[dktorode]

OR the MODS CF'ng lioson before he was dead... that had nothing to do with our demise either....heh?

[Shinrei]

Morgy's rant = the sound of one hand clapping



I wonder when I'll have my first genuine mafia rant...

[dktorode]

well...i agree with morgy... ill clap his one hand with my one hand...make a little noise at least

This post has been edited by dktorode: 30 April 2010 - 10:53 AM

[Shinrei]

No worries dk - you're one of my mafia heroes.

I just gotta give the lutefisk snifter grief wherever I can.

[Jump Around]

I should say that, in my dictionnary, the definition of unbalanced game is having the scum team composed of those players and them not winning

That said, thank you mods, that was still fun - at least for me, since I spent my whole short game going WTF?. There's an alarming rate of modkills in the last two games since I came back, though.

[dktorode]

Shinrei, on 30 April 2010 - 11:55 AM, said:

No worries dk - you're one of my mafia heroes.

I just gotta give the lutefisk snifter grief wherever I can.

haha for sure... if only i wasnt a symp id probably take the opportunity myself to rub in the salt.

[dktorode]

Jump Around, on 30 April 2010 - 12:23 PM, said:

I should say that, in my dictionnary, the definition of unbalanced game is having the scum team composed of those players and them not winning

that would just be plain old unlucky

[Edrigan]

Yay, thank you all for giving me the opportunity to participate in this

I had a lot of fun, and it helped me greatly, providing both distraction and amusement/entertainment during the first week , as post surgery pains kicked in and made it a royal PITA to even get any sleep what so ever.

Sorry if my initial posts were boarderline 'acceptable' , I was kinda overwhelmed with the 'lynch the new guy' thought, so I had to make it my first goal to survive the first couple days!

Almost messed it up right in the end though...

*voice in my head* Follow the prooooooooooo's
-Shut up
*voice in my head* You will screw it uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
-Go away, let me think
*voice in my head* Follow the pro's, there Hood's Path voted Galain, assist him you miserable failure of a totally perfect and healthy sperm!
[smack head]
~quiet~
-Ok, time to re-read some stuff...


Summarise:

~I had fun!! *check*
~I got to survive the first days (even by those means)! *check*
~I (hopefully) provided entertainment and proved more of a help than a nuisence! *your decision*
~I was part of the team that won, in my first game, yay TEAM!!! *check*


Ummmmmmm... numbers aside..
I'd like to stick around and play more, if you don't mind.
Please.

[Morgoth]

D, on 30 April 2010 - 02:23 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 30 April 2010 - 01:09 AM, said:

D, on 28 April 2010 - 10:28 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 28 April 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

Morgoth has some pretty harsh words about the setup. I definitely agreed with him that the game seems way too focused around these town power roles. If they survive a few days, they provide insane information to the town.

Anyway, I told him I'd forward it along, so here it is.

Korbas, on 28 April 2010 - 09:10 PM, said:

You know what. I've pretty much lost all interest in this game. To even pretend that this was supposed to be a M&P game is fucking nuts.

M&P is about skill. Unlike the high complexity games we do, a M&P game is aimed at people winning through skill, not the luck of the draw. As such there needs to be some resemblance of balance. This game is not a M&P game, it's a fucking joke.

A balanced 21 player M&P game could have been say 3 killers and a symp vs A guard, a healer and a BP or a vig. Alternatively, 2 killers and 3 symps vs A healer and a finder could've worked. Or the 2 killers and 3 symps knowing only one master each vs a guard a healer and a bp or vig. All of these would've been fairly well balanced I think, though the last slightly in favour of the innos, but not too much so in my opinion.

Instead we get this crap.

Two killers who can be paralyzed by a single guard. The game had a 10% chance of being won by the innos at the start of day 2 for christ sake. The fact that Eloth was the only one who realised that Spite should not have been lynched does not change that. How anyone could've seen that mechanic and not immediately realise it was broken is beyond me. It alone turned the balance so far in favour of the innos it bordered on the absurd.

Yet that was not enough. The game was built so as to make fake reveals fucking impossible. The CF tells us whether the person dead was one of the two inno roles! And if that was not enough, it also shows whether a player was a symp or an inno. Sure there were another general and commandant or two, but whenever a player came up as something other we knew that player had been a RI. How the hell is that even remotely balanced?

You would think these things would make a person think twice, but instead, next to the super healer/guard we get a symp-finder! What the fuck! Was this whole thing just an exercise in how to make Morgoth waste two fucking weeks of his time?

The whole point of a symp is that they're supposed to be indistinguishable from innos outside of their actions in-game. It was completely irrelevant that the symps Gavin and I got are excellent players when their role had been turned into some kind of joke.

I'm pretty damned patient with high complexity games that turn out to be very unbalanced because I go to these games for the fun of trying something new. I want M&P games in between because they're what mafia is actually about and they're incredibly easy to balance. How this travesty of a game came to be is beyond me, but man I have not been this pissed in ages.

I know he's being deliberately angry in true Morgy faction, but nevertheless - every supposed advantage for town that he's complaining about is also advantageous for scum. Yeah, the 2 inno role names are known, but that means that if the scum had killed them they would then know those roles were dead. The healer/guard combo means that person can't know right away that they guarded correctly, rather than healed the victim. And he'd rather have a regular finder so that both town roles can catch the killers?

Yes, it all comes down to luck - the scum have to be lucky enough to kill the guard before he finds them, but that's always the case in any game with a killer and a guard. Always. To imagine that luck is not a part of mafia is just silly. If the scum is lucky, they get the guard and both of them get to try and avoid lynches for the rest of the game. If the town is lucky they guard the killers, skip a NK and then one killer and the guard die so they go up against the remaining killer with just lynches and detectivetry.

Knowing whether we'd taken out a role is not nearly as advantageous to us as the inability to fake reveal. There's no equivelance here. You're making up a straw man with the finder thing. I generally hold that there shouldn't be finders in CF games, but you already had a super powered finder in Liosan. By adding a second finder that could find symps, and a cf that clears more than half the players as RI, you effectively neutered the symp role. They had no function in this game apart from weighing in votes in the end game.

The whole point about M&P games is that there should be minimal amount of luck involved. Sure the killers can get lucky early, but then a kill should never be random so it's not only a question of luck even on day one. However, the inno roles are but a help to the innos, they're not in any way necessary for the innos to win.

Your super-guard broke the game from the moment he was introduced. All the other stuff just made it worse.

---


I had fun for most parts of this game. When Shin revealed and Tulas CF'ed as a symp it just got too much however. The last few days I just went through the motions feeling that I could've spent times doing something with a point rather than putting hours upon hours into a game that was stacked so heavily in the innos favour it was ridiculous.

So no, this was not just a Morgoth something something rant. I was genuinely pissed off, which makes this the first mafia game to ever make me actually angry.


When that is said, Edrigan played a great game. I had to get him lynched before Galain if I was to have any shot at the game, but he wouldn't have any of it it seemed.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

Not that having your symp give away the master's name before getting modkilled was a leading factor in your demise, or anything.

Entitled to my opinion? This is not just some random opinion, this is fact. Opinions about balance are things like whether an inno vig helps the inno team at all or if it's more advantageous to the killers. Or whether a CF is neutral, benefiting the innos or the killers.

There is no possible way to argue that this game even bordered on an acceptable balance.

A M&P game should be no more about luck than a soccer game. Even when a killer is lynched day 1 (happened once here, twice on westeros as far as I can remember) it was because of legitimate observations about the player's style of play.

A good killer never targets a player on random. They target the players they rank most likely as being roled, alternatively players they suspect will side against them later. Hitting a role then is not a question of luck, it's a question of skill. Sure luck helps, as it does in soccer in regards to which way the goal keeper will throw himself at a penalty kick, but to the extent it is relevant at all it favours the well prepared.

In that same vein, a healer that's night killed is not struck by bad luck. Just as the killers hunt for roled players, roled players must play in a way that makes them poor targets for night kills. The RI on the other hand are meant to play in ways that draw night kills. Look at Shin's play. He never even came up as a good target. He was not lucky to survive until the end game. He was skilled enough to know how to avoid being hit.

A finder will target those he thinks are killers and at some point he'll generally get it right. Will he then reveal? Or hope he's not been noticed and wait until he finds the other?

M&P is not about luck. It's about strategy and skill. The fact that I have to explain this as if it's somehow news goes to show we've done too many high complexity bonanzas lately.


... I really shouldn't let myself get worked up about this, but I think this is important to clarify before the next m&p game.

[Bent]

Just throwing in my 2 cents from phone.

I dont think it was M&P - nevermind the balance issue

2 killers 3 symps, a symp finder gaurdhealer finder thing and a rule change mid game....

TMDI 10 is what I would rate this, based on field testing new roles

M&P are killers vs. standart town with standard roles. Up the TMDI level and balance isnt an issue anymore. In other words, quit whining you Norwegian titty baby and get the signups started for next week, lol

[Morgoth]

Bent, on 30 April 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

Just throwing in my 2 cents from phone.

I dont think it was M&P - nevermind the balance issue

2 killers 3 symps, a symp finder gaurdhealer finder thing and a rule change mid game....

TMDI 10 is what I would rate this, based on field testing new roles

M&P are killers vs. standart town with standard roles. Up the TMDI level and balance isnt an issue anymore. In other words, quit whining you Norwegian titty baby and get the signups started for next week, lol

That's the thing. I took the time to play this game because it was advertised as a M&P game. If I'd been told it wasn't I probably wouldn't have played.

[Bent]

Well then, would anyone like for me to scrounge up a completely M&P game. Break the ice a bit.

I get access back Monday, but I would need an active co-mod as I am still busy. Anyway, just throwing it out there.

[D'rek]

Morgoth, on 30 April 2010 - 03:33 PM, said:

Entitled to my opinion? This is not just some random opinion, this is fact. Opinions about balance are things like whether an inno vig helps the inno team at all or if it's more advantageous to the killers. Or whether a CF is neutral, benefiting the innos or the killers.

[... blahblahwhine I couldn't fake reveal blahblah yes you could blahblah ...]

It is an opinion Morgy. You don't decide what makes a fact and what makes an opinion. Other players did not feel the same way as you - that makes it an opinion. I even wanted to be absolute sure and consulted and experienced player before the game started and they thought it was balanced (or if anything that scum was too strong).

Bent, on 30 April 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

2 killers 3 symps, a symp finder gaurdhealer finder thing and a rule change mid game....

No rules were ever changed in this game.

[Yellow]

Path-Shaper, on 24 April 2010 - 03:24 AM, said:

Korvalain, on 23 April 2010 - 05:22 PM, said:

Quote

The RotK game is a town v scum game, 1 killer w/ symps and only a few other roles.

For god's sake, when will mods remember to put the setup in the actual fucking game thread? You know, the one where the rules are. Where we play the game.

This at least helps to explain why Liosan's guard may have worked. The Gamelon/Liosan thing doesn't seem to mesh at all. If Gamelon actually guarded Liosan then why wasn't there a kill? I refuse to believe that the killers either witheld on night two or that they were so fucking useless they didn't get provisionals in. I'm sure one of them is lying at this point, probably Gamelon... especially since Liosan has that special name.

I'm looking forward to Spite's CF, anyway.

edit - tag fail

Oh get off your ass of pomposity. Maybe it's not in the game thread for a reason.

You know what? A bit of consistency would be nice. You post the setup in the signup thread (1 killer w/ symps), which actually isn't the setup at all, which is a mistake at best, mis-information at worst. Then you change the rules mid-game. It made no difference from what I can tell, but it could have been game-breaking. M&P my arse.

[Yellow]

D, on 30 April 2010 - 04:02 PM, said:

No rules were ever changed in this game.

So there was no change about whether the other killer could kill if the first was blocked? Where did that come from?

[Yellow]

Bent, on 30 April 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

Well then, would anyone like for me to scrounge up a completely M&P game. Break the ice a bit.

Yeah, that would be cool.

[Morgoth]

I'm definitely up for that.

[D'rek]

Yellow, on 30 April 2010 - 04:21 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 24 April 2010 - 03:24 AM, said:

Korvalain, on 23 April 2010 - 05:22 PM, said:

Quote

The RotK game is a town v scum game, 1 killer w/ symps and only a few other roles.

For god's sake, when will mods remember to put the setup in the actual fucking game thread? You know, the one where the rules are. Where we play the game.

This at least helps to explain why Liosan's guard may have worked. The Gamelon/Liosan thing doesn't seem to mesh at all. If Gamelon actually guarded Liosan then why wasn't there a kill? I refuse to believe that the killers either witheld on night two or that they were so fucking useless they didn't get provisionals in. I'm sure one of them is lying at this point, probably Gamelon... especially since Liosan has that special name.

I'm looking forward to Spite's CF, anyway.

edit - tag fail

Oh get off your ass of pomposity. Maybe it's not in the game thread for a reason.

You know what? A bit of consistency would be nice. You post the setup in the signup thread (1 killer w/ symps), which actually isn't the setup at all, which is a mistake at best, mis-information at worst. Then you change the rules mid-game. It made no difference from what I can tell, but it could have been game-breaking. M&P my arse.

Yeah, the signup thread may have had something else - because when I wrote that THERE WERE FOUR FUCKING PEOPLE SIGNED UP. Use your goddamn brain and realize that "Hey, that was written when there was no way to know the size of the game and there's been far less than 21 people in most games recently. And gee golly whiz, 1 killer for 21 players is weird, I guess things must have changed and I can't really go with the sign-up thread because that's the FUCKING SIGNUP THREAD NOT THE FUCKING GAME THREAD."

[Peanutbutta]

Whatever new game is going to go up, you should probably make sure alt146 is OK with it. We did have like 4 modkills for players that couldn't really play, so really only like 16-17 played this one and the game is balanced around 20 players.

And under no circumstances is anyone to make a game that would interfere with Tapper's schedule! May 17th!

[Jump Around]

I suggest that, in some of the resource thread (pointers or FAQ), we put a standard "Setup" post for a M&P game, which should be used (as in copy/pasted as is) for every game that is labeled M&P. It would describe the possible roles and the mechanics.

The same way we have a standard "Rules" post, which I am happy to see if back in our games.