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Something interesting a nice breadcrumb trail

#1 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 02:18 AM

For WoT fans, most of the fun comes from the little breadcrumb trails that RJ left for us in the books. Some of them lead to some very interesting places. Anyway, it's been 18 years since The Shadow Rising was released, and I can't believe I was the first to discover this little gem, but I'm at least a little proud of the fact.

A little back-history for the casual fans:

1. Rand discovers in book 4 (The Shadow Rising) that his mother was Aiel only by adoption, but he doesn't learn until book 6 that she was Tigraine of House Mantear, the daughter-heir of Andor that disappeared, leading to the Succession by which Morgase of House Trakand (Elayne's mother) ascended the throne. This makes him distantly related to Elayne, but not close enough to worry about. All of the major Houses of Andor are directly descended from Ishara, the first Queen of Andor.

2. Ishara's grandfather, Joal Ramedar, was the last king of Aldeshar (Ishara's mother, Ramedar's daughter, was a regional governor under Artur Hawkwing's rule). Aldeshar, definitely the strongest of the pre-Conquest nations, was the last nation to fall to Hawkwing. Mat has 'Finn-given memories of being Culain, who was Joal Ramedar's general; in fact, he specifically remembers dying after the battle where Aldeshar was finally defeated.

3. Oddly, the coloring of the Andoran royal line is similar to the Aiel coloring, with the light eyes and red-gold hair. This fact is what led me to be suspicious, whilst I was reading the bit where Rand goes through the glass columns in Rhuidean. Here, he sees the history of the Aiel through the eyes of his paternal line (via his father, Janduin, who was clan chief of the Taardad Aiel).

This is near the end of the Breaking, over 2000 years before Hawkwing. Some years before, the Aiel had reached the Aryth Coast, where they decided to turn around and head south.

RJ said:

TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 26 - The Dedicated

Adan lay in the sandy hollow clutching his dead son's weeping children, shielding their eyes against his ragged coat. Tears rolled down his face, too, but silently, as he peered cautiously over the edge. At five and six, Maigran and Lewin deserved the right to cry; Adan was surprised he had any tears left, himself.

Some of the wagons were burning. The dead lay where they had fallen. The horses had already been driven off, except for those still hitched to a few wagons that had been emptied onto the ground. For once he took no notice of the crated things the Aes Sedai had given into Aiel charge, toppled carelessly into the dirt. It was not the first time he had seen that, or dead Aiel, but this time he could not care. The men with the swords and spears and bows, the men who had done the killing, were loading those empty wagons. With women. He watched Rhea, his daughter, shoved up into a wagon box with the others, crowded together like animals by laughing killers. The last of his children. Elwin dead of hunger at ten, Sorelle at twenty of fever her dreams told her was coming, and Jaren, who threw himself off a cliff a year ago, at nineteen, when he found he could channel. Marind, this morning.

He wanted to scream. He wanted to rush out there and stop them from taking his last child. Stop them, somehow. And if he did rush out? They would kill him, and take Rhea anyway. They might well kill the children, too. Some of those bodies sprawled in their own blood were small.

Maigran clutched at him as if she sensed he might leave her, and Lewin stiffened as if he wanted to hold tighter but thought himself too old. Adan smoothed their hair and kept their faces pressed against his chest. He made himself watch, though, until the wagons wheeled away surrounded by whooping riders, after the horses that were already almost out of sight toward the smoking mountains that lined the horizon.

Only then did he stand up, prying the children loose. "Wait here for me," he told them. "Wait until I come back." Clinging to each other, they stared at him with tear-stained white faces, nodded uncertainly.

He walked out to one of the bodies, rolled her over gently. Siedre could have been asleep, her face just the way it appeared beside him when he woke each morning. It always surprised him to notice gray in her red-gold hair; she was his love, his life, and ever young and new to him. He tried not to look at the blood soaking the front of her dress or the gaping wound below her breasts.

1. Since his wife had red-gold hair, it's probably safe to assume that his daughter Rhea did as well.

2. They appear to be near the Mountains of Mist, which is close enough to Aldeshar/Andor to make this theory believable.

3. Rhea. This is the most convincing piece of evidence by far. Rhea, the mother of the gods, particularly the mother of Zeus. Rand has quite a few Zeus parallels, and Zeus has quite a few (al')Thor parallels as well! But mostly damning is this:

wiki said:

In art, Rhea is usually depicted seated in a throne flanked by lions or on a chariot drawn by two lions, and is not always distinguishable from Cybele.

Lion Throne, anyone? :D Also, the lions were important to Aldeshar - Mat notes that the men of Aldeshar were called the Golden Lions:

RJ said:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 3 - Pale Shadows

Mat muzzily considered the song he had been singing and grimaced. No one had heard "Dance with Jak o' the Shadows" since Aldeshar fell; in his head, he could still hear the defiant song rising as the Golden Lions launched their last, futile charge at Artur Hawkwing's encircling army. At least he had not been babbling it in the Old Tongue. He was not as juicy as he looked by half, but there had indeed been too many cups of oosquai.

The Golden Lions of Aldeshar became the White Lions of Andor.

And more of Mat's memories of that battle:

RJ said:

TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 3 - A Fan of Colors Tuon let out a long breath that did not sound won over in the slightest. "Do you remember Hawkwing's face, Toy?" Mistress Anan blinked in surprise, and Selucia sat up on the bed frowning. At him. Why would she frown at him? Tuon just continued to look at him, hands folded in her lap, as cool and collected as a Wisdom at Sunday.



Mat's smile felt frozen. Light, what did she know? How could she know anything? He lay beneath the burning sun, holding his side with both hands, trying to keep the last of life from leaking out and wondering whether there was any reason to hold on. Aldeshar was finished, after this day's work. A shadow blotted the sun for an instant, and then a tall man in armor crouched beside him, helmet tucked under his arm, dark deep-set eyes framing a hooked nose. "You fought well against me today, Culain, and many days past," that memorable voice said. "Will you live with me in peace? With his last breath, he laughed in Artur Hawkwing's face. He hated to remember dying. A dozen other encounters skittered through his mind, too, ancient memories that were his, now. Artur Paendrag had been a difficult man to get along with even before the wars started.



Drawing a deep breath, he took care choosing his words. This was no time to go spouting the Old Tongue. "Of course I don't!" he lied. A man who could not lie convincingly got short shrift from women. "Light, Hawkwing died a thousand years ago! What kind of question is that?"


Also, Perrin has something resembling a past life memory in a dream:

RJ said:

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 4 - Shadows Sleeping

He stared into the mirror, a part of him not comprehending what he saw, another part accepting. A gilded helmet, worked like a lion's head, sat on his head as if it belonged there. Gold leaf covered his ornately hammered breastplate, and gold-work embellished the plate and mail on his arms and legs. Only the axe at his side was plain. A voice – his own – whispered in his mind that he would take it over any other weapon, had carried it a thousand times, in a hundred battles. No! He wanted to take it off, throw it away. I can't! There was a sound in his head, louder than a murmur, almost at the level of understanding.


Could Perrin have been the last king of Aldeshar in a past life? Mat was apparently Aemon, last king of Manetheren, in a past life - either that, or he was descended from Aemon, because he remembers being Aemon before he visits 'Finnland - so it's not too out there that Perrin might have been Joal Ramedar.

So.....apparently, both of Rand's parents - and Elayne, and all the other Andoran nobles - are descended directly from Adan, father of Rhea. Just thought I would share. :D

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#2 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 05:48 AM

View PostTerez, on 19 April 2010 - 02:18 AM, said:

So.....apparently, both of Rand's parents - and Elayne, and all the other Andoran nobles - are descended directly from Adan, father of Rhea. Just thought I would share. Posted Image

So your point is that Jordan has a highly stratified caste of nobles who are really the only people who matter in history because they get reborn again and again?

And how do you figure the Greek Titan to be the most crucial bit of evidence? In the viewpoint, Rand is her father. In the myths, Zeus is her youngest son - and also does not get erased from history.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 19 April 2010 - 08:56 PM
Reason for edit: Text attacking other peoples' fan preferences deleted. Be nice.

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#3 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 05:53 AM

View Postamphibian, on 19 April 2010 - 05:48 AM, said:

View PostTerez, on 19 April 2010 - 02:18 AM, said:

So.....apparently, both of Rand's parents - and Elayne, and all the other Andoran nobles - are descended directly from Adan, father of Rhea. Just thought I would share. Posted Image

So your point is that Jordan has a highly stratified caste of nobles who are really the only people who matter in history because they get reborn again and again?

No? Not sure where you got that from.

amphibian said:

And how do you figure the Greek Titan to be the most crucial bit of evidence? In the viewpoint, Rand is her father.

wat?

amphibian said:

In the myths, Zeus is her youngest son - and also does not get erased from history.

Not sure what your point is. The parallels are never exact; they're always twisted in some way. But the suspicion about Rhea being the mother of the Andoran royal line was there before I looked up the name Rhea to see if it was connected to anything important. The fact that she was the mother of the gods along with the lions made it clear that I was right.

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#4 User is offline   Sindriss 

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 07:21 AM

There is no need to be rude Amph, does it matter much whether you spend your time developing Malazan or WoT theories? If someone have fun working with their brain to try and pierce the layers in a book, it sounds fine to me.

@topic: Certainly seems believable, but I am nowhere near enough wot fan to be able to judge it :D

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#5 User is offline   globish rip 

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 07:15 PM

hey terez do you ever think about trying to write/think about wheel of time in a different context? like im crazy impressed with the depth of your knowledge but its weird to me that no1 obsessed with the series ever tries writing about it in a more "critical" or "academic" way - trying to make better sense of its themes its relation to genre & its effect on the reader.

like its just... not just you but a bunch of other ppl on the internet clearly have a tremendous knowledge of the series on a granular level but there isn't a lot of writing on how or why the novels work the way they do i.e. what makes the incredibly detailed plotting and world-building of wot successful & why that matters?
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#6 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 07:36 PM

View Posteng lng rip, on 19 April 2010 - 07:15 PM, said:

hey terez do you ever think about trying to write/think about wheel of time in a different context? like im crazy impressed with the depth of your knowledge but its weird to me that no1 obsessed with the series ever tries writing about it in a more "critical" or "academic" way - trying to make better sense of its themes its relation to genre & its effect on the reader.

like its just... not just you but a bunch of other ppl on the internet clearly have a tremendous knowledge of the series on a granular level but there isn't a lot of writing on how or why the novels work the way they do i.e. what makes the incredibly detailed plotting and world-building of wot successful & why that matters?

I would love to write about WoT academically. I'm just not sure how to go about it. I'm pretty sure I could write something and get it published for a serious literary journal, if I knew how to go about it, and what sort of analysis they were interested in. There's another fan who is also very much into the analytical writing for WoT, but she tends to focus on the atomic details, while I tend to focus on the over-arching, plot-important stuff (she would probably say she focuses on both, and that's true, but I feel like sometimes she misses the forest for the trees). This post is actually something that would normally be more up Linda's alley, but I happened to discover this little tidbit before she did. She's written about Rhea's connections to the three ta'veren before, but only in the real-world Rhea sense....she didn't connect it to the Aiel Rhea.

I'd actually like to write something about the recent explosion of epic fantasy - the 'big three' plus Tairy - and submit that to a scholarly journal. But I feel like I need to seriously brush up on Erikson and GRRM to pull that off, and I'm not sure I've got the time. I think there are a lot of really logical reasons why the fandoms are so generally insular. 'We love this guy, and this guy is alright, but this guy sucks.' Wert might be a good one to tackle that project.

This post has been edited by Terez: 19 April 2010 - 07:40 PM

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#7 User is offline   globish rip 

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 08:04 PM

I would love to write about WoT academically. I'm just not sure how to go about it.

yah i really dont know - i know at my school there are ppl that do genre work and im sure they have their own journals but i have never read them. i also think they are (probably?) a lot more engaged with theory than cultural discussions. but im really just guessing. i have a half finished article on radical politics & the new fantasy that i keep meaning to get into n+1 (web) but if you were really interested in pitching to those kind of pubs youd probably need a hook that wld sell to non-genre fans.

anyway this is really o/t but the density of the allusions embedded in wot reminded me of like foster-wallace or w/e and the contrast btw the way ppl are writing about the two of them is "interesting", i guess. like even in the blog u linked a lot of the analysis seems deeply interested in the what its sort of catalouging impluse. whereas a lot of i guess "critical" writing is essentially explicating
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#8 User is offline   alt146 

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 08:13 PM

Maybe talk to Ribald? I think he's somewhere near doctorate level with a degree in literature, I'm sure he could at least point you in the right direction?
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#9 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 08:21 PM

I don't know Ribald. Does he only post in book discussion?

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 04:38 AM

You can pretty much publish whatever you want as long as you find the right academic journal for it. One of my communications professors used to write and present papers to the communications field on professional wrestling.
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#11 User is offline   caladanbrood 

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 08:31 AM

I like the convincingness of your theory (apparently, that's a real word. Awesome), but I have to admit being a little disappointed if RJ copied quite so blatantly from Greek myths.
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#12 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 10:49 AM

Are you serious? First of all, it's hardly the first thing he's 'copied' from the myths; there are hundreds of parallels to real-world mythology in the series. I guess you haven't read anything about them before? Second, he hasn't simply copied the myths; he's only made references to them. All of the details have been changed around. %5 borrowed, 95% original.

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#13 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 01:06 PM

View Postcaladanbrood, on 20 April 2010 - 08:31 AM, said:

I like the convincingness of your theory (apparently, that's a real word. Awesome), but I have to admit being a little disappointed if RJ copied quite so blatantly from Greek myths.

Even the Rude Frog Who Has Expressed Being Nonplussed About This Topic said "Blatant? It wasn't blatant - he changed around half the stuff and buried most of it."
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#14 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 01:13 PM

Indeed. If it was blatant, you'd think someone would have picked up on it before 18 years had passed. :D Especially seeing as how the fandom is obsessed with this sort of thing.

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#15 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 06:15 PM

I asked Harriet and Brandon about this at JordanCon. Here's what I posted on Theoryland:

Terez said:

I got a lovely smile from Harriet that told me she was pleased that someone had finally figured that out, and she said that she believes I am exactly right about that. She was a little sketchy on the details, though, and so was Brandon, so Brandon said it was essentially a MAFO [Maria (Simons - RJ's longtime assistant) And Find Out]. So I talked to Maria after that session, and she was taking a break so I didn't want to ask her about it just then, so I asked her if I could message her about it, and the other MAFO we got today, and she said yes, so I will hopefully be hearing more about that soon. Brandon asked me not to put that one in the interview database until I hear from Maria about it.

Maria wrote me this morning and said she will be getting back to me in a few days.

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#16 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 06:28 PM

If you thought that was blatant, then telling you Mat = Odin is going to blow your mind.
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#17 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 06:32 PM

LOL, Rand also has some Odin parallels.

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 06:58 PM

View PostTerez, on 27 April 2010 - 06:32 PM, said:

LOL, Rand also has some Odin parallels.


He does? I know RJ pretty much blugeoned us with the Tyr parallels, but I didn't really pick up on any Odin ones. I'm more of a casual fan, so I might have missed them. Could you give me some ballpark examples please? No need to go into an exact quote and page count, I'll believe you if say it is there. :D

I liked your theory on the background of Andor. Very cool stuff.
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#19 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:10 PM

Thanks. I'll just hit the most obvious Odin parallels:

1. Mat was hung on the Tree of Life, suspended by his ashandarei with the ravens on it across his shoulders. It had an inscription on it: 'Thus it our treaty written; thus is agreement made./Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades./What was asked is given. The price is paid.' Mat hung there for several days. Odin was hung from the World Tree for several days, pierced by his own spear. He hung there for knowledge, ostensibly (the reason Mat gave for his own hanging). Odin has two ravens, named thought and memory, that are said to perch on his shoulders. Of course, Egwene has a dream after that about Mat getting raven tattoos on his shoulders, which would mark him as property of the Empress (his wife), so that parallel could be extended further.

2. All the clues in the books point to Mat losing an eye at the Tower of Ghenjei to save Moiraine (without whom Rand will surely fail). One prophecy to point to that is the Aelfinn's "give up half the light of the world to save the world", but Min also sees him with his eye on a balance scale, and Egwene sees him with his hat pulled low over his eyes and blood streaming down his face. Odin did that too, though of course the details are slightly different.

3. Mat's hat. Odin had a wide-brimmed hat that he pulled down over his missing eye.

There are probably more I can't think of right now, but those are the blatant ones.

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#20 User is offline   acesn8s 

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 08:37 PM

View PostTerez, on 30 April 2010 - 07:10 PM, said:

Thanks. I'll just hit the most obvious Odin parallels:

1. Mat was hung on the Tree of Life, suspended by his ashandarei with the ravens on it across his shoulders. It had an inscription on it: 'Thus it our treaty written; thus is agreement made./Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades./What was asked is given. The price is paid.' Mat hung there for several days. Odin was hung from the World Tree for several days, pierced by his own spear. He hung there for knowledge, ostensibly (the reason Mat gave for his own hanging). Odin has two ravens, named thought and memory, that are said to perch on his shoulders. Of course, Egwene has a dream after that about Mat getting raven tattoos on his shoulders, which would mark him as property of the Empress (his wife), so that parallel could be extended further.

2. All the clues in the books point to Mat losing an eye at the Tower of Ghenjei to save Moiraine (without whom Rand will surely fail). One prophecy to point to that is the Aelfinn's "give up half the light of the world to save the world", but Min also sees him with his eye on a balance scale, and Egwene sees him with his hat pulled low over his eyes and blood streaming down his face. Odin did that too, though of course the details are slightly different.

3. Mat's hat. Odin had a wide-brimmed hat that he pulled down over his missing eye.

There are probably more I can't think of right now, but those are the blatant ones.


That's all Mat, you had mentioned Rand having Odin parallels in your post. That's what got me confused, I picked up on the Mat/Odin parallels and the Rand/Tyr parallels.
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