[dktorode]

This aint Meat & Potatoes.

More like Soy Patties & Smash

[Obdigore]

Oh whine wine whine.

The only reason you guys are bitching is because 1 guard was able to neuter duo-killers, and I guessed right on night 2. Pure skill (luck) on my part neutered your team and killed Spite who was nigh lynch-proof at that time in the game.

Other than the 2girls1guard thing, it seems rather balanced. Especially since there were both innos and symps with 'General' and w/e titles.

@D'rek - other than the 2killers1guard, it was an extremely balanced game. One suggestion I have was to make my role have 2 night actions, 1 heal, 1 guard, both able to be used each night, at the same time, but not on the same target. OR possibly 2 heal/guards that would mean my role would need to nail BOTH killers to prevent the kill? Meh that role needs a little tinkering so that it would still be useful throughout the game, but not as strong at the beginning as it was. PS - HEALING CATAPULTS!

[dktorode]

Obdigore, on 29 April 2010 - 02:25 PM, said:

Oh whine wine whine.

The only reason you guys are bitching is because 1 guard was able to neuter duo-killers, and I guessed right on night 2. Pure skill (luck) on my part neutered your team and killed Spite who was nigh lynch-proof at that time in the game.

In a game with 21 fuckign people how can you justify having this mechanic in the game?
Your a fucking Guard/finder AND a healer!!!

Obdigore, on 29 April 2010 - 02:25 PM, said:

Other than the 2girls1guard thing, it seems rather balanced. Especially since there were both innos and symps with 'General' and w/e titles.

@ killers one guard thing is a HUGE thing... so "other than that"...yea watever.
Secondly...Some people did NOT have have titles that are "general" etc ...proving them not to be symps upon cf...which defeats the purpose.
AND you have symp finders?
Next to no chance of fake reveal for symps.
especially when mods are lettin slip someones CF on thread.
Next to no chance of any symp being able to do any real symping because the symp finder will find you and your master rather easily.

Obdigore, on 29 April 2010 - 02:25 PM, said:

@D'rek - other than the 2killers1guard, it was an extremely balanced game. One suggestion I have was to make my role have 2 night actions, 1 heal, 1 guard, both able to be used each night, at the same time, but not on the same target. OR possibly 2 heal/guards that would mean my role would need to nail BOTH killers to prevent the kill? Meh that role needs a little tinkering so that it would still be useful throughout the game, but not as strong at the beginning as it was. PS - HEALING CATAPULTS!

killers should have shared a kill.
Finder should ahve been normal finder.
simple fix

Oh...and names should not have given anything away.

[Path-Shaper]

HD is confused. Chinese history is hard!

Galain, on 29 April 2010 - 06:11 AM, said:

Omtose (Jump Around) is dead. He was Wu Zilan, General of Chariots and Cavalry.

Quote

Wu Shi, styled Zilan (1), was a consultant in Xu City. In AD 199 he joined the with Dong Cheng to conspire against Cao Cao. When Cao Cao discovered the plot in early AD 200 Wu Shi and his family were
executed.

Now... am I a different Wu Shi? Or am I a zombie/ghost? Or is there a Wu Zilan and a Wu Shi?

Don't ask why I'm only figuring this out on D-Day when it happened Night 2. I've been busy.

[Obdigore]

Whine Whine Whine.

You just agreed with most everything I said.

[Path-Shaper]

At 2 votes on Korbas from two players that have "inno cred" I think it's pretty much sealed that town wins this one. Galain will obviously vote Korbas over himself if that's where sentiment currently lies (since he knows a vote on himself is a waste). So really, HP or D'riss can show up and end it whenever.

[The Dude]

Yeah, Morgy is gonna have to jump on quick if he wants a chance to save himself. Though this crowd does like to hold votes because "there is plenty of time left" I don't think they will lynch Korb before he gets a chance to derail. That said, it's either Galain or Korbas and anything Korbas says will likely be seen as making excuses. I think the town have this one.

[Path-Shaper]

Korbas, on 29 April 2010 - 04:32 PM, said:

In addition, I'm Yan Liang, General of the Jade Dragons. I'm a standard RI and have played the game to the best of my ability. The fact that you're lynching me now instead of listening to me is hardly uncommon an occurrence, but it's still annoying as fuck.

Galain, on 29 April 2010 - 04:48 PM, said:

I'm Wu Shi, Imperial Libationer. I have not received information as to whether Omtose's Wu Zilan is the same person as me back from PS. I'm assuming not because of all the Chinese names, but who knows.

D, on 29 April 2010 - 05:10 PM, said:

Defence or not defence, Yan Liang appears as a name in one of the CF scenes, and also appears as a General.
Path-Shaper post #254

Wu Shi, as a name hasn't been mentioned ANYWHERE around the scenes or not.
I don't know which is wifom here and which is not, but Galain man, if you are inno, that reveal doesn't sound convincing.

Wow, you want to talk about a potentially brilliant move from Morgy? He pulls an obscure name from the scene where I am modkilled, used the "famous generals" part and created a fairly believable role out of it!

Path-Shaper, on 20 April 2010 - 05:07 PM, said:

Chong Ji spent the the first afternoon in the Prime Minister's residence perusing the great works of art displayed in the great hall. As the sun began to set, he chose one last painting to view in the fading light. Coincidentally, it was a depiction of a battle he himself had fought in, against the warlord Cao Cao during the conquest of the Eastern heartland. The forefront of the scene showed the famous generals Yan Liang and Wen Chou battling bravely, but on a mountain in the rear was Chong Ji himself kneeling in surrender to Cao Cao's general Xiahou Yuan. As he stared at the scene, the chief steward approached and said, "Ah, you have a good eye for superb artistry, my lord. That painting is one of the Prime Minister's favourites. He said it always reminds him of his brave generals." Stricken with grief, Chong Ji sputtered nonsense to the steward before wresting the steward's dagger and slitting his own throat in shame.

Kessobahn (PB) is modkilled. He was Chong Ji, commandant of the Ru Nan command.

Ed then finds this reference and uses it as a reason to indicate that he may, in fact, be in the game (even though the scene only refers to a painting of the general), and mentions that Galain's name is nowhere in the scenes. He does need to be extremely careful, however, because he's another general, Cen Pi, and I don't believe he has appeared in any scenes yet, either. A general reveal is extremely safe right now because it's mostly confirmed that Gamelon was the General symp.

Should be interesting to see how this plays out!

[Path-Shaper]

Ed's going to try and get tricky with his logic. I don't think it's that good of a move, however. Trying to PI yourself with a line of logic that goes, "If I'm new, why would I get a big role," is EXTREMELY dangerous.

There are plenty of examples where new players with big roles have worked very poorly (think back to "I agree" in Twilight and how disastrous that was for team Edward) and other cases where it has worked very well (Bwgan won her very first game as a member of a small faction in Heroes 2.0, with an impressive performance).

I think this argument may really backfire on him.

D, on 29 April 2010 - 05:30 PM, said:

Hello there, again!

Quick question:

Korbas, on 29 April 2010 - 05:01 PM, said:

You know, back before PB earned himself an honourable Khell, I was arguing that D'riss was making typical scum mistakes. Now, I don't think anyone who's been playing for a little while would be as obvious, but as he seemed a new player it was quite possible that he would.

D'riss was all over the place until he found his sea-legs, so to speak. However, lately I've kind of been wondering what's going on with him. In the end, I know I am innocent and of you lot I only trust HP, and somewhat Eloth. Lynching me only gives us one lynch to get the killer. Lynching you or D'riss gets us two.

I am innocent.
I know that much.

If your gut tells you that I am a new player, then you have to wonder why D'rek would give me one of the two rolled scum characters to play in a 20+ M&P game, without seriously risking balance by having me making the 'typical scum mistakes'.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Is that a meta arguement, or not?

Path-Shaper, on 29 April 2010 - 05:33 PM, said:

It kind of falls into that realm, but it doesn't really seem like any kind of egregious mistake. It's no worse than, say, lying about something that may have happened to you outside of the game in order to try and make up explanations about things like your absences or behavior. (Note: Not that that has been done in this game, but it has been done in the past.)

So you're welcome to use that argument, if you wish. Just don't go and 'admit' to being the new guy.

D, on 29 April 2010 - 05:44 PM, said:

Hmmm, I see.

I will refrain from using that arguement then, until there's nothing else going on.


That probably means I can't come out and say that I google'ed Wu Shi as a name, and also tried to find it in Wikipedia, but I was unable to do so - so by definition his reveal seems scummy....


Or can I? CAN I?!? CAN I?!?! CAN I?!?!! SAY I CAN!!!!!!!!

Path-Shaper, on 29 April 2010 - 05:55 PM, said:

Of course you can do that. Players use Wikipedia and other places to find 'setup' information all the time when they don't know the theme.

D, on 29 April 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

LoL why do I have a gut feeling you're toying with me here

Pretty much most of the names are also names I could find some information , outside these threads.
If Wu Shi is a book character, I wasn't able to find anything to that regard!!!!!


Arggggggggggg, who do I trust here?!

Path-Shaper, on 29 April 2010 - 06:03 PM, said:

I'm not toying with you. I'm an impartial moderator. I'm answering your questions in the most neutral way I can!

D, on 29 April 2010 - 06:13 PM, said:

I couldn't find anything on Yang Dajang as a name either....


There goes my case of trusting D'rek that all names would come up in wikipedia as real names apart from Wu Shi
Could it be 'Yang Dayang' instead of 'Yang Dajang'?

I'm a sad panda

Path-Shaper, on 29 April 2010 - 06:38 PM, said:

Don't be sad, little panda There is Mafia to be played and scum to be found!

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 29 April 2010 - 06:38 PM

[The Dude]

Well, 1 vote away with HP being Dead tonight... I can't believe HP left w/o a vote knowing he is going to die tonight.... if he does come back before the lynch I think that he will vote Korbas... he almost has too as it's 3 Korbas vs. 2 D'riss. Good role ass-puller-out-of by Morgy though... can't believe he got galain to vote for D'riss.

[Path-Shaper]

Well HP's usage in this game is limited at this point. He's found the symps. Everyone knows Alkend and Eloth and HP are the players who won't be lynched, so it really doesn't matter which of them is killed off.

In fact, Eloth is the guy slated to get killed, not HP. Morgy is still trying to operate under the auspices that HP is a symp, even though he knows that's highly unlikely. It's fairly safe to leave him alive, especially if you think he's more likely to vote with you than, say, Alkend or Eloth.

But really, it's going to be a hard sell for Morgoth to win. He's got to convince several people that D'riss is worthy of a vote. I think Ed got him with the logic that he changed his case too easily today.

[Path-Shaper]

The fact that there's only one hour left may be a tough one, too.

I think ultimately, though, that whoever Shin votes will get lynched. If he votes D'riss, someone will change their vote.

[Path-Shaper]

Wow!

Hood, on 29 April 2010 - 10:22 PM, said:

Ok, I'm in my morning rush to get to work. This is going to be one post and I'll be back in less than an hour.

I don't think I"m going to vote Korbas. If he's the killer, he made a sweet move back when he was the 4th vote for Spite, when there was still time for reasonable doubting of the reveals. Scum will add to a train of scum for distancing, but his voting seemed legit. And he's not rubbing it in our face - "I can't be scum, I voted for Spite" would be a fair defence.

D'riss added later, and then was the first to really attack Gamelon as a symp. He waited for Spite and then attacked specific things in Spite's defense post.

Galain avoided the vote. He begged off saying there was plenty of time (which to me would seem to mean he would come back later and vote). Well, he didn't come back and vote, and even called Lio's reveal into question and posted 3 speculations about how the killers might work - none of which turned out to be the case.

It doesn't hurt to add at this point that I don't know if Alkend is a symp or not. I have not done a search on him. His quick and rather flimsy vote on Korbas could be an attempt by the remaining symp to start a train on one of the two players everyone was mentioning. Galain/vs/Korbas, and he votes Korbas early and disappears. This is perhaps a stretch, it would be rough if there is a symp left.

It may be too late to switch, but based on Spite's train I think Galain is more likely the killer.

Vote Galain

Shin drops a vote on Galain, who currently has zero votes?! They may not get a lynch at that rate... although town can afford a no lynch today (5 tomorrow is still 2 lynches to go), but since it's pretty much between 3 players anyway (D'riss, Korbas, Galain), it really don't affect the clock any. It just allows Morgy to remove a pesky flea.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 29 April 2010 - 10:26 PM

[Path-Shaper]

This could still end disastrously for Korbas because if Galain shows up quickly here, he knows he's inno and will probably just hammer Korbas, since he is pretty confident the scum is either D'riss or Korbas. No sense letting them lynch him, he probably would think, if Korbas is a valid target today and HP isn't going to jump on board.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 29 April 2010 - 10:29 PM

[The Dude]

Wow... shin really dropped the ball there... he is dead tonight, he has to know that, and he basically wasted his vote. I mean.. there's only an hr left! Only hope is that Galain comes back on and hammers... but I doubt he will. And then Korbas can choos between D'riss and Galain tomorrow.

So tomorrow assuming no lynch: Korbas, Galain, D'riss, Alkend, Eloth.

So no lynch isn't necessarily a bad thing. Likely if they don't lynch Korbas, they'll get galain. He'll NK Eloth leaving a Finals match of Korbas, Alkend, and D'riss. At that point I'll have to root for Ment... dammit, I hate doing that!!

This post has been edited by The Dude: 29 April 2010 - 10:43 PM

[Path-Shaper]

Korbas is already set to kill Eloth tonight.

[Path-Shaper]

Haha, wow, Galain and D'riss both offering themselves to the lynch... surely they realize by now that it's neither one of them.

[Path-Shaper]

Oh man, game over. Shin shows up and switches to Korbas.

[Morgoth]

D, on 28 April 2010 - 10:28 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 28 April 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

Morgoth has some pretty harsh words about the setup. I definitely agreed with him that the game seems way too focused around these town power roles. If they survive a few days, they provide insane information to the town.

Anyway, I told him I'd forward it along, so here it is.

Korbas, on 28 April 2010 - 09:10 PM, said:

You know what. I've pretty much lost all interest in this game. To even pretend that this was supposed to be a M&P game is fucking nuts.

M&P is about skill. Unlike the high complexity games we do, a M&P game is aimed at people winning through skill, not the luck of the draw. As such there needs to be some resemblance of balance. This game is not a M&P game, it's a fucking joke.

A balanced 21 player M&P game could have been say 3 killers and a symp vs A guard, a healer and a BP or a vig. Alternatively, 2 killers and 3 symps vs A healer and a finder could've worked. Or the 2 killers and 3 symps knowing only one master each vs a guard a healer and a bp or vig. All of these would've been fairly well balanced I think, though the last slightly in favour of the innos, but not too much so in my opinion.

Instead we get this crap.

Two killers who can be paralyzed by a single guard. The game had a 10% chance of being won by the innos at the start of day 2 for christ sake. The fact that Eloth was the only one who realised that Spite should not have been lynched does not change that. How anyone could've seen that mechanic and not immediately realise it was broken is beyond me. It alone turned the balance so far in favour of the innos it bordered on the absurd.

Yet that was not enough. The game was built so as to make fake reveals fucking impossible. The CF tells us whether the person dead was one of the two inno roles! And if that was not enough, it also shows whether a player was a symp or an inno. Sure there were another general and commandant or two, but whenever a player came up as something other we knew that player had been a RI. How the hell is that even remotely balanced?

You would think these things would make a person think twice, but instead, next to the super healer/guard we get a symp-finder! What the fuck! Was this whole thing just an exercise in how to make Morgoth waste two fucking weeks of his time?

The whole point of a symp is that they're supposed to be indistinguishable from innos outside of their actions in-game. It was completely irrelevant that the symps Gavin and I got are excellent players when their role had been turned into some kind of joke.

I'm pretty damned patient with high complexity games that turn out to be very unbalanced because I go to these games for the fun of trying something new. I want M&P games in between because they're what mafia is actually about and they're incredibly easy to balance. How this travesty of a game came to be is beyond me, but man I have not been this pissed in ages.

I know he's being deliberately angry in true Morgy faction, but nevertheless - every supposed advantage for town that he's complaining about is also advantageous for scum. Yeah, the 2 inno role names are known, but that means that if the scum had killed them they would then know those roles were dead. The healer/guard combo means that person can't know right away that they guarded correctly, rather than healed the victim. And he'd rather have a regular finder so that both town roles can catch the killers?

Yes, it all comes down to luck - the scum have to be lucky enough to kill the guard before he finds them, but that's always the case in any game with a killer and a guard. Always. To imagine that luck is not a part of mafia is just silly. If the scum is lucky, they get the guard and both of them get to try and avoid lynches for the rest of the game. If the town is lucky they guard the killers, skip a NK and then one killer and the guard die so they go up against the remaining killer with just lynches and detectivetry.

Knowing whether we'd taken out a role is not nearly as advantageous to us as the inability to fake reveal. There's no equivelance here. You're making up a straw man with the finder thing. I generally hold that there shouldn't be finders in CF games, but you already had a super powered finder in Liosan. By adding a second finder that could find symps, and a cf that clears more than half the players as RI, you effectively neutered the symp role. They had no function in this game apart from weighing in votes in the end game.

The whole point about M&P games is that there should be minimal amount of luck involved. Sure the killers can get lucky early, but then a kill should never be random so it's not only a question of luck even on day one. However, the inno roles are but a help to the innos, they're not in any way necessary for the innos to win.

Your super-guard broke the game from the moment he was introduced. All the other stuff just made it worse.

---


I had fun for most parts of this game. When Shin revealed and Tulas CF'ed as a symp it just got too much however. The last few days I just went through the motions feeling that I could've spent times doing something with a point rather than putting hours upon hours into a game that was stacked so heavily in the innos favour it was ridiculous.

So no, this was not just a Morgoth something something rant. I was genuinely pissed off, which makes this the first mafia game to ever make me actually angry.


When that is said, Edrigan played a great game. I had to get him lynched before Galain if I was to have any shot at the game, but he wouldn't have any of it it seemed.

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 30 April 2010 - 01:11 AM

[D'rek]

Morgoth, on 30 April 2010 - 01:09 AM, said:

D, on 28 April 2010 - 10:28 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 28 April 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

Morgoth has some pretty harsh words about the setup. I definitely agreed with him that the game seems way too focused around these town power roles. If they survive a few days, they provide insane information to the town.

Anyway, I told him I'd forward it along, so here it is.

Korbas, on 28 April 2010 - 09:10 PM, said:

You know what. I've pretty much lost all interest in this game. To even pretend that this was supposed to be a M&P game is fucking nuts.

M&P is about skill. Unlike the high complexity games we do, a M&P game is aimed at people winning through skill, not the luck of the draw. As such there needs to be some resemblance of balance. This game is not a M&P game, it's a fucking joke.

A balanced 21 player M&P game could have been say 3 killers and a symp vs A guard, a healer and a BP or a vig. Alternatively, 2 killers and 3 symps vs A healer and a finder could've worked. Or the 2 killers and 3 symps knowing only one master each vs a guard a healer and a bp or vig. All of these would've been fairly well balanced I think, though the last slightly in favour of the innos, but not too much so in my opinion.

Instead we get this crap.

Two killers who can be paralyzed by a single guard. The game had a 10% chance of being won by the innos at the start of day 2 for christ sake. The fact that Eloth was the only one who realised that Spite should not have been lynched does not change that. How anyone could've seen that mechanic and not immediately realise it was broken is beyond me. It alone turned the balance so far in favour of the innos it bordered on the absurd.

Yet that was not enough. The game was built so as to make fake reveals fucking impossible. The CF tells us whether the person dead was one of the two inno roles! And if that was not enough, it also shows whether a player was a symp or an inno. Sure there were another general and commandant or two, but whenever a player came up as something other we knew that player had been a RI. How the hell is that even remotely balanced?

You would think these things would make a person think twice, but instead, next to the super healer/guard we get a symp-finder! What the fuck! Was this whole thing just an exercise in how to make Morgoth waste two fucking weeks of his time?

The whole point of a symp is that they're supposed to be indistinguishable from innos outside of their actions in-game. It was completely irrelevant that the symps Gavin and I got are excellent players when their role had been turned into some kind of joke.

I'm pretty damned patient with high complexity games that turn out to be very unbalanced because I go to these games for the fun of trying something new. I want M&P games in between because they're what mafia is actually about and they're incredibly easy to balance. How this travesty of a game came to be is beyond me, but man I have not been this pissed in ages.

I know he's being deliberately angry in true Morgy faction, but nevertheless - every supposed advantage for town that he's complaining about is also advantageous for scum. Yeah, the 2 inno role names are known, but that means that if the scum had killed them they would then know those roles were dead. The healer/guard combo means that person can't know right away that they guarded correctly, rather than healed the victim. And he'd rather have a regular finder so that both town roles can catch the killers?

Yes, it all comes down to luck - the scum have to be lucky enough to kill the guard before he finds them, but that's always the case in any game with a killer and a guard. Always. To imagine that luck is not a part of mafia is just silly. If the scum is lucky, they get the guard and both of them get to try and avoid lynches for the rest of the game. If the town is lucky they guard the killers, skip a NK and then one killer and the guard die so they go up against the remaining killer with just lynches and detectivetry.

Knowing whether we'd taken out a role is not nearly as advantageous to us as the inability to fake reveal. There's no equivelance here. You're making up a straw man with the finder thing. I generally hold that there shouldn't be finders in CF games, but you already had a super powered finder in Liosan. By adding a second finder that could find symps, and a cf that clears more than half the players as RI, you effectively neutered the symp role. They had no function in this game apart from weighing in votes in the end game.

The whole point about M&P games is that there should be minimal amount of luck involved. Sure the killers can get lucky early, but then a kill should never be random so it's not only a question of luck even on day one. However, the inno roles are but a help to the innos, they're not in any way necessary for the innos to win.

Your super-guard broke the game from the moment he was introduced. All the other stuff just made it worse.

---


I had fun for most parts of this game. When Shin revealed and Tulas CF'ed as a symp it just got too much however. The last few days I just went through the motions feeling that I could've spent times doing something with a point rather than putting hours upon hours into a game that was stacked so heavily in the innos favour it was ridiculous.

So no, this was not just a Morgoth something something rant. I was genuinely pissed off, which makes this the first mafia game to ever make me actually angry.


When that is said, Edrigan played a great game. I had to get him lynched before Galain if I was to have any shot at the game, but he wouldn't have any of it it seemed.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

Not that having your symp give away the master's name before getting modkilled was a leading factor in your demise, or anything.