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shit I almost lost the potatoes the game.
Mafia 62 - Meat vs. Potatoes yum
#622
Liosan 
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Posted 09 May 2010 - 07:41 PM
My reason would be that if both killers saw that I voted for night they would have as well. NK would have been Fener.
Then because Korbas is so dead set on having me lynched he would have voted for me and so would have the two killers and then game set match.
Then because Korbas is so dead set on having me lynched he would have voted for me and so would have the two killers and then game set match.
#623
Liosan
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Posted 09 May 2010 - 07:46 PM
Ampelas, on 08 May 2010 - 09:23 AM, said:
OK, I'm back. My apologies for not being around, RL stomped all over my plans yesterday and I couldn't get on around lynch time like I thought I would be able to. I see my name being bandied around a lot, which I find very suspicious - trying to push a lynch on the mysteriously absent player is always a good scum standbye. I also think the almost-speed-lynch on Mockra is very, very dodgy. Trying to push a lynch in the first couple of hours in a day is normally pretty suspiscious, even more so in a weekend freeze, even more more so when it's in all likelyhood D-Day. We have tons of time to make sure we get this right, being hasty only helps scum.
Now I know I am inno, and I believe Mockra has the most probable read on the situation. I'm not buying Lio's reveal - he revealed late, knowing he was going to be guarded. He then uses the fact that he was guarded as some sort of proof that he is in fact a healer. And he uses NK WIFOM to try drive a speed lynch on Mockra. On what is possibly D-Day. I'm sorry, I just dont see a healer playing like that.
vote Liosan
Now I know I am inno, and I believe Mockra has the most probable read on the situation. I'm not buying Lio's reveal - he revealed late, knowing he was going to be guarded. He then uses the fact that he was guarded as some sort of proof that he is in fact a healer. And he uses NK WIFOM to try drive a speed lynch on Mockra. On what is possibly D-Day. I'm sorry, I just dont see a healer playing like that.
vote Liosan
Where did this "I knew I was going to be guarded" bullshit come from. I was not on anybodies radar. I had no way of knowing that I would have been guarded. The only reason that I have any heat on me at all is because Mockra made a case on me one that would fit your shoes just as well. Yet because you haven't said shit for most of the game even the few times you do post I'm the more guilty party? i don't think so. I think you are conviently absent. Why put your foot in your mouth when you don't have to.
#624
Liosan
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Posted 09 May 2010 - 08:18 PM
Mockra, on 08 May 2010 - 11:40 PM, said:
Liosan,
We're so far into the game, and almost 600 posts, that things shouldn't be simply 'assumptions'. They have stopped being those , and became facts.
Facts that point out, that your actions are so questionable, and your defense so poor, that you are lying.
*It was no secret that you will be guarded on Night 3. It was in plain sight for everyone to see.
*Instead of revealing prior to hammering, when you had more than enough time to do so, and help us come to better conclusions, you chose to delay your post knowing fully well that you are under guard all this time. This is not a move that an inno healer does. This is a scum move.
*You build your case based upon a conversation with a moderator, and a list that Galain made, that had half the people in the game currently in it, with your name as well.Using him as an excuse you get rid of someone who is on your trail while you frame someone else.This is a scum move.
*You tried to force a speed lynch based on momentum instead of discussion and analyze of lynch train , vote patterns and posts.Riding momentum without evidence is not what inno players do.This is a scum move.
Once again where does this I knew for a fact that I would be guarded at night crap come from. The only people mentoning it are you and Ampelas the two people that I believe to be scum. Convienent. What is your reasoning? I didn't know I was guarded until after I put my vote on D'riss and Korbas told me I was guarded. I still didn't know for sure I was guarded until after Galain was NK'd. Where is your reason for this accusation.
All these are things you have not directly addressed, and I doubt you will. Your story has visible cracks all over it, and other people start to see it.
You proceed to find excuses by discrediting Korbas.You throw a theory that Korbas could be lying but a second guard (the true guard) guarded you on night 3.If there is a second guard, he had pleanty of time to allert us by now that Korbas reveals and claims are faulty- and would not let us lynch D'riss under those accusations.Mind I remind you, a lynch that you personally hammered.
I was accussed once again by you that I was beeing too narrow in my focus of people that I am looking at. It was my effort to "look at everyone" to prove to them that I am not interested in speed lynching you. It seems the only one dead set on getting anyone lynched is you. I'm willing to hold off until we get all of the facts and everyone to join in a conversation. Ampelas hasn't made a case on anyone he goes with the flow jumps on convienet lynch trains and doesn't say much of anything yet you are completely ignoring him in your crusade to win the scum the game by getting me lynched. Also in my comments about Korbas, I will speak very clearly on my thoughts of which side of the fence he is on. I believe that Korbas is the guard and I would not be willing to vote for him to be lynched. My comments about Korbas in that previous post was for the purpose of just pointing out that if Korbas does turn out to be scum then I will feel like a fool for being played.
You proceed to vote for Ampelas, and then immediately remove your vote while you write an entire post full of conspiracy theory that we are being played in a puppet-theatre by Korbas the maestro and orchestrate of the best scum move in the game so far.Mind you, that is a person that you have advocated that is inno WHILE he was on your side.And now you are trying to appear you are not sure.There's only one type in here who truelly knows who are the innos and who are not, and those are scum.
You then proceed to appeal to Korbas about a case, and perhaps get people to go back and vote on Ampelas. A person that noone has defended around here, someone you yourself voted, and retracted your vote immediately after.Discredit Korbas - appeal to Korbas, prod and pull , prod and pull.That is a scum move.
The proposal was Fener's proposal. Another person that I believe to be innocent. Why wouldn't I want to side with someone that is on my side? Why wouldn't you want to at least discuss his proposal? Looks like you are doing plenty of pull and prod on Korbas yourself.
And finally, you leave the thread exclaiming your innocence, while you try to put pressure on the rest of the inno team that the game is in their hands. Of course its in our hands now, that we got to the point we finally got.Shrugging off responsibility is not something innos do, and its not something I'm willing to do.
You repeatedly bring leaking cases and leaking evidence in the scene. Everything I have pointed out so far, are based on things you have said or done- YOUR actions. Not theory, not assumption, not conversations with moderators that can't be verified. Everything I have been pointing out about you, is right here, in this thread, and in the course of actions that you have chosen to follow.They speak louder than I do.
We're so far into the game, and almost 600 posts, that things shouldn't be simply 'assumptions'. They have stopped being those , and became facts.
Facts that point out, that your actions are so questionable, and your defense so poor, that you are lying.
*It was no secret that you will be guarded on Night 3. It was in plain sight for everyone to see.
*Instead of revealing prior to hammering, when you had more than enough time to do so, and help us come to better conclusions, you chose to delay your post knowing fully well that you are under guard all this time. This is not a move that an inno healer does. This is a scum move.
*You build your case based upon a conversation with a moderator, and a list that Galain made, that had half the people in the game currently in it, with your name as well.Using him as an excuse you get rid of someone who is on your trail while you frame someone else.This is a scum move.
*You tried to force a speed lynch based on momentum instead of discussion and analyze of lynch train , vote patterns and posts.Riding momentum without evidence is not what inno players do.This is a scum move.
Once again where does this I knew for a fact that I would be guarded at night crap come from. The only people mentoning it are you and Ampelas the two people that I believe to be scum. Convienent. What is your reasoning? I didn't know I was guarded until after I put my vote on D'riss and Korbas told me I was guarded. I still didn't know for sure I was guarded until after Galain was NK'd. Where is your reason for this accusation.
All these are things you have not directly addressed, and I doubt you will. Your story has visible cracks all over it, and other people start to see it.
You proceed to find excuses by discrediting Korbas.You throw a theory that Korbas could be lying but a second guard (the true guard) guarded you on night 3.If there is a second guard, he had pleanty of time to allert us by now that Korbas reveals and claims are faulty- and would not let us lynch D'riss under those accusations.Mind I remind you, a lynch that you personally hammered.
I was accussed once again by you that I was beeing too narrow in my focus of people that I am looking at. It was my effort to "look at everyone" to prove to them that I am not interested in speed lynching you. It seems the only one dead set on getting anyone lynched is you. I'm willing to hold off until we get all of the facts and everyone to join in a conversation. Ampelas hasn't made a case on anyone he goes with the flow jumps on convienet lynch trains and doesn't say much of anything yet you are completely ignoring him in your crusade to win the scum the game by getting me lynched. Also in my comments about Korbas, I will speak very clearly on my thoughts of which side of the fence he is on. I believe that Korbas is the guard and I would not be willing to vote for him to be lynched. My comments about Korbas in that previous post was for the purpose of just pointing out that if Korbas does turn out to be scum then I will feel like a fool for being played.
You proceed to vote for Ampelas, and then immediately remove your vote while you write an entire post full of conspiracy theory that we are being played in a puppet-theatre by Korbas the maestro and orchestrate of the best scum move in the game so far.Mind you, that is a person that you have advocated that is inno WHILE he was on your side.And now you are trying to appear you are not sure.There's only one type in here who truelly knows who are the innos and who are not, and those are scum.
You then proceed to appeal to Korbas about a case, and perhaps get people to go back and vote on Ampelas. A person that noone has defended around here, someone you yourself voted, and retracted your vote immediately after.Discredit Korbas - appeal to Korbas, prod and pull , prod and pull.That is a scum move.
The proposal was Fener's proposal. Another person that I believe to be innocent. Why wouldn't I want to side with someone that is on my side? Why wouldn't you want to at least discuss his proposal? Looks like you are doing plenty of pull and prod on Korbas yourself.
And finally, you leave the thread exclaiming your innocence, while you try to put pressure on the rest of the inno team that the game is in their hands. Of course its in our hands now, that we got to the point we finally got.Shrugging off responsibility is not something innos do, and its not something I'm willing to do.
You repeatedly bring leaking cases and leaking evidence in the scene. Everything I have pointed out so far, are based on things you have said or done- YOUR actions. Not theory, not assumption, not conversations with moderators that can't be verified. Everything I have been pointing out about you, is right here, in this thread, and in the course of actions that you have chosen to follow.They speak louder than I do.
#625
Korbas
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Posted 09 May 2010 - 08:19 PM
Korbas, on 07 May 2010 - 12:25 PM, said:
I asked, not begged, for a heal. If it is a two killer game, I won't even need it after your lynch as I'll be guarding Liosan, so long as my suspicions are correct.
#626
Liosan
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Posted 09 May 2010 - 08:42 PM
I never saw this post. If I had I would have asked that you not guard me and then Galain would still be in the game. Damn.
And no Mockra no more accusations about me skimming. I don't multitask very well and I was at work and had very little time to even get a quick look at the thread before I had to cast my vote and do my reveal.
And no Mockra no more accusations about me skimming. I don't multitask very well and I was at work and had very little time to even get a quick look at the thread before I had to cast my vote and do my reveal.
#627
Liosan
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Posted 09 May 2010 - 09:00 PM
So what do we do now? Korbas is dead set on getting me lynched and without his vote we can't get anybody else lynched? I'm pretty sure that Osseric and Fener believe me enough not to lynch me. Do we just time out and go to the next day even though there is no timer? I would rather have a stalemate than a loss.
Korbas if we go to night can you please remove your guard on me? If I'm a killer then the guard won't work anyway but if I'm a healer then I can at least heal someone and maybe get lucky to stop a kill. Will that prove to you that I'm not a killer if someone else gets healed?
Also if you believe that I'm a killer who else do you think I'm partnered with. There are most likely two killers based on speculation from ealier posts so who would my teammate be?
Mockra who do you think my partner is?
There has to be someone else that looks guilty as hell to you people if you believe that I'm scum. If so then who is it?
Korbas if we go to night can you please remove your guard on me? If I'm a killer then the guard won't work anyway but if I'm a healer then I can at least heal someone and maybe get lucky to stop a kill. Will that prove to you that I'm not a killer if someone else gets healed?
Also if you believe that I'm a killer who else do you think I'm partnered with. There are most likely two killers based on speculation from ealier posts so who would my teammate be?
Mockra who do you think my partner is?
There has to be someone else that looks guilty as hell to you people if you believe that I'm scum. If so then who is it?
#628
Path-Shaper
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Posted 09 May 2010 - 09:00 PM
It is Day 4. The clock is frozen, but lynches may continue.
6 players are alive
Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric
4 votes to lynch. 3 votes to go to night.
1 vote Ampelas (Osseric)
3 votes Liosan (Mockra, Korbas, Ampelas)
Not voted
Fener, Liosan
6 players are alive
Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric
4 votes to lynch. 3 votes to go to night.
1 vote Ampelas (Osseric)
3 votes Liosan (Mockra, Korbas, Ampelas)
Not voted
Fener, Liosan
Only someone with this much power could make this many frittatas without breaking any eggs.
#629
Korbas
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Posted 09 May 2010 - 09:16 PM
I'd say that teams are either Osseric and Liosan or Mockra and Ampelas. Unfortunate that there's no crossover, because at this point we have to be 100% sure and obviously it'd be easier if we had someone who could be on both teams. But we don't, so we have to make do with what we have.
Yes, Liosan, right now I am set on lynching you. There is some doubt in my mind because of something you said earlier concerning PM with Path-Shaper, however I don't think we're supposed to use that kind of information in the game and as a result I'm trying not to let it affect my vote.
Could you please build up a case on Mockra? Start giving my reasons why he's scum rather than ones as to why you're innocent. I'll remove my vote tentatively, but still realize that I'm as good as voting for you right now. I'm just interested in hearing what you have to say for yourself. I'd also like to hear Fener pitch in. By removing my vote it puts us at a deadlock, so now we can put all of our cards on the table.
Here's a complete layout of what I have done this game:
Day 1: I vote for Galain for reasons so stupid having no reason would have been more reasonable.
Night 1: I guard Eloth because of his team fish comment. Unfortunately I was offline and couldn't change this before he was lynched.
Day 2: I vote to lynch HP because Galain has made a convincing case against him.
Night 2: I guard D'riss. Night 2 passes and we have no kill, idiotically I assume it was because of my guard.
Day 3: I reveal and make a poor case against D'riss. D'riss is lynched not because of my reveal, but because of his chainposting freakout behavior.
Night 3: I guard Liosan, having stated earlier I was guarding him. It is possible he missed this since he skimmed the thread.
remove vote
EDIT: Grammar, vote
Yes, Liosan, right now I am set on lynching you. There is some doubt in my mind because of something you said earlier concerning PM with Path-Shaper, however I don't think we're supposed to use that kind of information in the game and as a result I'm trying not to let it affect my vote.
Could you please build up a case on Mockra? Start giving my reasons why he's scum rather than ones as to why you're innocent. I'll remove my vote tentatively, but still realize that I'm as good as voting for you right now. I'm just interested in hearing what you have to say for yourself. I'd also like to hear Fener pitch in. By removing my vote it puts us at a deadlock, so now we can put all of our cards on the table.
Here's a complete layout of what I have done this game:
Day 1: I vote for Galain for reasons so stupid having no reason would have been more reasonable.
Night 1: I guard Eloth because of his team fish comment. Unfortunately I was offline and couldn't change this before he was lynched.
Day 2: I vote to lynch HP because Galain has made a convincing case against him.
Night 2: I guard D'riss. Night 2 passes and we have no kill, idiotically I assume it was because of my guard.
Day 3: I reveal and make a poor case against D'riss. D'riss is lynched not because of my reveal, but because of his chainposting freakout behavior.
Night 3: I guard Liosan, having stated earlier I was guarding him. It is possible he missed this since he skimmed the thread.
remove vote
EDIT: Grammar, vote
This post has been edited by Korbas: 09 May 2010 - 09:16 PM
#630
Path-Shaper
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Posted 09 May 2010 - 09:56 PM
It is Day 4. The clock is frozen, but lynches may continue.
6 players are alive
Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric
4 votes to lynch. 3 votes to go to night.
1 vote Ampelas (Osseric)
2 votes Liosan (Mockra,Ampelas)
Not voted
Fener, Kobas, Liosan
6 players are alive
Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric
4 votes to lynch. 3 votes to go to night.
1 vote Ampelas (Osseric)
2 votes Liosan (Mockra,Ampelas)
Not voted
Fener, Kobas, Liosan
This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 09 May 2010 - 09:57 PM
Only someone with this much power could make this many frittatas without breaking any eggs.
#631
Liosan
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Posted 10 May 2010 - 05:21 AM
I was doing a reread on the thread so i can put together a solid case for Korbas's benifit and only got to page 6 when I decided to call it a night. As I was looking at a lot of earlier post that Ampelas was a part of. Then i noticed that we haven't heard much from him in the last couple of days. Am I the only one that is curious as to what is really going on with him? He has something like two posts all weekend. Does he have nothing original to say? Ampelas who do you think the two killers are and why? Why are you afraid to participate? Were you hoping to have Osseric or Fener come on my train so you can celebrate the scums win? You see no heat your way so you don't feel like you want to participate? Wouldn't a potato want to talk things over and discuss what our all of our options on what is most likely D-Day? Why are you content to just sit back and wait for the votes to fall against me? Mockra at least, even though wrongly (intentionally or innocently is to be determined), is trying to find who the killers are. You don't seem concerned at all with what is going on. Why?
Well I'm off to bed.
Well I'm off to bed.
#632
Tapper
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Posted 10 May 2010 - 07:39 AM
Hi people.
As a result of my request for alts to Silencer, several alt-passwords (and access to SH and P-S) were changed.
Out of: Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric
the following alts were changed: Fener, Liosan, Mockra.
I'll send the updated alts through to the players behind them.
Once again, sorry for the inconvenience (although, judging from Liosan's last post, the time you couldn't log in was around 2 hours tops).
As a result of my request for alts to Silencer, several alt-passwords (and access to SH and P-S) were changed.
Out of: Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric
the following alts were changed: Fener, Liosan, Mockra.
I'll send the updated alts through to the players behind them.
Once again, sorry for the inconvenience (although, judging from Liosan's last post, the time you couldn't log in was around 2 hours tops).
Everyone is entitled to his own wrong opinion. - Lizrad
#633
Ampelas
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Posted 10 May 2010 - 09:09 AM
Right, I am back. Sorry again for my absence, weekends are not the best time for me in terms of mafia, this one more so than usual.
Lio, I'm not afrad to participate, I was just pressed for time - the post I made contained the most important of my thoughts, now that I have slightly more time I can explain myself a little better.
Firstly, as I stated before, I'm not buying your reveal. Your timing is oh-so-convenient and the way you've chosen to play is not the way I see a healer playing. Hinting that you have something to reveal before the end of day. Waiting till after a lynch to reveal, knowing full well you had a guard on you, then using that guard to somehow confirm your story, pushing a lynch on Mockra using very circumstantial evidence. None of it plays like a inno healer. So I think you are scum, hence the vote for you. Based on what's happened the last while, I would say Osseric is likely your partner. Korbas could also possibly be your partner, but if that's the case you guys have used a helluva risky strategy and really played a long game to manipulate the thread from so early on.
Granted I could be wrong, but I highly doubt that is the case. If I have made a mistake, the only other people who could possibly be scum are Fener and Mockra. Everyone else has gotten into pretty serious fights/voted for everyone else, at a level much too serious to be distancing. Fener-Mockra strikes me as unlikely though - while Mockra has been a bit flakey, Fener is probably the person I trust most to be innocent at this point.
Other than that I don't see what there is to say, I'm not going to constantly repeat myself and make huge posts railing at everyone - I've stated why I voted for you both now and when I made my vote.
Lio, I'm not afrad to participate, I was just pressed for time - the post I made contained the most important of my thoughts, now that I have slightly more time I can explain myself a little better.
Firstly, as I stated before, I'm not buying your reveal. Your timing is oh-so-convenient and the way you've chosen to play is not the way I see a healer playing. Hinting that you have something to reveal before the end of day. Waiting till after a lynch to reveal, knowing full well you had a guard on you, then using that guard to somehow confirm your story, pushing a lynch on Mockra using very circumstantial evidence. None of it plays like a inno healer. So I think you are scum, hence the vote for you. Based on what's happened the last while, I would say Osseric is likely your partner. Korbas could also possibly be your partner, but if that's the case you guys have used a helluva risky strategy and really played a long game to manipulate the thread from so early on.
Granted I could be wrong, but I highly doubt that is the case. If I have made a mistake, the only other people who could possibly be scum are Fener and Mockra. Everyone else has gotten into pretty serious fights/voted for everyone else, at a level much too serious to be distancing. Fener-Mockra strikes me as unlikely though - while Mockra has been a bit flakey, Fener is probably the person I trust most to be innocent at this point.
Other than that I don't see what there is to say, I'm not going to constantly repeat myself and make huge posts railing at everyone - I've stated why I voted for you both now and when I made my vote.
#634
Mockra
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Posted 10 May 2010 - 11:09 AM
Tapper, on 10 May 2010 - 07:39 AM, said:
Hi people.
As a result of my request for alts to Silencer, several alt-passwords (and access to SH and P-S) were changed.
Out of: Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric
the following alts were changed: Fener, Liosan, Mockra.
I'll send the updated alts through to the players behind them.
Once again, sorry for the inconvenience (although, judging from Liosan's last post, the time you couldn't log in was around 2 hours tops).
As a result of my request for alts to Silencer, several alt-passwords (and access to SH and P-S) were changed.
Out of: Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric
the following alts were changed: Fener, Liosan, Mockra.
I'll send the updated alts through to the players behind them.
Once again, sorry for the inconvenience (although, judging from Liosan's last post, the time you couldn't log in was around 2 hours tops).
I call your bluff, sir.
Our undercover network got this X-rated evidence.
Here's the true side of the story...
http://www.grapheine...c6cf4d78e8.html
#636
Path-Shaper
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Posted 10 May 2010 - 12:09 PM
Anyone that doesnt have SH access, or is having any issues, pm me. I will get to you as soon as I can.
Only someone with this much power could make this many frittatas without breaking any eggs.
#637
Path-Shaper
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Posted 10 May 2010 - 12:16 PM
It is Day 4. 24 hours remain
6 players are alive
Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric
4 votes to lynch. 3 votes to go to night.
1 vote Ampelas (Osseric)
2 votes Liosan (Mockra,Ampelas)
Not voted
Fener, Kobas, Liosan
6 players are alive
Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric
4 votes to lynch. 3 votes to go to night.
1 vote Ampelas (Osseric)
2 votes Liosan (Mockra,Ampelas)
Not voted
Fener, Kobas, Liosan
Only someone with this much power could make this many frittatas without breaking any eggs.
#638
Path-Shaper
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Posted 10 May 2010 - 02:57 PM
It is Day 4. 21 hours 18 minutes remain
6 players are alive
Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric
4 votes to lynch. 3 votes to go to night.
1 vote Ampelas (Osseric)
2 votes Liosan (Mockra,Ampelas)
Not voted
Fener, Kobas, Liosan
6 players are alive
Ampelas,Fener,Korbas,Liosan,Mockra,Osseric
4 votes to lynch. 3 votes to go to night.
1 vote Ampelas (Osseric)
2 votes Liosan (Mockra,Ampelas)
Not voted
Fener, Kobas, Liosan
Only someone with this much power could make this many frittatas without breaking any eggs.
#639
Fener
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Posted 10 May 2010 - 03:04 PM
Ok I am finally back. I don't know how much help I will be right now as I am being slammed in RL.
From what I can see it looks like I am in full agreement with Korbas as to possible teams. Unless some of you guys are doing the best distancing moves in the history of mafia.
Osseric and Liosan or Ampelas and Mockra.
Right now I have no idea. Liosan's reveal was suspicious as hell. What with his teasing then revealing as he hammered.
Then Mockra is loud makes some decent points but is loud and very aggressive. Which to me can be either scum or innocent.
I don't have time to make cases and what not but I will try to decide who to vote for in the next couple of hours just to finish this thing up.
From what I can see it looks like I am in full agreement with Korbas as to possible teams. Unless some of you guys are doing the best distancing moves in the history of mafia.
Osseric and Liosan or Ampelas and Mockra.
Right now I have no idea. Liosan's reveal was suspicious as hell. What with his teasing then revealing as he hammered.
Then Mockra is loud makes some decent points but is loud and very aggressive. Which to me can be either scum or innocent.
I don't have time to make cases and what not but I will try to decide who to vote for in the next couple of hours just to finish this thing up.
