[Path-Shaper]

This is an extremely poor choice by The Dude.

Sorrit, on 28 April 2010 - 05:26 PM, said:

remove vote

Vote Tulas Shorn

barring a counter reveal, we are basically exchanging a symp for our remaining roled player. BUT this menas that we at least get to make the scum kill us all for a win and the majority. I'll take that tradde.

I would have liked you to hold your reveal for one more night. You were under lynch pressure, so not a likely NK... but oh well. pandora's box is opened and what can we do... that being said...

while you are still around I wonder if it wouldn't be better to look for the killer. With Tulas' vote today I would be insanely surprised if Eloth is the last scum. That makes Me, Eloth and HP VPI in my book right now. ( this is all barring a counter reveal, if that happens, I'll have to reevaluate) leaving the Killer in the Galain/Korbas/D'riss/Alkend group.

Since we now know Korbas isn't a symp, his attacks on Alkend make more sense. I am leaning towards Korbas being the remaining Killer, maybe Alkend. Imo we should save Tulas for tomorrow while we still have HP and try for the Killer today when we have more known inno's. Thoughts on that idea?

In this case, you're basically saying you want to try to lynch the killer (approximately 1-in-3 odds), and are willing to risk losing the game for it, if the third symp is still alive (Killer + Tulas + Symp). Even though in this case that's NOT the case, tomorrow they are REQUIRED to lynch off Tulas if they screwed up today, so they are in the same boat.

In other words, mathematically speaking, there's zero reason to not lynch Tulas today. It definitively prolongs the game and you could potentially lose the game if you get it wrong.

[Path-Shaper]

What is GK even saying? I swear, that guy can sound scummy any given day of the week.

Eloth, on 28 April 2010 - 05:31 PM, said:

Damn Korv was symp

Korv was an "Official" and it's pretty well established that there are no symps in the "Official" ranks, based upon the set up.

[Path-Shaper]

We now have a VERY interesting situation. Korbas can drop a LOAD of WIFOM onto Galain by electing to kill someone instead of HP tonight. He probably realizes his symps are all gone at this point.

If he takes out someone like Eloth or Alkend (players that are getting PId right now), then it may look like Galain didn't get on in time to change his action. Players will probably see it as WIFOM, but it's a solid move since it looks like the 'end game' players are going to involve some combination Korbas, D'riss, Galain, and Eloth and Alkend (in other words, you can avoid the HP kiil today since you have to kill at least two of HP and Eloth/Alkend at some point to win).

Will the players bite? Hard to say.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 28 April 2010 - 05:45 PM

[Path-Shaper]

Also, early prediction, but if this were go to down to a final day, I think you have D'riss, Korbas, Eloth, and Sorrit, which is 50/50 (although D'riss may PI himself by revealing his role name since he's a General).

Alkend killed tonight. Galain lynched tomorrow, HP killed tomorrow night.

Lots of WIFOM on Sorrit's 'reveal' may keep him dodgy. D'riss is suspicious. Korbas is suspicious. I think Eloth is the key vote in this scenario, as he's the most PI.

[Path-Shaper]

Ah, Morgy took too long. HD is now here and is going to use his role name to try and clear himself. Funny thing is that he's not the only person with a unique role name. Keep in mind the main killer had a unique name, the killer's assistant has a name shared with RIs, including one still alive in this game!

And arguing against the reveal could be dangerous.

[Path-Shaper]

I also think Morgy needs to change his kill order. D'riss is absolutely the worst choice right now, next to Galain. Those are two players highly suspected of being the killer... of course, he could be going for a WIFOM argument, but I think there's too much information against him in impending reveals to try and out muscle the players for the win.

[Path-Shaper]

Well, it's set in stone pretty much.

Korbas, on 28 April 2010 - 05:54 PM, said:

humh.. now this is getting pretty bad. Is HP telling the truth? If so this is just getting stupid. A symp finder? Really? Not only are symps semi-recognizable in the CF, they can also be found now?

I'll hope his my symp as anything else will just be too absurd.

D'riss confirmed btb.

Might be Sorrit would've been a better target, but I think d'riss' death will sow more confusion.

I still COMPLETELY disagree with this move. Everyone knows the roled inno is still in the game. The only person available to counter reveal is Alkend. This is a borderline catastrophe on Korbas's part.

[Path-Shaper]

Well nevermind. A solid pick, Sorrit is too hard to lynch.

Korbas, on 28 April 2010 - 06:03 PM, said:

I changed my mind. Kill Sorrit

Korbas, on 28 April 2010 - 06:36 PM, said:

In a way, I should hammer and have Alkend killed, but that would be to protect HP who may or may not be a symp. If he is a symp finder I'm giving myself the moral victory in this game as it was from the very beginning fucking impossible for me to win. If HP is my symp I applaud his fake-reveal but have to wonder why the other rolled inno never revealed.

This btb is why you should never give roles in the CF outside of killer and inno.

GK seems to think he had it in iron.

Eloth, on 28 April 2010 - 07:25 PM, said:

I came up with a game winning plan and I didn't push for it as much as I should.

We would have won 100% if we went through with it.

Eloth, on 28 April 2010 - 07:27 PM, said:

God I hate myself, that plan was worthy of man of the match and I let myself get talked out of it.

Eloth, on 28 April 2010 - 07:33 PM, said:

Keep spite alive and guard him, use HP to search for the symps and lynch them, when everyone is clean of being a symp we go to normal lynching.

If the two main scum are still alive when we get down to 5 men lynch spite. 3 against the one killer. Only two players unknowns Liosan says he guarding one of them.

Now for scum to win he would have to hold his kill and make liosan think he struck gold.

The counter is not to lynch the second there a kill the killer is fucked. Team inno would win at worst it a draw due to it not being concluded but in that case better than a loss.

Eloth, on 28 April 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:

If I'm correct. I'm going to kick myself.

As a player I hate playing by skin of the teeth. I like game plans, when i'm inno I try to think of ways based on what happened that can maximise team inno ability to play and win.

But the problem is that is based on having information.

In that predator game I had the info I needed.

This game there was some assumptions made but I saw an opportunity. And I should have pushed it harder.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 28 April 2010 - 07:57 PM

[Sorrit]

Ha!! good pick by Korbas to kill me.. I would be gunning for him hard come tomorrow. Him or galain. Still, once Alkend doesn't counter claim, thats Eloth and HP and Alkend that are pretty much unlynchable. as Korbas sticks around he has to have the heat on him right???

[Path-Shaper]

I had kind of forgotten about you, but I think you're correct that you were the best possible choice to kill yesterday. You were easily the must unlynchable player left (thanks to your Dudeness, no doubt), and at the end of the game, you don't want to surround yourself with too many of those types.

Relying on the HP assist could be disastrous for Korbas because it should become 100% clear today that he's not lying. Korbas must kill HP tonight, unless he thinks he can manipulate HP's vote for the last day, because let's face it, whoever HP wants to lynch is going to get lynched since he will be CI.

[D'rek]

My computer at home seems to have kerplunked, but I finally found another computer to get on. Scenes are up and I'll have to think up another for tomorrow (that one there was the last one I had in advance, and it only partially, too). If possible I'll post it here in case I can't get my comp working again.

[Path-Shaper]

Morgoth has some pretty harsh words about the setup. I definitely agreed with him that the game seems way too focused around these town power roles. If they survive a few days, they provide insane information to the town.

Anyway, I told him I'd forward it along, so here it is.

Korbas, on 28 April 2010 - 09:10 PM, said:

You know what. I've pretty much lost all interest in this game. To even pretend that this was supposed to be a M&P game is fucking nuts.

M&P is about skill. Unlike the high complexity games we do, a M&P game is aimed at people winning through skill, not the luck of the draw. As such there needs to be some resemblance of balance. This game is not a M&P game, it's a fucking joke.

A balanced 21 player M&P game could have been say 3 killers and a symp vs A guard, a healer and a BP or a vig. Alternatively, 2 killers and 3 symps vs A healer and a finder could've worked. Or the 2 killers and 3 symps knowing only one master each vs a guard a healer and a bp or vig. All of these would've been fairly well balanced I think, though the last slightly in favour of the innos, but not too much so in my opinion.

Instead we get this crap.

Two killers who can be paralyzed by a single guard. The game had a 10% chance of being won by the innos at the start of day 2 for christ sake. The fact that Eloth was the only one who realised that Spite should not have been lynched does not change that. How anyone could've seen that mechanic and not immediately realise it was broken is beyond me. It alone turned the balance so far in favour of the innos it bordered on the absurd.

Yet that was not enough. The game was built so as to make fake reveals fucking impossible. The CF tells us whether the person dead was one of the two inno roles! And if that was not enough, it also shows whether a player was a symp or an inno. Sure there were another general and commandant or two, but whenever a player came up as something other we knew that player had been a RI. How the hell is that even remotely balanced?

You would think these things would make a person think twice, but instead, next to the super healer/guard we get a symp-finder! What the fuck! Was this whole thing just an exercise in how to make Morgoth waste two fucking weeks of his time?

The whole point of a symp is that they're supposed to be indistinguishable from innos outside of their actions in-game. It was completely irrelevant that the symps Gavin and I got are excellent players when their role had been turned into some kind of joke.

I'm pretty damned patient with high complexity games that turn out to be very unbalanced because I go to these games for the fun of trying something new. I want M&P games in between because they're what mafia is actually about and they're incredibly easy to balance. How this travesty of a game came to be is beyond me, but man I have not been this pissed in ages.

[Path-Shaper]

Korbas, on 28 April 2010 - 09:33 PM, said:

It's a shame I didn't get to play a proper game with you and vengy as my symps. Who played Gamelon again?


Also for the sake of pretending, make Eloth my next target.

[The Dude]

Yeah no Doubt... HP has to go tonight. Alkend is VPI Eloth is VPI...that leaves them 2 lynches between Korbas, Galain and D'riss. if Morgy chooses to kill Galain or D;riss with his kill in 2 nights, it's game over... as it is I think inno's have a good shot to win. But crafty morgy...there's always a chance.

[The Dude]

Path-Shaper, on 28 April 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

Morgoth has some pretty harsh words about the setup. I definitely agreed with him that the game seems way too focused around these town power roles. If they survive a few days, they provide insane information to the town.

Anyway, I told him I'd forward it along, so here it is.

Korbas, on 28 April 2010 - 09:10 PM, said:

You know what. I've pretty much lost all interest in this game. To even pretend that this was supposed to be a M&P game is fucking nuts.

M&P is about skill. Unlike the high complexity games we do, a M&P game is aimed at people winning through skill, not the luck of the draw. As such there needs to be some resemblance of balance. This game is not a M&P game, it's a fucking joke.

A balanced 21 player M&P game could have been say 3 killers and a symp vs A guard, a healer and a BP or a vig. Alternatively, 2 killers and 3 symps vs A healer and a finder could've worked. Or the 2 killers and 3 symps knowing only one master each vs a guard a healer and a bp or vig. All of these would've been fairly well balanced I think, though the last slightly in favour of the innos, but not too much so in my opinion.

Instead we get this crap.

Two killers who can be paralyzed by a single guard. The game had a 10% chance of being won by the innos at the start of day 2 for christ sake. The fact that Eloth was the only one who realised that Spite should not have been lynched does not change that. How anyone could've seen that mechanic and not immediately realise it was broken is beyond me. It alone turned the balance so far in favour of the innos it bordered on the absurd.

Yet that was not enough. The game was built so as to make fake reveals fucking impossible. The CF tells us whether the person dead was one of the two inno roles! And if that was not enough, it also shows whether a player was a symp or an inno. Sure there were another general and commandant or two, but whenever a player came up as something other we knew that player had been a RI. How the hell is that even remotely balanced?

You would think these things would make a person think twice, but instead, next to the super healer/guard we get a symp-finder! What the fuck! Was this whole thing just an exercise in how to make Morgoth waste two fucking weeks of his time?

The whole point of a symp is that they're supposed to be indistinguishable from innos outside of their actions in-game. It was completely irrelevant that the symps Gavin and I got are excellent players when their role had been turned into some kind of joke.

I'm pretty damned patient with high complexity games that turn out to be very unbalanced because I go to these games for the fun of trying something new. I want M&P games in between because they're what mafia is actually about and they're incredibly easy to balance. How this travesty of a game came to be is beyond me, but man I have not been this pissed in ages.

ouch... while it isn't exactly a M&P game.... I still had fun and don't think it was too crazy. I think he just needs to cool down .. have some high end whisky

[D'rek]

Path-Shaper, on 28 April 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

Morgoth has some pretty harsh words about the setup. I definitely agreed with him that the game seems way too focused around these town power roles. If they survive a few days, they provide insane information to the town.

Anyway, I told him I'd forward it along, so here it is.

Korbas, on 28 April 2010 - 09:10 PM, said:

You know what. I've pretty much lost all interest in this game. To even pretend that this was supposed to be a M&P game is fucking nuts.

M&P is about skill. Unlike the high complexity games we do, a M&P game is aimed at people winning through skill, not the luck of the draw. As such there needs to be some resemblance of balance. This game is not a M&P game, it's a fucking joke.

A balanced 21 player M&P game could have been say 3 killers and a symp vs A guard, a healer and a BP or a vig. Alternatively, 2 killers and 3 symps vs A healer and a finder could've worked. Or the 2 killers and 3 symps knowing only one master each vs a guard a healer and a bp or vig. All of these would've been fairly well balanced I think, though the last slightly in favour of the innos, but not too much so in my opinion.

Instead we get this crap.

Two killers who can be paralyzed by a single guard. The game had a 10% chance of being won by the innos at the start of day 2 for christ sake. The fact that Eloth was the only one who realised that Spite should not have been lynched does not change that. How anyone could've seen that mechanic and not immediately realise it was broken is beyond me. It alone turned the balance so far in favour of the innos it bordered on the absurd.

Yet that was not enough. The game was built so as to make fake reveals fucking impossible. The CF tells us whether the person dead was one of the two inno roles! And if that was not enough, it also shows whether a player was a symp or an inno. Sure there were another general and commandant or two, but whenever a player came up as something other we knew that player had been a RI. How the hell is that even remotely balanced?

You would think these things would make a person think twice, but instead, next to the super healer/guard we get a symp-finder! What the fuck! Was this whole thing just an exercise in how to make Morgoth waste two fucking weeks of his time?

The whole point of a symp is that they're supposed to be indistinguishable from innos outside of their actions in-game. It was completely irrelevant that the symps Gavin and I got are excellent players when their role had been turned into some kind of joke.

I'm pretty damned patient with high complexity games that turn out to be very unbalanced because I go to these games for the fun of trying something new. I want M&P games in between because they're what mafia is actually about and they're incredibly easy to balance. How this travesty of a game came to be is beyond me, but man I have not been this pissed in ages.

I know he's being deliberately angry in true Morgy faction, but nevertheless - every supposed advantage for town that he's complaining about is also advantageous for scum. Yeah, the 2 inno role names are known, but that means that if the scum had killed them they would then know those roles were dead. The healer/guard combo means that person can't know right away that they guarded correctly, rather than healed the victim. And he'd rather have a regular finder so that both town roles can catch the killers?

Yes, it all comes down to luck - the scum have to be lucky enough to kill the guard before he finds them, but that's always the case in any game with a killer and a guard. Always. To imagine that luck is not a part of mafia is just silly. If the scum is lucky, they get the guard and both of them get to try and avoid lynches for the rest of the game. If the town is lucky they guard the killers, skip a NK and then one killer and the guard die so they go up against the remaining killer with just lynches and detectivetry.

[Path-Shaper]

Perhaps, but I think the game can be mechanically balanced to account for 'luck.'

The "normal" way to play Mafia (that is rarely ever used here in ME) is to have the killers determine which of them will 'enact' the kill for the night. Thus, a guard can be used to find a particular killer, but 1) he can't know for certain if it's accurate because the next night, the killers can just change their 'used' player, and the guard would have to essentially trade his life for a scum CF via a reveal.

The concept of "paired" finders has always been quite odd to me. Mods seem to either like to let the killers completely ignore guards while multiple killers exist (in effect, making the guard role very weak early on and very strong later on) or the let the guard shut down multiple players (which just makes the guard too powerful). I wish more people would use the "designated killer" approach.

I do think "Meat and Potatoes" is a bit of a misnomer with the symp finder role, but I also think Morgy is just uspet that his chances to win have been so poor thanks to great/lucky plays by the town power roles.

[Path-Shaper]

Hood, on 29 April 2010 - 04:16 AM, said:

Makes this last one easy:

Find on D'riss.

if lynched,

Find on Alkend.

[Tapper]

The game may not me M&P but it most certainly is low tmdi. It's just a tad bit unfortunate that there were 2 fixes (both kill-transfer and updating the symps of their new master, altho that one was planned, I think?) necessary.

I wouldn't worry too much about it, not if I were D'rek nor if I were Morgy.

[dktorode]

Path-Shaper, on 28 April 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

Morgoth has some pretty harsh words about the setup. I definitely agreed with him that the game seems way too focused around these town power roles. If they survive a few days, they provide insane information to the town.

Anyway, I told him I'd forward it along, so here it is.

Korbas, on 28 April 2010 - 09:10 PM, said:

You know what. I've pretty much lost all interest in this game. To even pretend that this was supposed to be a M&P game is fucking nuts.

M&P is about skill. Unlike the high complexity games we do, a M&P game is aimed at people winning through skill, not the luck of the draw. As such there needs to be some resemblance of balance. This game is not a M&P game, it's a fucking joke.

A balanced 21 player M&P game could have been say 3 killers and a symp vs A guard, a healer and a BP or a vig. Alternatively, 2 killers and 3 symps vs A healer and a finder could've worked. Or the 2 killers and 3 symps knowing only one master each vs a guard a healer and a bp or vig. All of these would've been fairly well balanced I think, though the last slightly in favour of the innos, but not too much so in my opinion.

Instead we get this crap.

Two killers who can be paralyzed by a single guard. The game had a 10% chance of being won by the innos at the start of day 2 for christ sake. The fact that Eloth was the only one who realised that Spite should not have been lynched does not change that. How anyone could've seen that mechanic and not immediately realise it was broken is beyond me. It alone turned the balance so far in favour of the innos it bordered on the absurd.

Yet that was not enough. The game was built so as to make fake reveals fucking impossible. The CF tells us whether the person dead was one of the two inno roles! And if that was not enough, it also shows whether a player was a symp or an inno. Sure there were another general and commandant or two, but whenever a player came up as something other we knew that player had been a RI. How the hell is that even remotely balanced?

You would think these things would make a person think twice, but instead, next to the super healer/guard we get a symp-finder! What the fuck! Was this whole thing just an exercise in how to make Morgoth waste two fucking weeks of his time?

The whole point of a symp is that they're supposed to be indistinguishable from innos outside of their actions in-game. It was completely irrelevant that the symps Gavin and I got are excellent players when their role had been turned into some kind of joke.

I'm pretty damned patient with high complexity games that turn out to be very unbalanced because I go to these games for the fun of trying something new. I want M&P games in between because they're what mafia is actually about and they're incredibly easy to balance. How this travesty of a game came to be is beyond me, but man I have not been this pissed in ages.

Morgoth put into words pretty much exactly what i wanted to say but couldnt...I felt if i had started typing my "bitching" post i would have just ended up flying off the rails had probably have a hernia or something, so just left it at ....."uuugh"


Gooooosfra baaaaah goooooosfra baaaah

This post has been edited by dktorode: 29 April 2010 - 02:08 PM