[dreamtide]

Hey all,

I'm a newcomer to the forum but I've been an SE fan for a long time, I've read everything Malaz-related by him and Ian Cameron Esselmont released to date. I'm reserving judgment on Dust of Dreams until TCG comes out-- Erikson has asked us to consider those novels together, and so I will.

But as I've been lurking in the forum for the last few weeks after finishing DoD, absorbing the major fan theories, one thing has really surprised me. It seems as though Memories of Ice is pretty universally considered to be one of the best installments of the series, while I had always considered it and House of Chains to be Erikson's two weakest books.

Don't get me wrong-- I loved MoI, anything Erikson writes is still lightyears ahead of most of what passes for mainstream fantasy these days. The Grey Shields plot was especially well done and Itkovian's final sacrifice was beautiful (and set up the even more heart-wrenching TtH plot focused on Itkovian). But it also seemed slow-paced, loaded with uninteresting characters and subplots (the Mhybe, Bauchelain/Korbal Broach, Silverfox, even Lady Envy and Toc started to grate on me after a while).

I recognize that part of what frustrated me a little bit about the pacing of MoI was that it is the first time Erikson really stops and tries to give some pretty significant background on the mythology of his world. There's a lot about the metaphysics of the Warrens, ancient history, etc. While all that is probably necessary and definitely enriches all the books that come later, it still makes for slow going.

My sense is that House of Chains is less well-regarded, but just in case that generates controversy too: the whole first quarter of the book is devoted to Karsa Orlong, who I find to be Erikson's most boring and one-dimensional character, the politicking in Raraku is boring, the final battle is completely subverted by a deus ex machina that doesn't really make sense, etc. The only good thing about this book is that it sees the birth of the Bonehunters, who become one of the most fascinating groups in the Malazworld later on.

So my question is, why is it just taken for granted that MoI is so great? What is the appeal for people in that book? I don't really see it myself.

[worry]

The answer is, nobody is taking anything for granted. Fans of MOI have indeed read it, and found it to be a most excellent entry. That's all it comes down to. I haven't been here that long either, but I've found this forum to have a relatively remarkable lack of pretense across the board. Opinions run the gamut, there's plenty of disagreements and even arguments, but nobody's faking any like or dislike of the books. It's just a matter of fact that some things you find uninteresting, others find very interesting, and vice versa. Same as anything.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

dreamtide, on 23 April 2010 - 04:11 AM, said:

So my question is, why is it just taken for granted that MoI is so great? What is the appeal for people in that book? I don't really see it myself.

-Bridgeburners
-Grey Swords
-QB deciding to put himself in the path of the CG
-Tool and Toc's friendship
-the Seguleh
-many massive battle scenes
-Malazans working with Dujek and Rake
-Whiskeyjack's friendship with Rake
-the end of the Diaspora and the return of the T'lan Imass
-a Raest cameo
-Undead K'Chain Che Malle
-Gruntle turning into a beast in Capustan (both literally and figuratively)
-Lady Envy casually destroying Pannion armies with a little help from some friends
-the heartbreaking nature of Whiskeyjack's death
-finding out that Paran is the Master of the Deck
-Itkovian's sacrifice for the T'lan Imass
-Moon's Spawn bursting out from the water completely undetected and pancaking the crazy Matron
-and finally, the biggest teaser of the entire series, finding out there are human armies somewhere that are so badass they destroy two full clans of T'lan Imass


...But I've only read it once and it hasn't been for awhile so I'm probably forgetting a lot.

[worry]

Crone.


I say that like SE says Kallor. or Draconus.

[caladanbrood]

 Welcome to the forums

I don't think it's taken for granted at all. I think in general, people enjoy the storylines in MoI. The Mhybe is not particularly popular, but apart from that there isn't really a weak link. It's a shame you don't enjoy those characters you stated, but I think the majority do - Toc is kinda awesome, and the interaction between the Seguleh and Tool keeps that arc going strong. Bauchelain and Broach are used well as a device to heighten the situation in Capustan, and are also a decent piece of comic relief. Even Silverfox is worth it due to the vital part she plays in making possible what I think is the single best scene in the entire series, Itkovian's death.



But if you don't particularly like it, then that's fair enough. I would agree more with you on HoC, which is personally my least favourite. I only started enjoying Karsa in Reaper's Gale, personally, and there are certainly other weaknesses in the book.

This post has been edited by caladanbrood: 23 April 2010 - 08:11 AM

[Mrs Savagely Wishy Washy]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 23 April 2010 - 06:10 AM, said:

dreamtide, on 23 April 2010 - 04:11 AM, said:

So my question is, why is it just taken for granted that MoI is so great? What is the appeal for people in that book? I don't really see it myself.

-Bridgeburners
-Grey Swords
-QB deciding to put himself in the path of the CG
-Tool and Toc's friendship
-the Seguleh
-many massive battle scenes
-Malazans working with Dujek and Rake
-Whiskeyjack's friendship with Rake
-the end of the Diaspora and the return of the T'lan Imass
-a Raest cameo
-Undead K'Chain Che Malle
-Gruntle turning into a beast in Capustan (both literally and figuratively)
-Lady Envy casually destroying Pannion armies with a little help from some friends
-the heartbreaking nature of Whiskeyjack's death
-finding out that Paran is the Master of the Deck
-Itkovian's sacrifice for the T'lan Imass
-Moon's Spawn bursting out from the water completely undetected and pancaking the crazy Matron
-and finally, the biggest teaser of the entire series, finding out there are human armies somewhere that are so badass they destroy two full clans of T'lan Imass


...But I've only read it once and it hasn't been for awhile so I'm probably forgetting a lot.

spot on.
I cried when Whiskeyjack died, - and again when Whiskeyjack and the Bridgeburners were put to rest in Moon's Spawn by Anomander himself.


the first book where I find some lengthy bits is BH, but I am thinking of rereading all the books before going on to RG, I think it's more because I don't have all the plots and timelines in my head and not an issue with the writing. There are so many ins and outs.

This post has been edited by Miss Savage: 23 April 2010 - 08:10 AM

[Garak]

I admit I love MoI because of the action and the tragedies... but mostly the action . As for HoC... well I think it feels like the weakest because I was thirsty for blood -didn't read the series in order and HoC was read just after DG so you can imagine- and hoping the Malazans would kick some rebel ass. Instead the ass got kicked by angry ghosts (still good but not what I needed at that time) and then there was Felisin. I kept expecting Tavore to look and figure out who she killed but nothing happened. As fir Karsa, I'm torn on him. He has moments when I actually like him and he then ruins them by going "Witness!" five pages later.

[Gothos]

DG and MoI are gateways into the series, and of the two, MoI offers a lot more. It's the first book where some serious insight into the world is offered, and you get the second shock, after the Chain of Dogs, in warfare. Capustan is wrenching, and so is Coral - both massacres could've been avoided if this or that. The butchering of the Grey Swords. The death of the Bridgeburners.
After these, Y'gathan, Edur vs Letherii, Lether again, the slaughter of Bonehunters, the reader is mostly used to things like that happening in Wu (even if the fall of the Bonehunters still got me raging at the OH SHIT SHIT of it).
With all respect for DG, MoI is the book where things start taking form. It's where the Crippled God rises to significance. It's where the solution to the Dragnipur dillema is first hinted at.
Still, it's not my favourite book (TTH is)

[Eispeis]

To each his own I guess. When I first started reading these forums I was under the impression that DhG was THE favourite book of the fourm, which I found odd as I found the book confusing, roundabout and a little long-winded at times. I absolutely loved MoI however. Mainly because of the reasons listed above. I mean - Capustan, Itkovian, Whiskeyjack dying, Toc dying and becoming the Mortal Sword of the Wolves of Winter this is some seriously great reading right there. The Mhybe was the only downside I could find in the book. I have only read the series once, but I still rate it as my favourite book. 

There's also been a lot of criticism of both HoC, MT and RG during the couple of years I've been here, but I still rate these books above DG and GotM.

The dislike of Karsa, for instance the dislike of 'Witness!' stated above, is precisely the reason I love the character. You need an Arnold Schwarzenegger in a world of Bruce Willises

[Gothos]

More like a Beowulf/Conan hybrid!

[Garak]

Quote

You need an Arnold Schwarzenegger in a world of Bruce Willises

Maybe I'd like him more if he had an Austrian accent like Arnold

[Eispeis]

Garak, on 23 April 2010 - 11:16 AM, said:

Quote

You need an Arnold Schwarzenegger in a world of Bruce Willises

Maybe I'd like him more if he had an Austrian accent like Arnold

Hey, it's your voice reading the books. Just add an Austrian accent whenever you read his dialogue.




"Ah vil split yuh in tvein vuman!" <- Extremely poor attempt at Arnold Orlong. Looks more like Count Dracula Orlong

[Jaghut Engine]

Would have to agree with most of the coments already here, I just realised too that it (kind of) is an ending of one saga of the series : ( Bridgeburners and Whiskey Jack,yes I know they appear in a later series), and a new 'thread' or 'story' is started from MT . But it could be seen differently....

[End of Disc One]

I love MoI because it's full of revelation after revelation. I love learning more about the world.

[Abyss]

Here's the thing about MoI...

GotM is your intro. It's complex and at times perplexing and while a fun read, it doesn't ring everyone's bells.
DG is different. DG's main storyline is the Chain, which is more or less the most original plotline i at least had ever read in fantasy lit. Then you have three or so other plotlines (Felisin and Heboric, Iccy and Mappo, Fid and co, Kalam, Lostara and Pearl) which are all basically variations on the 'bold adventurers' quest to get from point a to point b. All great reads, but not necessarily the most original of the trope.
And then we get to MoI. For me at least, MoI is the moment when SE takes the fantasy lit genre, picks it up, slaps it around, hold it up by its ankles and shakes it until all the usual junk falls out and then stomps it into mush and rebuilds it, better faster stronger... my metaphor is all over the place but the point is, that in MoI, SE takes so much of what we know in fantasy and improves on it at the same time as he breaks it. Moody elves, noble barbarians, brave leaders, alliances against evil foes, wise wizards, political plots, undead armies, warrior cults, dragons, he takes all of this to new/different places. And along the way he gives us some of the best mass action scenes in the genre or out of it. Capustan. The Grey Swords vs Kell Hunters. Coral.

My point being, MoI is where SE raised the game (tho i waver on whether that's actually DG) and where it becomes clear that he's going to provide us with something AWESOME.

And this is usually why people are dissappointed in HoC, because while it's got its share of the stabby splodyy, in scope and detail it's a way calmer book than MoI and coming off that, some people are dissappointed. I actually think HoC is where SE crystallizes the worlds a bit more.

All just imnsho, but there it is.

[Kryphon]

My personal favorite book of the series was MoI, followed by RG and HoC. Having said that, I felt the best written were MT and DG.. Now, I liked it best due to action, explanation (finally) of some things that were mostly mysteries up until that point, and learning that there is not much true evil in the series, mostly shades of grey. The scenes with Rake, Kruppe, the bridgeburners and their ultimate demise, as well as many others made this book for me. DG got me used to seeing things written in an ugly and sadly realistic way. How entire cultures are treated and used for the ambitions of one person are still things that happen every day. I'm very thankful for the realism in the books.

I got off topic.. MoI was and is my favorite. FOr all of them previously posted reasons.

Garak, on 23 April 2010 - 08:09 AM, said:

I admit I love MoI because of the action and the tragedies... but mostly the action . As for HoC... well I think it feels like the weakest because I was thirsty for blood -didn't read the series in order and HoC was read just after DG so you can imagine- and hoping the Malazans would kick some rebel ass. Instead the ass got kicked by angry ghosts (still good but not what I needed at that time) and then there was Felisin. I kept expecting Tavore to look and figure out who she killed but nothing happened. As fir Karsa, I'm torn on him. He has moments when I actually like him and he then ruins them by going "Witness!" five pages later.

[Kryphon]

Eispeis, on 23 April 2010 - 10:20 AM, said:

The dislike of Karsa, for instance the dislike of 'Witness!' stated above, is precisely the reason I love the character. You need an Arnold Schwarzenegger in a world of Bruce Willises

Karsa is still my favorite character. Watching his growth from a moronic barbarian to what he is at the end of TtH is amazing. He never stops suprising me and, oh yeah, he's a total badass! Smart as anyone in the series, ruthless and unpredictable. Somehow also very compassionate at times. Very complex and a great read.

[Quick Randy Adaephon Delat]

Abyss, on Posted 23 April 2010 - 09:27 AM, said:

Here's the thing about MoI...

GotM is your intro. It's complex and at times perplexing and while a fun read, it doesn't ring everyone's bells.
DG is different. DG's main storyline is the Chain, which is more or less the most original plotline i at least had ever read in fantasy lit. Then you have three or so other plotlines (Felisin and Heboric, Iccy and Mappo, Fid and co, Kalam, Lostara and Pearl) which are all basically variations on the 'bold adventurers' quest to get from point a to point b. All great reads, but not necessarily the most original of the trope.
And then we get to MoI. For me at least, MoI is the moment when SE takes the fantasy lit genre, picks it up, slaps it around, hold it up by its ankles and shakes it until all the usual junk falls out and then stomps it into much and rebuilds it, better faster stronger... my metaphor is all over the place but the point is, that in MoI, SE takes so much of what we know in fantasy and improves on it at the same time as he breaks it. Moody elves, noble barbarians, brave leaders, alliances against evil foes, wise wizards, political plots, undead armies, warrior cults, dragons, he takes all of this to new/different places. And along the way he gives us some of the best mass action scenes in the genre or out of it. Capustan. The Grey Swords vs Kell Hunters. Coral.

My point being, MoI is where SE raised the game (tho i waver on whether that's actually DG) and where it becomes clear that he's going to provide us with something AWESOME.

Very well said, couln't agree more.

[KeithF]

Memories of Ice is slow-paced? I'd have said it was one of the paciest and most consistently action-packed books in the series, myself. The really slow ones are the ones where almost all the major events are at the end and everything else is buildup (TtH being arguably the chief offender). I think that's part of why it's so popular - it never gets bogged down in lots of repetitive introspection and foreshadowing. Plus, as others have said, it's the first book where the history and cosmology of Erikson's world become something resembling a coherent whole.

[Epiph]

Gothos, on 23 April 2010 - 09:09 AM, said:

With all respect for DG, MoI is the book where things start taking form. It's where the Crippled God rises to significance. It's where the solution to the Dragnipur dillema is first hinted at.

This...

Abyss, on 23 April 2010 - 02:27 PM, said:

And then we get to MoI. For me at least, MoI is the moment when SE takes the fantasy lit genre, picks it up, slaps it around, hold it up by its ankles and shakes it until all the usual junk falls out and then stomps it into mush and rebuilds it, better faster stronger... my metaphor is all over the place but the point is, that in MoI, SE takes so much of what we know in fantasy and improves on it at the same time as he breaks it. Moody elves, noble barbarians, brave leaders, alliances against evil foes, wise wizards, political plots, undead armies, warrior cults, dragons, he takes all of this to new/different places. And along the way he gives us some of the best mass action scenes in the genre or out of it. Capustan. The Grey Swords vs Kell Hunters. Coral.

My point being, MoI is where SE raised the game (tho i waver on whether that's actually DG) and where it becomes clear that he's going to provide us with something AWESOME.

...and this.

For me, MoI was where the bigger picture crystallized...we're heading for a giant convergence related to the Crippled God...and this, this incredibly tragic war against the Pannion Domin? THAT IS ONLY THE BEGINNING!

Also, I love me some Paran, and I love me some Quick Ben, and they both really shine in this book.