[Osseric]

I'm back, I see not much has changed as Fener just got back. I was doing some thinking. Could we let day time out, have Liosan Heal Fener and make the Killers choose between Me Liosan Korbas Mockra and Ampleas? At the very least it gives us 1 person to narrow down, and if Fener does end up Dying, we called Liosan's healing bluff, and I will be glad to vote him. That means Korbas would have to pull his guard on Liosan, but with 2 killers remaining, the guard is pointless anyway. Does this work for everyone?

[Korbas]

I guess it all comes down to whether or not we believe Liosan's reveal. Either he was scum and false revealed at the hammer to set up for the next day, or he revealed on the hammer because he didn't want the killers changing their target to him. I did say I was guarding him earlier, however I think it's entirely possible he could have missed this. Why?

-Liosan said he skimed thread
-If I remember right Mockra used this skimming against him in an argument
-Do you really think Liosan could have pulled off such a plan if he had just skimmed? I think he would have been picking every bit of information he could from the thread

The more I've thought about Liosan being scum the less sure I am. I think there's still a pretty big possibility, but I'm not 100% sure like I was before. Sure, Mockra made a pretty good case against him, however it's in Mockra's best interest to do so if he's scum - after all, he almost got speed lynched on Friday.

But yah, it's still up in the air for me. Today looks like it's either going to be a Liosan or Ampelas lynch, unless Osseric gets on to change his vote to Mockra (if we go that way). Have you reached a decision as to who you're going to vote for, Fener?
And Osseric, I'd rather get this game finished up today.

[Korbas]

Osseric, on 10 May 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

I'm back, I see not much has changed as Fener just got back. I was doing some thinking. Could we let day time out, have Liosan Heal Fener and make the Killers choose between Me Liosan Korbas Mockra and Ampleas? At the very least it gives us 1 person to narrow down, and if Fener does end up Dying, we called Liosan's healing bluff, and I will be glad to vote him. That means Korbas would have to pull his guard on Liosan, but with 2 killers remaining, the guard is pointless anyway. Does this work for everyone?

This would not work. If I'm guarding Liosan his healing obviously isn't going to work on Fener, so we can't accuse him of being the killer if Fener does die.

[Fener]

Osseric, on 10 May 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

I'm back, I see not much has changed as Fener just got back. I was doing some thinking. Could we let day time out, have Liosan Heal Fener and make the Killers choose between Me Liosan Korbas Mockra and Ampleas? At the very least it gives us 1 person to narrow down, and if Fener does end up Dying, we called Liosan's healing bluff, and I will be glad to vote him. That means Korbas would have to pull his guard on Liosan, but with 2 killers remaining, the guard is pointless anyway. Does this work for everyone?

This is a scum idea. Not saying you are but having a potential healer heal someone other then a guard at the end of the game is a move that would only benefit scum. It doesn't matter if I am nked as I am roleless. But if Korbas dies then we have basically lost.

[Fener]

Korbas, on 10 May 2010 - 04:10 PM, said:

I guess it all comes down to whether or not we believe Liosan's reveal. Either he was scum and false revealed at the hammer to set up for the next day, or he revealed on the hammer because he didn't want the killers changing their target to him. I did say I was guarding him earlier, however I think it's entirely possible he could have missed this. Why?

-Liosan said he skimed thread
-If I remember right Mockra used this skimming against him in an argument
-Do you really think Liosan could have pulled off such a plan if he had just skimmed? I think he would have been picking every bit of information he could from the thread

The more I've thought about Liosan being scum the less sure I am. I think there's still a pretty big possibility, but I'm not 100% sure like I was before. Sure, Mockra made a pretty good case against him, however it's in Mockra's best interest to do so if he's scum - after all, he almost got speed lynched on Friday.

But yah, it's still up in the air for me. Today looks like it's either going to be a Liosan or Ampelas lynch, unless Osseric gets on to change his vote to Mockra (if we go that way). Have you reached a decision as to who you're going to vote for, Fener?
And Osseric, I'd rather get this game finished up today.

Here is the major problem that I have with Liosan's reveal. Is if there is killer partners then they can probably talk to each other. So if Liosan is a noob and he is partnered with a vet then the vet could have easily told him exactly what to do and how to do it. That is a scenario that I can easily see happening.

[Korbas]

Does Osseric strike you as a veteran or exceptionally clever?

[Liosan]

Ampelas, on 10 May 2010 - 09:09 AM, said:

Right, I am back. Sorry again for my absence, weekends are not the best time for me in terms of mafia, this one more so than usual.

Lio, I'm not afrad to participate, I was just pressed for time - the post I made contained the most important of my thoughts, now that I have slightly more time I can explain myself a little better.

Firstly, as I stated before, I'm not buying your reveal. Your timing is oh-so-convenient and the way you've chosen to play is not the way I see a healer playing. Hinting that you have something to reveal before the end of day. Waiting till after a lynch to reveal, knowing full well you had a guard on you, then using that guard to somehow confirm your story, pushing a lynch on Mockra using very circumstantial evidence. None of it plays like a inno healer. So I think you are scum, hence the vote for you. Based on what's happened the last while, I would say Osseric is likely your partner. Korbas could also possibly be your partner, but if that's the case you guys have used a helluva risky strategy and really played a long game to manipulate the thread from so early on.

Granted I could be wrong, but I highly doubt that is the case. If I have made a mistake, the only other people who could possibly be scum are Fener and Mockra. Everyone else has gotten into pretty serious fights/voted for everyone else, at a level much too serious to be distancing. Fener-Mockra strikes me as unlikely though - while Mockra has been a bit flakey, Fener is probably the person I trust most to be innocent at this point.

Other than that I don't see what there is to say, I'm not going to constantly repeat myself and make huge posts railing at everyone - I've stated why I voted for you both now and when I made my vote.

Look people I made a mistake. I had my reveal all typed up in word. I logged into the forum in the morning saw that I would be the hammer vote on D'riss and knew that I could get a lynch and also get my reveal in without any change in night actions based on my reveal. I honestly thought I could possibly be night killed and I wanted to get my information out. I didn't have time to read what anybody said leading up to that vote so I had no idea that I was guarded by Liosan. Take it for what you will. I want the potatoes to win.

If we go without a lynch today the only two people that will get night killed would be either Korbas or Fener. The real killers will not take me out because then it would prove that I am telling the truth and they wouldn't take Osseric out because everyone believes that he is my partner. Also they couldn't night kill their partner because that would also prove that I am right. So I propose that we go to night. I put in a heal on either Korbas or Fener. I have a 50% shot at getting it right. If I get it wrong then you can lynch me tomorrow. But if I get it right then you will know that I am the healer and we can then vote out Mockra or Ampelas.

Either way this game needs to end. I'm proposing a solution that wouldn't end the game in a win for either team and could very possibly give the potatoes a chance to win the game. I'm okay with this option now because I believe Korbas really wants to have a chance to win it for the good guys and will take the information learned to make the right decision.

[Osseric]

I'm around all day, I am happy with a Mockra or a Amplease vote.

[Liosan]

Fener, on 10 May 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

Osseric, on 10 May 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

I'm back, I see not much has changed as Fener just got back. I was doing some thinking. Could we let day time out, have Liosan Heal Fener and make the Killers choose between Me Liosan Korbas Mockra and Ampleas? At the very least it gives us 1 person to narrow down, and if Fener does end up Dying, we called Liosan's healing bluff, and I will be glad to vote him. That means Korbas would have to pull his guard on Liosan, but with 2 killers remaining, the guard is pointless anyway. Does this work for everyone?

This is a scum idea. Not saying you are but having a potential healer heal someone other then a guard at the end of the game is a move that would only benefit scum. It doesn't matter if I am nked as I am roleless. But if Korbas dies then we have basically lost.

How can you say this? Even without a guard there would be three potatoes to 2 killers remaining. 3 to lynch a killer with a healer still in play. Even if the healer gets it wrong then there are two potatoes to one killer. Two votes to finish of the remaining killer. Potatoes win. It's a numbers game now.

[Fener]

Korbas, on 10 May 2010 - 04:22 PM, said:

Does Osseric strike you as a veteran or exceptionally clever?

Well I haven't been able to alt him yet. Which could mean that either I have totally lost my touch or he is posting in a pattern different enough to throw me off. Either one would be the mark of someone clever and a vet.

[Osseric]

Fener, on 10 May 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

Osseric, on 10 May 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

I'm back, I see not much has changed as Fener just got back. I was doing some thinking. Could we let day time out, have Liosan Heal Fener and make the Killers choose between Me Liosan Korbas Mockra and Ampleas? At the very least it gives us 1 person to narrow down, and if Fener does end up Dying, we called Liosan's healing bluff, and I will be glad to vote him. That means Korbas would have to pull his guard on Liosan, but with 2 killers remaining, the guard is pointless anyway. Does this work for everyone?

This is a scum idea. Not saying you are but having a potential healer heal someone other then a guard at the end of the game is a move that would only benefit scum. It doesn't matter if I am nked as I am roleless. But if Korbas dies then we have basically lost.

I see what you are saying.. but we are at D-day. any decision we make thats wrong is a loss. With 2 killers around and 5/6 people left, a guard is rather pointless. But I see what you are saying. I am working off the principle that the only people I am unsure of are Mockra, Ampleas, and Liosan. I am more willing to side with Liosan because of no counter reveal, and no NK on night 2, paired with the fact that the killers would have to have huge balls to fake reveal with multiple counters out there.

If the healer heals the guard in this situation, the only person that will be Killed is you, and then we are back to square 1. Everyone on thread has stated that you are CI...this pretty much garuantees you as the NK tonight if there is no lynch.

But like I said, having a known guard is really nice if we do choose correct tonight. So, it might not be the best idea. Just a thought.

[Korbas]

Going to night would accomplish nothing and prove nothing. The killers are obviously going to target me or Fener. If a kill didn't happen tonight it in no way would mean Liosan healed the right person - he could be a killer and him and Osseric could simply choose not to kill tonight to make it look like his heal worked, and so get the momentum to lynch Ampelas or Mockra. After they came up inno (if they did) it'd be 2 killers against me and Fener. Killers would just vote to go to night, kill, and end the game. There's a lot more possibilities that I'm not going to take the time to outline, but whatever we do today voting night isn't going to achieve anything.

[Korbas]

Ah, forgot to say it'd be 2 killers against me and Fener if they night killed Ampelas. Really they could NK any inno and still win.

[Liosan]

Osseric, on 10 May 2010 - 04:40 PM, said:

Fener, on 10 May 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

Osseric, on 10 May 2010 - 04:06 PM, said:

I'm back, I see not much has changed as Fener just got back. I was doing some thinking. Could we let day time out, have Liosan Heal Fener and make the Killers choose between Me Liosan Korbas Mockra and Ampleas? At the very least it gives us 1 person to narrow down, and if Fener does end up Dying, we called Liosan's healing bluff, and I will be glad to vote him. That means Korbas would have to pull his guard on Liosan, but with 2 killers remaining, the guard is pointless anyway. Does this work for everyone?

This is a scum idea. Not saying you are but having a potential healer heal someone other then a guard at the end of the game is a move that would only benefit scum. It doesn't matter if I am nked as I am roleless. But if Korbas dies then we have basically lost.

I see what you are saying.. but we are at D-day. any decision we make thats wrong is a loss. With 2 killers around and 5/6 people left, a guard is rather pointless. But I see what you are saying. I am working off the principle that the only people I am unsure of are Mockra, Ampleas, and Liosan. I am more willing to side with Liosan because of no counter reveal, and no NK on night 2, paired with the fact that the killers would have to have huge balls to fake reveal with multiple counters out there.

If the healer heals the guard in this situation, the only person that will be Killed is you, and then we are back to square 1. Everyone on thread has stated that you are CI...this pretty much garuantees you as the NK tonight if there is no lynch.

But like I said, having a known guard is really nice if we do choose correct tonight. So, it might not be the best idea. Just a thought.

You are right it's not a great shot but it is the ONLY way to have a CHANCE of learning with 100% certainty who the killers are. The killers already know that I was willing to not keal Korbas after he revealed as a guard on night 2 when I healed Galain so they will still be uncertain as to if I would do that again. I'm playing the ultimate WIFOM game with the killers. They know that I am right and they know that they only have 2 options for a night kill. Korbas and Fener. I'm ready to flip a coin to decide which one to heal but it all comes down to Korbas removing his guard on me and then ultimately guessing right. Does this plan have a chance to ultimately get us right back to where we are now. Absolutely!! But what if I get it right? Doesn't just the possibility of removing doubt and clearing up the picture worth doing? Like I said voting for night doesn't win or lose the game in of it self for either team. Wouldn't the killers want to push a lynch more than a vote for night at this point knowing that a wrong lynch wins it for them but a vote for night doesn't.

[Korbas]

Read my above post, Liosan. It details how you will win the game if we vote for night if you're a killer with Osseric.

[Liosan]

Korbas, on 10 May 2010 - 04:47 PM, said:

Going to night would accomplish nothing and prove nothing. The killers are obviously going to target me or Fener. If a kill didn't happen tonight it in no way would mean Liosan healed the right person - he could be a killer and him and Osseric could simply choose not to kill tonight to make it look like his heal worked, and so get the momentum to lynch Ampelas or Mockra. After they came up inno (if they did) it'd be 2 killers against me and Fener. Killers would just vote to go to night, kill, and end the game. There's a lot more possibilities that I'm not going to take the time to outline, but whatever we do today voting night isn't going to achieve anything.

Then I would be willing to continue to vote for night until we either force a draw or the killers ultimately get tired or the game and kill someone. I told you before I would much rather have a draw than a loss.

[Mockra]

Korbas, on 10 May 2010 - 04:10 PM, said:

I guess it all comes down to whether or not we believe Liosan's reveal. Either he was scum and false revealed at the hammer to set up for the next day, or he revealed on the hammer because he didn't want the killers changing their target to him. I did say I was guarding him earlier, however I think it's entirely possible he could have missed this. Why?

-Liosan said he skimed thread
-If I remember right Mockra used this skimming against him in an argument
-Do you really think Liosan could have pulled off such a plan if he had just skimmed? I think he would have been picking every bit of information he could from the thread

The more I've thought about Liosan being scum the less sure I am. I think there's still a pretty big possibility, but I'm not 100% sure like I was before. Sure, Mockra made a pretty good case against him, however it's in Mockra's best interest to do so if he's scum - after all, he almost got speed lynched on Friday.

But yah, it's still up in the air for me. Today looks like it's either going to be a Liosan or Ampelas lynch, unless Osseric gets on to change his vote to Mockra (if we go that way). Have you reached a decision as to who you're going to vote for, Fener?
And Osseric, I'd rather get this game finished up today.

The only difference is that, innos read the thread looking for potential slips from people so they can then understand if they are scum or not.
Scum read the thread for potential slips of people so they can bring confusion and cloud the thread, and drive us to wrong cases.In the dust, they reign.

Trouble is that I can say I skimmed the thread when it suits my purpose. Its up the the rest to believe me or not.

Liosans actions and reasoning has holes. Galain brought up 4 people in a list.His name as well. According to him, he would have benefited as much from killing Galain, as would the other 3. How did he come up to the conclusion that killing Galain was something done by my hand? What about the other two names in there? And mind you, that was his reasoning before he tried to drive a speed lynch on my ass.

Didn't bother to think who the other killer might be? Did not understand that if we lynch wrong, we lose the game? These are questions that team inno tries to find out, at all possible costs.

Who could be his partners? Could be Osseric for defending him, it could be Ampelas for distancing from him. I am not sure who it is. Trouble is , there aren't too much evidence to distinguise who among these two could be his partner. And we can't lynch one of these two right now because there's still a chance we might land wrong.


As far as the comment about the case I made, again, this is not something I pulled out of my ass, or out of thin air. Its things that Liosan -did- and -posted- in this thread that point to him at this point. Not my words. His actions.


Again, look at your question here:

Quote

-Do you really think Liosan could have pulled off such a plan if he had just skimmed? I think he would have been picking every bit of information he could from the thread

And try to answer it.

Liosan says he's innocent and also says he skimmed the thread. If he skimmed the thread, how come he 'remembers' a Galain list with Mockras name in it, while conviniently forgetting that his is inside it as well, along with 2 more names - Fener and Ampelas.
Liosan also skimmes the thread missing the D'riss VS Mockra pissing contest, and the entire case Korbas makes against D'riss, about him guarding it. He also skimms a significant volume of Korbas posts stating clearly Liosan is under surveilance and will be guarded.
And then Liosan drives a speed lynch against me with his reasoning that I would benefit the most from getting rid of Galain with a NK. While never crossing his mind that the killers could be Fener and Ampelas in our scenario (again, regardless of the outcome of that effort, we're going with evidence we have before that)

In Mockras Purple World, 'healers' who try to heal someone , when they know that they are under guard, and then grand reveal saying they played it tricky and 'healed' him again are called Liars.

[Liosan]

Liosan, on 10 May 2010 - 05:01 PM, said:

Korbas, on 10 May 2010 - 04:47 PM, said:

Going to night would accomplish nothing and prove nothing. The killers are obviously going to target me or Fener. If a kill didn't happen tonight it in no way would mean Liosan healed the right person - he could be a killer and him and Osseric could simply choose not to kill tonight to make it look like his heal worked, and so get the momentum to lynch Ampelas or Mockra. After they came up inno (if they did) it'd be 2 killers against me and Fener. Killers would just vote to go to night, kill, and end the game. There's a lot more possibilities that I'm not going to take the time to outline, but whatever we do today voting night isn't going to achieve anything.

Then I would be willing to continue to vote for night until we either force a draw or the killers ultimately get tired or the game and kill someone. I told you before I would much rather have a draw than a loss.

Oh. I see now. Shit..... well I'm all out of ideas then.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 4. 19 hours remain

6 players are alive
Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric

4 votes to lynch. 3 votes to go to night.


1 vote Ampelas (Osseric)
2 votes Liosan (Mockra,Ampelas)

Not voted
Fener, Kobas, Liosan

[Osseric]

Here is another point, If I was Liosan's partner like everyone says, why would I be so adamantly defending him in the open. I am basically throwing my eggs all in his basket. Wouldn't a killer partner see him going down and throw the hammer to at least kind-of distance himself, eat his losses and try to go from there? Until I started defending a Liosan lynch, no one had us as partners. That combo never came up until I decided to not vote Liosan. It seems silly, in my eyes, that if we were partners, that I would be acting the way I am.

Again, I am not saying Liosan isn't guilty, but Look at my behavior in relation to what you are accusing me of. Is a scum partner really going to stand up in thread and say "I am not voting that person" I've played a few Mafia games and I very rarely if ever, have seen that happen. I guess it boils down to wifom, but at a certain point you have to analyze behaviors and put yourself in someone else's shoes and ask, "would I do that?"

I am out for a while again, have a couple meetings and then lunch. I'll check back in to see if Fener/Korbas have made their decision. I don't really have more to add..I think we have discussed this to death.

I did do a reread on Ampleas to see if I could find any dirt... he has maybe 20 posts, throws around a bunch of WIFOM, and generaly is playing very low key. Basically riding Mockra's coat tails as he has contributed not much the last few days other than echoing Mockra's points. There really is no case to make on him, and that in itself says something to me.

ok I am out.

Ciao