organize it. I'm fine w/ICE's writing but I just think his, I dunno, juggling acts need some work. I think GotM suffers from this somewhat, but definitely coheses by the end. Maybe RotCG will read better a second time through, as GotM did for me, but that's a big "maybe."

[D'rek]

zenMichael, on 08 May 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

Spiridon_Deannis, on 08 May 2010 - 12:26 AM, said:

ROTCG is a single tome with a potential tetralogy hidden in it.

You know, that was honestly my biggest problem w/ROTCG. it really felt to me like the Kyle/Guard stuff was one storyline whilst everything else (esp. the ... big dog ... loose ... in the place--can you tell it didn't stick w/me much?) was a different one. I also now can't even remember if they converged at the end. But it really seems like there should've been a better way to organize it. I'm fine w/ICE's writing but I just think his, I dunno, juggling acts need some work. I think GotM suffers from this somewhat, but definitely coheses by the end. Maybe RotCG will read better a second time through, as GotM did for me, but that's a big "maybe."

I'll agree that the CrimGr storyline seems radically seperate from the Talian storylines for most of the book, but if you can't remember if they converged at the end... well, shame on you because the 300-page-long fight scene with the Talian league, Empire, Crimson Guard was definitely where I think ICE shines the most in bringing it all together into a giant convergence. Is it really that different, though, from MoI and its two completely unrelated forces (the Dujek-Brood Alliance being one, Envy and her group the other) converging on Coral in the end? It's just all armies this time.

There are definitely some wobbly bits, but what always comes to mind for me is what ICE said in an interview - that he'd written RotCG to be a lot longer and had to edit out some big chunks of it to get it down to novel size. As you said - the potential of a tetralogy - and I'm sure it could have been, and would've flowed better with all those bits still in, though I'm not sure it would have been as fast-paced.

[zenMichael]

D, on 08 May 2010 - 04:24 AM, said:

zenMichael, on 08 May 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

You know, that was honestly my biggest problem w/ROTCG. it really felt to me like the Kyle/Guard stuff was one storyline whilst everything else (esp. the ... big dog ... loose ... in the place--can you tell it didn't stick w/me much?) was a different one. I also now can't even remember if they converged at the end. But it really seems like there should've been a better way to organize it. I'm fine w/ICE's writing but I just think his, I dunno, juggling acts need some work. I think GotM suffers from this somewhat, but definitely coheses by the end. Maybe RotCG will read better a second time through, as GotM did for me, but that's a big "maybe."

I'll agree that the CrimGr storyline seems radically seperate from the Talian storylines for most of the book, but if you can't remember if they converged at the end... well, shame on you because the 300-page-long fight scene with the Talian league, Empire, Crimson Guard was definitely where I think ICE shines the most in bringing it all together into a giant convergence. Is it really that different, though, from MoI and its two completely unrelated forces (the Dujek-Brood Alliance being one, Envy and her group the other) converging on Coral in the end? It's just all armies this time.

it's seriously been a long while since i read it, and i didn't get into it that much and blahblahblah, hence why i don't recall. i am looking forward to a re-read, tho. hopefully it'll be smoother that time around. and what's weird is i can't say, well, he shouldn't have edited it down & just let it be 2 books, because you're still going to have all the same problems (probably magnified). and with MoI, i feel there was much more a focus on the Dujek/Brood storyline, that the Toc & Friends storyline was far more of a subplot that converged at the end. honestly i think i would've been happier with the CG being a subplot in RotCG, making kyle a like 3-scene character (i'm sure ICE has plans for him, but making him smaller in RotCG wouldn't ruin that). might've necessitated a name change, but again. i'm ok w/that.

[worry]

Dissed and dismissed, fanboys! You just got served.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I agree. I'm not someone who puts a book down halfway through normally, but on this occassion I didnt even make it halfway. My brother had already read it and I got all the important info off him and threw it back on the shelf.

Toi put it pugulistic terms.

SE = Mike Tyson

ICE = Audly Harrison

[M'ichael]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 08 May 2010 - 12:26 AM, said:

I can´t warm to this. OK, they built this thing together, share the world, ladaladalada...but (putting it in cinematic terms) where SE is like Quentin Tarantino channelling Scorsese and 70´s Coppola, ICE simply is like a ...McG, doing a 90-minute resumed contract job on the ouevre of QT, MS and FFC together...

ROTCG is a single tome with a potential tetralogy hidden in it.

Sorry, fanboys, just my 2 cents on the matter...

A tetralogy with 80% boring setup and filler.

[Ulrik]

Try Eragon...magic swords, dragons, knights, less pages, less complexicity... (yep, this is joke...maybe not good, maybe little stingy, but still joke and it prevents his poster from torture, execution or flame...especially board flame)

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Illuyankas, on 08 May 2010 - 12:46 AM, said:

No need to apologise, unlike some other fansites we allow opinions that aren't 'HURF DURF [insert author here] IS THE BESTEST'. Plus you'll find a number of forum members who agree with you, if you check this thread.

Oh, my ever annoying lazyness to check for already existing threads...thx in any case & and ashes on my head...

M, on 08 May 2010 - 02:58 PM, said:

Spiridon_Deannis, on 08 May 2010 - 12:26 AM, said:

I can´t warm to this. OK, they built this thing together, share the world, ladaladalada...but (putting it in cinematic terms) where SE is like Quentin Tarantino channelling Scorsese and 70´s Coppola, ICE simply is like a ...McG, doing a 90-minute resumed contract job on the ouevre of QT, MS and FFC together...

ROTCG is a single tome with a potential tetralogy hidden in it.

Sorry, fanboys, just my 2 cents on the matter...

A tetralogy with 80% boring setup and filler.

OK, acknowledged...- but, curious - what holds you to the cycle, if THAT is your gripe ?

D, on 08 May 2010 - 04:24 AM, said:

zenMichael, on 08 May 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

Spiridon_Deannis, on 08 May 2010 - 12:26 AM, said:

ROTCG is a single tome with a potential tetralogy hidden in it.

You know, that was honestly my biggest problem w/ROTCG. it really felt to me like the Kyle/Guard stuff was one storyline whilst everything else (esp. the ... big dog ... loose ... in the place--can you tell it didn't stick w/me much?) was a different one. I also now can't even remember if they converged at the end. But it really seems like there should've been a better way to organize it. I'm fine w/ICE's writing but I just think his, I dunno, juggling acts need some work. I think GotM suffers from this somewhat, but definitely coheses by the end. Maybe RotCG will read better a second time through, as GotM did for me, but that's a big "maybe."

I'll agree that the CrimGr storyline seems radically seperate from the Talian storylines for most of the book, but if you can't remember if they converged at the end... well, shame on you because the 300-page-long fight scene with the Talian league, Empire, Crimson Guard was definitely where I think ICE shines the most in bringing it all together into a giant convergence. Is it really that different, though, from MoI and its two completely unrelated forces (the Dujek-Brood Alliance being one, Envy and her group the other) converging on Coral in the end? It's just all armies this time.

There are definitely some wobbly bits, but what always comes to mind for me is what ICE said in an interview - that he'd written RotCG to be a lot longer and had to edit out some big chunks of it to get it down to novel size. As you said - the potential of a tetralogy - and I'm sure it could have been, and would've flowed better with all those bits still in, though I'm not sure it would have been as fast-paced.

D´rek, my man, I will not dispute you on these points. ICE definitely DOES follow the SE *holy script* on convergences...but...but...it is...how shall I say...?...a Reader´s Digest version of *War and Peace*...it is serviceable (what a nasty word), but nothing beyond that. How shall I put it ? I do reread SE´s oeuvre & everytime I discover something new. I do not reread ICE´s oeuvre, because upon first reading, I am spoonfed in a most linear fashion all I need to know. Nothing incremental there. Nothing necessarily bad either. Just nothing that thrills me, particularly, considering the fantasy papp being published out there nowadays...

Mod Edit: Triple post merged to one.

[D'rek]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 09 May 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

D, on 08 May 2010 - 04:24 AM, said:

zenMichael, on 08 May 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

Spiridon_Deannis, on 08 May 2010 - 12:26 AM, said:

ROTCG is a single tome with a potential tetralogy hidden in it.

You know, that was honestly my biggest problem w/ROTCG. it really felt to me like the Kyle/Guard stuff was one storyline whilst everything else (esp. the ... big dog ... loose ... in the place--can you tell it didn't stick w/me much?) was a different one. I also now can't even remember if they converged at the end. But it really seems like there should've been a better way to organize it. I'm fine w/ICE's writing but I just think his, I dunno, juggling acts need some work. I think GotM suffers from this somewhat, but definitely coheses by the end. Maybe RotCG will read better a second time through, as GotM did for me, but that's a big "maybe."

I'll agree that the CrimGr storyline seems radically seperate from the Talian storylines for most of the book, but if you can't remember if they converged at the end... well, shame on you because the 300-page-long fight scene with the Talian league, Empire, Crimson Guard was definitely where I think ICE shines the most in bringing it all together into a giant convergence. Is it really that different, though, from MoI and its two completely unrelated forces (the Dujek-Brood Alliance being one, Envy and her group the other) converging on Coral in the end? It's just all armies this time.

There are definitely some wobbly bits, but what always comes to mind for me is what ICE said in an interview - that he'd written RotCG to be a lot longer and had to edit out some big chunks of it to get it down to novel size. As you said - the potential of a tetralogy - and I'm sure it could have been, and would've flowed better with all those bits still in, though I'm not sure it would have been as fast-paced.

D´rek, my man, I will not dispute you on these points. ICE definitely DOES follow the SE *holy script* on convergences...but...but...it is...how shall I say...?...a Reader´s Digest version of *War and Peace*...it is serviceable (what a nasty word), but nothing beyond that. How shall I put it ? I do reread SE´s oeuvre & everytime I discover something new. I do not reread ICE´s oeuvre, because upon first reading, I am spoonfed in a most linear fashion all I need to know. Nothing incremental there. Nothing necessarily bad either. Just nothing that thrills me, particularly, considering the fantasy papp being published out there nowadays...

I won't refute that, but the payoff at the end was well worth it to me and I hold out hope that he'll improve as he goes, as most writers do. It's hard to judge by publishing times because who knows when things were actually written, but SE had published 3 novellas and a novel before he published GotM, and that had been rewritten many a-time in the long battle to get it published. ICE made his debut with NoK and I'm sure he didn't have to spend years rewriting RotCG better and better to eventually get it published because SE already broke the malazan ground. So if he can deliver in his first novel what we got in RotCG, which despite its faults I still liked and enjoyed, then I'm very hopeful for the continuation of his arcs of the story.


Oh, and to the suggestion above of having not included the CrimGr part of the story - that would make it far worse: a climactic end battle against an entire army that's never expounded upon prior to the battle and appears out of nowhere on Quon Tali so conveniently close to where the other two forces were fighting? We'd be denouncing it for enormous shoe-horning and deus-ex-machina in instants.

[M'ichael]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 09 May 2010 - 06:22 AM, said:

M, on 08 May 2010 - 02:58 PM, said:

Spiridon_Deannis, on 08 May 2010 - 12:26 AM, said:

I can´t warm to this. OK, they built this thing together, share the world, ladaladalada...but (putting it in cinematic terms) where SE is like Quentin Tarantino channelling Scorsese and 70´s Coppola, ICE simply is like a ...McG, doing a 90-minute resumed contract job on the ouevre of QT, MS and FFC together...

ROTCG is a single tome with a potential tetralogy hidden in it.

Sorry, fanboys, just my 2 cents on the matter...

A tetralogy with 80% boring setup and filler.

OK, acknowledged...- but, curious - what holds you to the cycle, if THAT is your gripe ?

Because the "80% boring setup and filler" came first with TtH and then DoD. The previous books were IMO better. And I want to know how it ends and I hope the crippled god will be better.

Ulrik, on 08 May 2010 - 05:49 PM, said:

Try Eragon...magic swords, dragons, knights, less pages, less complexicity... (yep, this is joke...maybe not good, maybe little stingy, but still joke and it prevents his poster from torture, execution or flame...especially board flame)

E.G. George R.R. Martin doesn't need so much filler for his books.

Mod Edit: Double post merged to one.

[Garak]

Quote

E.G. George R.R. Martin doesn't need so much filler for his books.

He also takes forever to finish anything. He'll probably die of old age before the last book is out. Or maybe even before Dance is out at this rate.

[Chiggerflea]

This may have been mentioned elsewhere, but one of the things ICE doesn't do is provide strong thematic resonances in his writing. E.g. MoI had motherhood, Midnight Tides fraternity, Bonehunters drugs/hallucinogens and religion, and TtH had a feeling of a bardic poem throughout. These things make reading the main series vastly more enjoyable, for me anyway.

[worry]

That's an interesting point. I think he does actually develop themes, just not so superbly or cleanly as SE typically does. Being stuck in the past is probably the prominent theme, with the Old Guard, the Crimson Guard (esp. The Avowed), the reawakened squabbling between the cities of Quon Tali, Kyle's obsession with his people's wind gods, the mages on Otataral Island, the Seti Jackal Clan, and of course Traveller.

[Sindriss]

I wish he would finish Stonewielder already, that is my main critique!