[Path-Shaper]

 Path-Shaper, on 22 April 2010 - 10:09 PM, said:

It's a freaking Meat and Potatoes game. It's pretty clear it's 2 scum 3 symps from the setup.

People never fail to overcomplicate simplicity.

Drek, are you going to respond to Obdi about whether or not he can guard himself? We need a ruling on that.

-pb

Sent him this: You cannot successfully heal yourself. As usual rules, Guard takes effect first so you'd block your own heal.

[Path-Shaper]

Hood, on 23 April 2010 - 01:22 AM, said:

Find on Eloth

Speedy lynch may happen, forgot to do this!

[Path-Shaper]

Tulas Shorn, on 23 April 2010 - 02:00 AM, said:

Ok first off fuck liosangore bloody hell.... All that beautiful work getting spite offf of the fucking radar and this happens. Fuck fuck fuck......

Second do I find out who my new master is when spite is lynched???

Wait and see

---

(the answer is yes)

[Path-Shaper]

Hood, on 23 April 2010 - 03:32 AM, said:

<facepalm> Good thing I read this, I gave you the wrong name, I meant Tulas, but go ahead and leave it on Eloth for now - I'm waiting to see how this vote plays out. If it comes down to hammer time, I will probably change since I'm working off a list of characters I drew up.

[Jump Around]

Sorry, it doesn't say anywhere on this thread, and I'm a little confused:

Only Spite has a kill for now, the three symps know who Spite is but not Korbas, and if Spite dies Korbas becomes the killer. Is that correct?

[Jump Around]

If that's the case, though, I feel that guard + finder is a bit overkill, since the guard is basically an overpowered finder if there is only one killer at a time.

I had this issue in my Benses game, now I only put one or the other in, and never paired.

But with the cascade of inno modkill and the good symps they have, I think the scum might still have a chance.

[Path-Shaper]

Guard is definitely a big weight on the scale. If it dies too early, town is out huge. If it sticks around, that's a massive advantage. I'm not usually a fan of such "super power" roles.

Karosis is totally on the money here, from the main thread.

Quote

So I actually agree with Eloth's original position - if we keep guarding Spite we can search for other scum without the risk of an NK. If we vote Spite off today, we have to assume that Lio will die tonight - we can't pin our hopes on there being a second healer. If we vote off someone other than Spite, there is still chance that Lio might die, but if he doesnt we have pretty much absolute proof that Spite is in fact Lui Bei - 3 nights with no kill in a row can't be anything but a successful guard. If Lio does die, we can just lynch Spite off tomorrow. If he doesnt though, we have a huge advantage. I think it would be stupid of us not to take it. Worst case, if we haven't hit the other named scum by the time there are 11 people left we vote Spite off then, but we could possibly double the amount of time it would take us to get to that point.

Simply put, if you lynch off Spite, you assume the odds of Liosan dying are probably 12 in 13 (subtract Spite, Liosan), assuming you have to luckily block the other kill. So it's pretty much trading the power role for one killer.

On the other hand, you gamble and let Spite stay alive, Liosan keeps the killers locked down, and you proceed to lynch off players.

From a PURELY statistical point of view, they have the exact same potential 'worst' outcome. If you lynch Spite, you are almost guaranteed to lose Liosan. If you lynch someone else and (again, this is WCS, not reality) the guard doesn't save Liosan, you spend the next day lynching Spite. In the end, Spite is dead, Liosan is dead, and 2 others are dead (townies or symps who got lynched or NKd each day/night).

However, the upside is that if the theory is correct, you have managed to beat the game.

It's INCREDIBLY foolish of the town to discount that theory right now. Only a couple of people are advocating it (Eloth and Karosis, I believe). I think D'riss needs to lay down a math model that shows exactly why it would be beneficial to try the plan for one day and if it fails, lynch Spite.

[Path-Shaper]

Ah, I see you've changed the rules a bit, D'rek. Probably best for game balance, don't think it will screw anything up because if they get to use it, Spite wasn't lynched, and he'll probably get lynched tomorrow after Obdi dies tonight. Still, people will likely be annoyed that you're messing with mechanics after the fact, but it does appear to be too game-breaking to leave in.

Spite, on 23 April 2010 - 12:11 AM, said:

Sure, push my lynch in fact. I will argue against it of course.

I can't wait to see this setup.

Path-Shaper, on 23 April 2010 - 01:43 AM, said:

It has been decided (by me, don't think this is a plural thing) that I am granting you the ability at any time to have either of you discard your shared kill ability. The person discarding it remains able to talk to the other, but has no effect in regards to the kills. The other person becomes a solitary killer, affected by guards and heals as usual and all that.

You two can activate this once, whenever you want, by telling me here.

Cheers,
D'rek

Korbas, on 23 April 2010 - 01:45 AM, said:

well I guess the natural thing to do would be for us to do so if Spite is not lynched today, granting me that power. Do you agree, Gavin?

Path-Shaper, on 23 April 2010 - 01:48 AM, said:

I will allow you to do provisionals with it, too, ie "If Gavin is *not* lynched, do it and kill so-and-so, otherwise don't do it and kill blank"

Spite, on 23 April 2010 - 02:38 AM, said:

Sure I agree with that. If somehow I escape the lynch, he can Guard me again and we can kill Liosan. Shit that would put me in the clear big time.

Spite, on 23 April 2010 - 02:39 AM, said:

Of course it would mean if you die its game over.

Korbas, on 23 April 2010 - 03:12 AM, said:

the most logical explanation is that Liosan healed you from someone else's kill twice. I didn't dear to voice that argument myself but you might cause some confusion with it..

Spite, on 23 April 2010 - 04:51 AM, said:

Well that is the arguement I have used..

Should I reveal finder.. or as the other big name innocent?

Spite, on 23 April 2010 - 09:06 AM, said:

Holy crap, what the hell is going on. Do we have 3 symps out there or something?
Korvalain, Karosis are maybes. But Gamelon has just counter revealed! Classic symp stuff there.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 23 April 2010 - 02:10 PM

[Path-Shaper]

OK, I'm out for the weekend.

-pb

[Tapper]

Not that sure the fix is a good one, D'rek. I'll agree that something was necessary and this was elegant, but...

Without it, you have this stalemate, and scum loses, sure.
But with the fix, regardless of Spite living or dying, town loses its healer/guard who basically (although no-one knows it) is also a finder.

Even if Spite gets lynched, Obdi is dead and then it is 2 symps plus a solitary killer versus a pack of people and a symp finder (who, by the by, was close to spotting Venge). Odds that are I think slightly to the advantage of the scum, but not game breaking.

However, a major point here is that the symps only now learn the identity of the second killer... so there are no traces of symping on thread, either for the town to go by. Thus, all the symp-finder does (if he is even believed...) if he gets a symp lynched is lowering the required number for scum to win from 6 to 4 (and 2) players - but there is no tracing back the moves of the symps to see who they were protecting as they only now learn their new masters identity.

If Spite does not get lynched and Obdi dies, the game is basically over unless Korbas scres up, I think, as it effectively becomes 1 killer with 3 symps and town losing their strongest role.

[Tapper]

Gamelon's reveal smells like teen spirit desperate symp. I understand him up to a point, as Spite is the only master he knows, so he's willing to sacrifice himself, but this is... bound to be counterproductive in the long run.

[Path-Shaper]

 Jump Around, on 23 April 2010 - 06:49 AM, said:

If that's the case, though, I feel that guard + finder is a bit overkill, since the guard is basically an overpowered finder if there is only one killer at a time.

I had this issue in my Benses game, now I only put one or the other in, and never paired.

But with the cascade of inno modkill and the good symps they have, I think the scum might still have a chance.

It always a huge catch-22.

With just the one killer, the killer is two easily neutralized by a guard, a find or a single lynch.
With shared killers immune to guard, the town becomes finder-dependent and the guard is useless.
With shakred killers affected by guard, the town can continually guard one of them while lynch-hunting the other.

 Tapper, on 23 April 2010 - 08:39 AM, said:

Not that sure the fix is a good one, D'rek. I'll agree that something was necessary and this was elegant, but...

Without it, you have this stalemate, and scum loses, sure.
But with the fix, regardless of Spite living or dying, town loses its healer/guard who basically (although no-one knows it) is also a finder.

Even if Spite gets lynched, Obdi is dead and then it is 2 symps plus a solitary killer versus a pack of people and a symp finder (who, by the by, was close to spotting Venge). Odds that are I think slightly to the advantage of the scum, but not game breaking.

Well to my mind the scaling was that each killer was worth a roled inno, so lynching Spite resulting in Obdi dying is bringing both teams equal change.

 Tapper, on 23 April 2010 - 08:39 AM, said:

However, a major point here is that the symps only now learn the identity of the second killer... so there are no traces of symping on thread, either for the town to go by. Thus, all the symp-finder does (if he is even believed...) if he gets a symp lynched is lowering the required number for scum to win from 6 to 4 (and 2) players - but there is no tracing back the moves of the symps to see who they were protecting as they only now learn their new masters identity.

If Spite does not get lynched and Obdi dies, the game is basically over unless Korbas scres up, I think, as it effectively becomes 1 killer with 3 symps and town losing their strongest role.

This is not a new mechanic, I was always intending to implement this one if Liu Bei died. The plan also included to have a scene that pretty much says the symps are transferring their mastership so most innos will know. This, combined with that the town knows who their previous master was, the town still has a full thread of symping to spot them, there's just only 1 master at any time on thread.

--D'rek

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 23 April 2010 - 02:10 PM

[Path-Shaper]

Hood, on 23 April 2010 - 09:29 AM, said:

gurglesnarpfishpuddincakes


If Spite is lynched, Find on Liosan

If Alkend is lynched, Find on Gamelon


If I'm not allowed to submit provs like that, then find on Liosan.

Sure you can submit provs like that. What if neither is lynched?

[Path-Shaper]

Gamelon, on 23 April 2010 - 07:44 AM, said:

I think its very fucked up that you guys have managed to CI liosan and now he has found spite.
...very fucked up

le sigh


I cant discredit anything liosan has said...
son...i am disappoint

Gamelon, on 23 April 2010 - 08:02 AM, said:

Ok fake reveal time.

if spite dies im stuck here alone and have no idea who to symp...pointless

so go big or go home

Gamelon, on 23 April 2010 - 08:46 AM, said:

They are most likley going to think im trying to protect spite....wich i obviously am.

But the way i see it is i have one master and cant do shit once he is gone. So i have to try SOMETHING.
I cant just bite the bullet and distance as i dont know the other killer.
I cant vote of make or make a case on ANYONE because i wont know if he is my other master or not....


And sticking around to simply make up the numbers wont cut it...

Gamelon, on 23 April 2010 - 09:33 AM, said:

kind of FUCKED UP that you can deduce if someone is NOT a symp by his CF

VERY fucked up.

loisans CF that you let slip PROVES him not to be a symp?
Thats WACK!!!

Gamelon, on 23 April 2010 - 09:44 AM, said:

Ok....now that they aLL dont trust me....what will i do?

Uhmm......VOTE SPITE MUTHA FUCKERS!!!

Lets see if their mistrust of my beautiful self will now make them think twice about "doing what i want them to do".
Wanna see what they have to say now....hahahaha

If my master is going to go down, im gonna have to at least make a bit of mayhem before i become redundant!!

Gamelon, on 23 April 2010 - 09:47 AM, said:

Im still pissed at you guys for fucking this up BTW

YOUR FAULT!!!!!

Gamelon, on 23 April 2010 - 12:07 PM, said:

well....they called my bluff.
Didnt bloody bite....not that i expected them too. Though there was some nibbling

Eloth confirming that Liosan IS indeed who he says he is puts the nail in Spites coffin.

From here on in i do......nothing.
Cant risk inadvertently pointing at my unknown allies!

MMMMMUUUUUUUUFFFFFFFFIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

---

Hey dkt when you finally read this: one of your fellow symps was one of 2 people to see that minute slip-up and did nothing to dispel the Liosan CI nor to signal his masters to kill Lio -> that slip-up could've been far more advantageous for you guys instead.

[Path-Shaper]

and speaking of which...

Tulas Shorn, on 23 April 2010 - 02:02 PM, said:

Oh my fucking god....WOW... Now do I disprove Liosan to stall Spite lynch or do I sacrifice him and hope that the next leader will get the kills... Decisions decisions.... My gut says keep him alive... But my Brain says to sacrifice him to win and to keep Liosan from knowing that I'm scum.

If Liosan gets lynched and I said that he wasn't who he says he is then spite is the next lynch and I am after that. If somehow Liosan stays alive his is going to block Spite again and there will be no kill....

Which leads back to the above scenario. So the question becomes do I play like Spite is my only master or do I play as if I have another one and the game won't end if Spite dies.

Fucking Obdigore anyway... How he managed to latch on to spite on day two is beyond me... Bloody bugger... You sure he wasn't suppose to day that day.

Fuck fuck fuck..... I don't see any angles. Which means I am going to try to make on appear.. With out a plan that can be cause for alarm.

How to plan this out....

Well I can claim that I don't remember who Obdigores characters name was but that he was a Wing general. Then I can vote for Alkend based off of Gamelon's (symp) move. OF course that is the easy way out.... I need to have some kind of move in mind before I post on the thread otherwise god knows what kind of crap could come out of my mouth. Fuck fuck PB fuck fuck fuck... I hope that your family situation is ok nothing worse then that.... Man the game has sure turned into a cluster fuck though.


Ok I am going to go with the easy way out. It will have enough truth in it to balance out the lie...sigh..

Eloth, on 23 April 2010 - 01:49 PM, said:

If my plan I find out would have worked and I was correct, anyone who criticized it is a god damn fool for not considering it.

Path-Shaper, on 23 April 2010 - 02:22 PM, said:

Liosan, on 23 April 2010 - 01:13 PM, said:

I made those rules and so give you permission to break them

As you wish, they are now broken. From now on, heals prevent any actions and occur first, so whoever you heal cannot be guarded by your guard.

Liosan, on 23 April 2010 - 02:21 PM, said:

In a dual scenario, I win damnit.

I WANT TO USE MY HEALING CATAPULTS UPON MYSELF AND MY CADRE OF GARDS UPON BENT!

BUT WHAT ABOUT YOUR GUARDING FIREWORKS AND YOUR FINDING ARBALESTS???

Liosan, on 23 April 2010 - 02:23 PM, said:

I AM GOING TO LAUNCH DAGGERS THROUGH MY TERBUCHETS TO ELOTH AND THEREBY GIVE ELOTH A VIG!

OKAY!!! I'LL START FIRING YOU' LAZARS!!

Liosan, on 23 April 2010 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'm going to attach my catapults to my trebuchet's and use the Trebs to launch the catapults at D'rek, allowing her to then launch all the medical supplies she collected.

Too bad she's a super drug junkie and overdoses on all the supplies at once.

Liosan, on 23 April 2010 - 02:39 PM, said:

Awesome! No wonder she was so giggly last night.

Totally mon. Now where'd my cruisecontrolcapslocksforcool go, mon?

Liosan, on 23 April 2010 - 02:43 PM, said:

UNDER YOUR ROACH, MON.

OHMAGOD A COCKROACH, MON!

Liosan, on 23 April 2010 - 02:45 PM, said:

fail.

Extreme Victory!

Liosan, on 23 April 2010 - 02:47 PM, said:

That is the only outcome I ever receive.

Who is this?

D'rek of course!

Liosan, on 23 April 2010 - 02:58 PM, said:

I figured Tapper might be impersonating you. She is a weird one!

So are you happy with how this game is going?

Not happy with the modkills or with me screwing up posting you dead.

The supposed "balancing" issues that people are talking about though, no. Whether true or not, it's a learning experience to find out what works and what doesn't, and also what people will conjure in their imaginations that is unfair and untrue about the game.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 23 April 2010 - 03:01 PM

[Path-Shaper]

Hood, on 23 April 2010 - 02:19 PM, said:

CHEEKY!

Prov:

Find on Gamelon. Let's just leave it at that.

Simple.

To the point.

And oh soooo sexy.

Hood, on 23 April 2010 - 02:39 PM, said:

I prefer symps. They know who you are, and they love you, but you can't find them unless you watch carefully.



mmmmmm, stalkers.....

Tulas Shorn, on 23 April 2010 - 02:37 PM, said:

Well for dam sure I am not going to hammer my only master unless I know for sure that we won't lose and that the game will continue.

If they are waiting for me to hammer then we are all going to wait till the end of the day.

I will be lurking till either spite is lynched or the day ends. We both know that spite will be lynched before then though.

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 23 April 2010 - 02:43 PM

[Jump Around]

Wait, you have a symp-finder that can be proven to be who he claims to be on CF? Damned, that's cruel!

That's almost as bad as the time Macros made me a killer that comes up inno when investigated by finders, without mentioning to me that he put a pair of paranoid finders in the game.

I'm not criticizing the game or the balance, but I think there's just enough M&P deviations there that many of the players are planning on the wrong assumptions. That's entertaining to watch but can be frustrating for them.

[Jump Around]

Nice move still by dktorode. Let's see the Herald talk his way out of this one now

[Path-Shaper]

D'rek, here, gonna resolve.

edit: well nvm that seems PB did resolve. I may have to edit the scenes, though. (Ping Le? Really? That is an awful, awful name. No offense. The writing is great, but I can't have Yuan Shao not recognizing the Imperial Uncle himself (or murdering him himself!), that would be outrageously strange.)

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 24 April 2010 - 03:07 AM

[Path-Shaper]

 Korvalain, on 23 April 2010 - 05:22 PM, said:

Quote

The RotK game is a town v scum game, 1 killer w/ symps and only a few other roles.

For god's sake, when will mods remember to put the setup in the actual fucking game thread? You know, the one where the rules are. Where we play the game.

This at least helps to explain why Liosan's guard may have worked. The Gamelon/Liosan thing doesn't seem to mesh at all. If Gamelon actually guarded Liosan then why wasn't there a kill? I refuse to believe that the killers either witheld on night two or that they were so fucking useless they didn't get provisionals in. I'm sure one of them is lying at this point, probably Gamelon... especially since Liosan has that special name.

I'm looking forward to Spite's CF, anyway.

edit - tag fail

Oh get off your ass of pomposity. Maybe it's not in the game thread for a reason.