[Tiste Simeon]

After mentioning that I had these two wonderful rants saved, Apt asked me to repost them, and I love reading them so I figured this would be the best place for them to be immortalised. Enjoy.

Quote

Spiderman 3 and X-Men 3 both suffer from much the same unfortunate symptom. They both try to squeeze too much story into the film and kills it credibility, but Spiderman 3 is by far the biggest pile of fail of the two.

Spiderman 3 has not one bad guy, but three!

Sandman, who was always just a small fry supervillain in the comics, is suddenly a fucking powerhouse. He's able to fly, he's actually able to use other forms of earth than sand and he turns into a giant golem in the end of the film. He must be made out of a hundred tons of dirt and yet spiderman doesn't die when Sandman is hammering him again and again against an irongirder? WHAT THE HELL? What makes it to so frustrating is that Sandman who really didn't need to be in the film, is actually the most interesting part of the whole movie. Actor guy did a damn good job.

Harry Osbourn/Green Goblin is a fucking mess. While his scenes were some of the most awesome (flying razor bats are cool) the plot was made out of so much fail. Not really knowing what to do, the writters used the cheapest trick an author can pull. They based the story on omitting the truth. If Spiderman had just grown a pair of balls and told Harry he didn't kill his father and explained himself when Harry had amnesia, there wouldn't be a need for the fight. And if Mary Jane had just told Spiderman that Harry threatened Spiderman and his Aunt, then they wouldn't had broken off the relationship. Are we seriously to believe that she finds Osbourn so dangerous that she doesn't think Peter would just knock Osbourns head of his shoulders, if he threatened to hurt his family? The entire plot with Harry ruining Peters life was a load of bullshit that made no sense what so ever.
And then there's the fight in the secret room. HOW THE HELL DOES HARRY SURVIVE A HANDGRENADE DETONATING A FOOT FROM HIS FACE?! Yeah, yeah, he's got a scar afterwards, but seriously? SERIOUSLY? If he can survive a blast from a handgrenade, why can't he survive getting speared through the chest? HOW IS GETTING A CHEST WOUND MORE LETHAL THAN BEING BLOWN UP?! What's up with this bullshit.

Then finally we have Eddie Brock/Venom/The Suit. What. The. Hell?! The symbiot falls from the stars?! What... WHAT? IT'S VULNERABLE TO HEAT AND FLAMES FOR GODS SAKE! IT WOULD HAVE TURNED INTO ASH AND EMO TEARS IN A FALL THROUGH THE ATMOSPHERE!!! Then it crawls to Peters scooter and hides in his room for reasons we'll never know. But now is where the real crime occurs. The story of the suit, Peter using it and Peter trying to kill it happened over ten-fifteen books or something. Here they practically ignore its true effect. It's not able to form into clothes. It is how ever able to make it into a gay... sorry grey version of spidermans suit. WHY ISN'T IT JUST A BLACK SUIT LIKE THE ONE VENOM GETS!??! DO THEY THINK WE CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE?! We don't get to see how it makes him much stronger and faster. We don't get to see him fighting bad guys, etc. and being more violent than he usually would. Basically we don't see EVil SPIDERMAN, we see EVIL.... sorry, EMO PARKER. How do they portray him being evil? By making him wear black and having a Hitler Haircut?! WHAT?!! Then there's the dance scene and Peter slapping Mary Jane. I could dedicate two paragraphs alone to this subject, but suffice to say, everyone in the cinema was cringing at this part. It was terrible and I wonder why no-one in the cafe made a remark about Peter Parkers sudden super powers.

Eddie Brock was actually okay, I thought Topher Grace did a passably good job of playing psyco. But what was up with the suits power here? The suit drains a human beings blood to make web. So when Venom spins about a couple miles worth of tentacle stuff between the girders of the tower... how is Topher feeling? Venom of the comic books would had been unconcious or dead. And the death scene will cool looking was just bizarre. Harry Osbourn was able to survive a handgrenade to the face but Venom, who is much, much more durable, TURNS INTO NOTHING!?! WHAT? Not just Ediie Brock lying in a charred heap or anything. They actually wipe out Venom completely without any chance of him returning!? GRRHH.

Then there's Peter being so full of himself. This never happens in the comic books. Peter parker is never actually so lucky that he gets a parade. He's always hunted and down on his luck. It's what Spiderman is all about. And when did Mary Jane become such a god damn wuss? Why not just tell Peter that she was struggling? And why not let him have his day in the sun?! BLA BLA BLA WHAAAA YOU DON'T GIVE ME ATTENTION.... WWHHHAAA!. pfffh.

And Peters constantly losing the mask or just taking it off. Spiderman spends more time demasked than actually concealing his face. IT'S NOT A SECRET IDENTITY WHEN EVERYONE CAN SEE YOUR FACE! Stupid Hollywood and their need to show off pretty boy maguires emo tears.

EDIT: I nearly forgot. Harry is dying downstairs, bleeding out of his chest, but Peter has to go stop Sandman. What happens? Sandman and Spiderman has A 5 MINUTE LONG EMO SESSION CRYING ON THE ROOF.... AND THEN SANDMAN JUST FLIES THE FUCK AWAY?! WHAT THE HELL?! He's a murderer, he's killed god knows how many people and Peter just lets him go... what? So the last five minutes were a waste. 5 minutes he could have used to get Harry to the fucking hospital! If Spiderman is able to get Harry to the hospital when he practically dies in the opening of the film. WHY THE FUCK CAN'T HE SAVE HIM IN THE END?! SUNRISE MY ASS!

Then there's the other shitpile... X-Men 3.

X-Men 3 isn't nearly as bad as Spiderman, it actually earned some cool points for being gutsy. Actually killing off Cyclops and Professor X? Wow. Juggernaught and Phoenix were cool aswell.

But that's about where the awesome ends. This films main problem is that it isn't really a story. It's about 3 cool scenes and then a lot of filler. You have the Professor X vs Phoenix/X-men vs. Mutant Brotherhood fight. Then the forest battle thing where Wolverine is suddenly scared of people firing darts, and finally that stupid, stupid fight at alcatraz or where ever that took place. It's a mediochre film with poor story choices.

See, X-men has been running for about 50 years or something. That's decades and decades of great story arcs. Why did Hollywood then decide to throw Marvel history out of the window and just make shit up instead? What they're mixing together there is the Jean Grey/Dark Phoenix story arc with the governments attempt at controlling the mutant population. These two storylines do not mix. They just don't. One is a slightly realistic take on racism and fear in America - after all that is what Mutants in Marvelcomics is all about. The other is a story about a godlike mutant POWERFULL ENOUGH TO EAT A SUN! How do these two stories mix? Stupid fucking Hollywood.

And then there's the depowering of many of the mutants in the end. That's just lame. It's like they took House of M, a very controversial Marvel story arc, and then decided that could all be handled much better by the cure being an antidote taken from the body of a child and then thrown at the mutants IN THE FORM OF NEEDLES!!! BAAAH.

I think what actually broke my heart in this film was that they promised us Sentinels and we didn't get them. The opening is a training session in the Danger Room where a big AWESOME LOOKING MUTANT KILLING ROBOT is chasing them. Did we get more Robots? NO! WHY HOLYWOOD?! WHY?! Are we really supposed to believe that the government was going to fight mutants with soldiers and rocketlaunchers with needles? Why didn't they give us a dozen sentinels aswell? It would had been so sweet and it would actually had made the ending awesome.

Off the top of my head I can think of at least a dozen Marvel storylines that were so much better than what they used in X-men 3

- The Sentinel Program. Have something about the big robots being mass produced and waging war on the mutants. Make the twist that their programming is evoling and they're going to take over America.
- Apocalypse and the Four Horsemen. The most awesome mutant ever and some of the best stories X-men have had.
- Sinister and the Morlocks living under New York. Mutant Experiments, monsters, mutant progroms in the sewers.
- The island of Genosha and Mutant slavery. The Government of Genosha invading countries and stealing their mutants. Many of the X-men becoming slaves and dying in the civil wars of the african nation.
- The showdown with magneto on the big asteroid base in outerspace pitting the X-men against the Mutant brotherhood. Wolveine getting all the adamantium ripped out of his body.
- The Phallanx. Alien biologic nanomachine viruslike artificial intelligence out to consume the world.
- Legion, Professor Xs son, and the Shadow King. Too much awesome to be contained in one film.
etc, etc, etc.

This post has been edited by Tiste Simeon: 17 April 2010 - 03:42 PM

[Aptorian]

My god. Why didn't I run that through a spell check before posting that? I must have been really angry.

3 years later it still stings.

[Tsundoku]

The Truth does not age at all, Apt. Nice work.

The hate I have for The-Alleged-Spiderman-film=that-actually-does-not-exist is boundless. I believe this level of hate, if correctly harnessed could possibly make me manifest Sith powers. Without any whiny crybaby shit in between.

I believe both those steaming piles of diseased turds should be used in film study courses as leading examples of How To Kill Off A Quality Film Franchise. I have no idea what was going through Sam Raimi's mind in particular, but it sure wasn't "How can I make the best film possible?". It was more like "I MUST get out of this contract - and bring Toby, Kirsten and James and most of my directorial credibility with me".

God damn, it's 5am on Sunday and I'm only on for a quick browse after waking up for a loo stop and some biscuits, but this still managed to bring back the hate I had tried to bury under years of repression and denial. I may have to use this sudden burst of loathing to play some DDO and kill me some bad guys. Or maybe read news.com.au and post snarky comments on human interest fluff stories. Or something else appropriately nasty yet ultimately pointless (like post about how much I hate some movies somewhere those connected with the artistic abortions will never see it).

[Aptorian]

Sombra, on 17 April 2010 - 07:50 PM, said:

God damn, it's 5am on Sunday and I'm only on for a quick browse after waking up for a loo stop and some biscuits, but this still managed to bring back the hate I had tried to bury under years of repression and denial. I may have to use this sudden burst of loathing to play some DDO and kill me some bad guys. Or maybe read news.com.au and post snarky comments on human interest fluff stories. Or something else appropriately nasty yet ultimately pointless (like post about how much I hate some movies somewhere those connected with the artistic abortions will never see it).

Time well spent.

[Tsundoku]

Aptorian, on 17 April 2010 - 07:55 PM, said:

Sombra, on 17 April 2010 - 07:50 PM, said:

God damn, it's 5am on Sunday and I'm only on for a quick browse after waking up for a loo stop and some biscuits, but this still managed to bring back the hate I had tried to bury under years of repression and denial. I may have to use this sudden burst of loathing to play some DDO and kill me some bad guys. Or maybe read news.com.au and post snarky comments on human interest fluff stories. Or something else appropriately nasty yet ultimately pointless (like post about how much I hate some movies somewhere those connected with the artistic abortions will never see it).

Time well spent.

Heh, true. It does make one feel better to vent. Like a big emotional poo that achieves a temporary state of zen really.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 17 April 2010 - 08:03 PM

[haroos]

the spiderman movies sucked because of sam reimi.
end of story.
watch hercules and xena and you will know that reimi isn't capable of quality.
watch spiderman 1-3 more than once, and you get a terrible product.

but to be honest, i used to read comics, and i tell you, the real problem with comix movies is that they are for kids.
comix, i thought, was maturing slowly, but then came the retcons of both marvel and dc. and i saw it as "for kids" only, and i stopped reading.
spiderman is a beatup character, a 30 years old virgin (post brand new day), with advanced degrees who can barely get a job ... yeah right.
they made peter parker into a stupid imbecile character that doesn't deserve to continue to exist.


about the x-men, the first 2 were ok as movies, even as comix movies, the third, from what i know was ruined because the actors left, and the story suffered for it.
x-men has a better chance to succeed as movies because there are more characters, and if one sucks as badly as spiderman, you just move on to another.
difuse.

the only good comix movies, imo, are :
the punisher 1.
watchmen (less than the actual comix).
x-men 1.

[Aptorian]

haroos, on 17 April 2010 - 08:39 PM, said:

the spiderman movies sucked because of sam reimi.

Whoah there. Spiderman 1 and 2 are certainly okay superhero movies. They worked okay, despite Maguire and that red headed monster they cast as Mary Jane. Okay scripts, faithful to the characters and the comic, great super hero fights and great effects. Not exactly award winning quality but so good that it actually became okay for non comic book nerds to like superhero films again.

haroos, on 17 April 2010 - 08:39 PM, said:

watch hercules and xena and you will know that reimi isn't capable of quality.

You take those filthy words back, you heathen. Hercules, but more importantly Xena, were two great fantasy series that by some freakish miracle managed to stay on air for ... what, 6, 7 years in Xenas case? Yes the production value was cheap and we're not talking episodes with deep themes or anything, but those series were different, fun and creative. They had Bruce Campbell starring in them for heavens sake!

Towards the end the Xena series was actually becoming pretty complex and the over arching plot was hela cool. The roman empire, Christ and the Norse Gods helped keep my attention during the weekends when I was hungover and just wanted some easy watching.

haroos, on 17 April 2010 - 08:39 PM, said:

the only good comix movies, imo, are :
the punisher 1.
watchmen (less than the actual comix).
x-men 1.

Don't forget:

Tim Burtons Batman (1 and 2, we do not speak of 3 and 4)
Chris Nolans Batman - The Dark Knight is one of the best films I've ever seen.
The two first Spiderman films IMO.
Ironman
The Hulk movies from the 70s-80s were hilarious.
The Hulk film with Eric Bana and Nick Nolte, I didn't like the Norton version.
Hancock, I guess. Allthough he's not really a comic book super hero.

[Illuyankas]

1. Burton only did 1 and 2, the others were Joel Schumacher and yes, appalling
2. The Bana Hulk movie and Hancock? Green CGI Man floats around a desert with horrendously bad editing; and half an OK movie, half a pile of shit? Really?

[Aptorian]

Illuyankas, on 17 April 2010 - 09:06 PM, said:

2. The Bana Hulk movie and Hancock? Green CGI Man floats around a desert with horrendously bad editing;

Yeah, the CGI was not exactly great. Pretty bad actually. But at the time I thought it was awesome. It also made a weird choice combining the Absorbing Mans powers with Zaxxx and putting them inside Banners father.

But it was such an entertaining film. Every time he changed into the Hulk my inner Hulk fan boy was squealing in joy. Scenes like where the police are shooting at him and you see him visibly grow bigger and stronger, the fist fight with the Hulk Dogs, etc. It's an ugly mess of a film, but I liked it better than the more boring Norton version all though admittedly Tim Roth was great as the psychopath spoiling for a fight.

Illuyankas, on 17 April 2010 - 09:06 PM, said:

and half an OK movie, half a pile of shit? Really?

First half of Hancock is AWESOME. Second half is a cop out of epic proportions. Still, besides all that, when Hancock is in badass anti-hero mode, the film is awesome. That would be a Superman character I could believe in.

EDIT: Come to think of it, the first Fantastic 4 film was also bearable. Not enough action, a bit awkward towards the end, but it got the job done. The guy, what's his face from Charmed, was perfect for the role as Victor Von Doom, unfortunately they didn't do enough about his disfiguration.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 17 April 2010 - 09:18 PM

[worry]

never trust a man who doesn't like sam raimi.

[Illuyankas]

Aptorian, on 17 April 2010 - 09:16 PM, said:

Hulk Dogs

That's another thing, the bloody gamma poodle. And Norton's Hulk had actual weight and wasn't lime green.

Aptorian, on 17 April 2010 - 09:16 PM, said:

first Fantastic 4 film

bearable

The guy, what's his face from Charmed, was perfect for the role as Victor Von Doom

The guy, what's his face from Charmed

perfect for the role as Victor Von Doom

guy from Charmed

perfect for Doom

SHUT UP YOU ARE BANNED FROM OPINIONS FOR EVER

[Aptorian]

NO U!

Did you ever actually watch charmed (I did, way too much of it...) the character Cole was one of the few good recurring characters. Julian McMahon works as Victor von Doom because he's capable of pulling off that superior arrogance that you'd expect of Doom. Yes, he didn't exactly ham it up, but it served its purpose.

McMahon was pretty much the only good thing about Fantastic Four 2, well... besides Jessica Alba in spandex.

[Illuyankas]

Aptorian, on 17 April 2010 - 09:43 PM, said:

NO U!

Did you ever actually watch charmed (I did, way too much of it...) the character Cole was one of the few good recurring characters. Julian McMahon works as Victor von Doom because he's capable of pulling off that superior arrogance that you'd expect of Doom. Yes, he didn't exactly ham it up, but it served its purpose.

McMahon was pretty much the only good thing about Fantastic Four 2, well... besides Jessica Alba in spandex.

OH GOD I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO GET ANY WORSE

OF COURSE I DIDN'T WATCH CHARMED, I DON'T HAVE A VAGINA

HE WAS ABOUT AS ARROGANT AS A TEA COSY, AND LESS IMPOSING, THERE ISN'T A NUMBER BIG ENOUGH TO ENCAPSULATE HOW BADLY HE FAILED AT PLAYING DOOM

LAURENCE FISHBOURNE'S VOICE WAS THE BEST THING BY FAR ABOUT THAT MOVIE, AND JESSICA ALBA WAS THE SECOND WORST MISCASTING IN THE WHOLE FRANCHISE, AFTER MCMAHON

NEXT YOU'LL SAY THAT AVRIL LAVIGNE MAKES GOOD MUSIC OR SOMETHING ELSE EQUALLY WRONG

SEE A DOCTOR, YOU HAVE A TUMOUR WHERE YOUR SENSE OF TASTE SHOULD BE

[polishgenius]

X-Men 3 wasn't nearly as bad as some of its rep suggests. I mean, it was poor, but like the rant says, there were awesome bits and the rest was bleh. It wasn't actively awful. I think its reputation is actually damaged by Spider-man 3 because people tie them together in their heads.

Now, I've only ever seen 5 minutes of Spider-man 3 - part of the ending and a couple in the middle. Not even seen the infamous dance scene. And it really is reprehensibly bad. 'Too many villains and plot threads' is often trotted out as an explanation, but it nowhere near covers the utter incompetence dripping from even the most casual thing (I can't remember what the bit was I watched in the middle, I just remember it was bad. Iirc it involved the girl downstairs and a cake or something). I'm tempted to suspect Raimi did it on purpose to protest against studio interference.

[Tiste Simeon]

Epic fanboy hatred here, guys keep it up!

As for my opinion, if Spiderman 3 had never existed I may have hated X3 a lot more than I do. As it stands, X3 is a passably good movie, not standing up to X1 and 2 but still, not a complete pile of dog poop like Spiderman 3 was. Not seen the first Fantastic Four though I do remember being surprised that they made a second, considering how bad rep the first received.

Not sure that last sentence worked, just got back from the pub...

[Abyss]

I actually thought SPIDEY 1 was terribly mediocre at best. Awful acting, lame plot, most spidey fx looked like the CGI they were. 2 was way better in all respects, better performances, better villain, just overall better. 3... start with the hacksawed story, and the awful acting and descend from there. Crap flic and not even in a good way.

I liked XM 1 and 2. XM3... i'm all over the place with this film. The entire Phoenix storyline was a waste of tape, but it did have the some decent parts. Similarly, i didn't mind the WOLVERINE flic as much as some did.

FF1 was a cheesy flic but mildly entertaining. 2, no. Just no.

Both HULK flics were weak but Norton-Hulk had decent action scenes and Tim Roth chewing raw scenery with a shot of vodka as Blonsky. Bana-Hulk was just a mess - sure the fight vs the military was mildly cool, but otherwise it was a gamma irradiated dog of a movie.

The very first BATMAN succeeded for its novelty and Jack Nicholson as the Joker. It didn't age that well. 2... aside from Michell Pfeifer as Catwoman, 2 was a waste of lifespan ditto the rest of that set of movies. BEGINS and DARK KNIGHT were awesome.

SUPERMAN LIFTS THINGS... less said, the better. But the original SUPERMAN 2 is great fun, even with the dated fx.

I'm afraid i found both PUNISHER movies terribly weak. I wanted to like them but it just didn't fly, thank you marvel for trying.

IRON MAN was great fun.

WATCHMEN was solid.

THE INCREDIBLES remains the best superhero movie ever.



- Abyss, will deny the CAPTAIN AMERICA movie ever happened.

[Morgoth]

The only thing this thread proves is that -apart from some glimmers including the OP- Apt has no taste what so ever.

[Aptorian]

Illuyankas, on 17 April 2010 - 09:49 PM, said:

OH GOD I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO GET ANY WORSE

OF COURSE I DIDN'T WATCH CHARMED, I DON'T HAVE A VAGINA

Silly chicken. You didn't watch Charmed for the acting or plot (which some how managed to get worse and more convoluted for every year that passed), you watch Charmed because of the hot chicks in funny costumes, mostly Alyssa Milano, not so much the other chicks. You watch it because besides Buffy and later on Supernatural, Charmed, despite being a chick show, was the only well financed series that brought fantasy and magic to the screen every week. Sure, the background and lore contradicted itself every week and the bad guys and the "witchery" was half assed, but it WAS STILL funny demons and witches and cool fire balls and stabby knives, etc. every time. Despite how bad it was, I loved every part with McMahon. His recurring roles as bad guy, good guy, semi-bad-good-confused-all powerful-indestructible-deity were always entertaining.

Illuyankas, on 17 April 2010 - 09:49 PM, said:

NEXT YOU'LL SAY THAT AVRIL LAVIGNE MAKES GOOD MUSIC OR SOMETHING ELSE EQUALLY WRONG

SEE A DOCTOR, YOU HAVE A TUMOUR WHERE YOUR SENSE OF TASTE SHOULD BE

Avril Lavigne makes good pop music. Don't give me that macho "hurf durf only girls and poofs like girl pop" spiel. She makes catchy tunes, she sings well, she even plays well, her music videos are entertaining. She makes good music. No she is not Freddy Mercury or Gary More, but she has talent and she is easy on the eyes. Don't be one of those angry neckbeards and music snobs that refuses to acknowledge that pop music is good music. That's why it's called popular music. It's made to appeal.

Morgoth, on 18 April 2010 - 06:00 AM, said:

The only thing this thread proves is that -apart from some glimmers including the OP- Apt has no taste what so ever.

Well, at least I dare to like and dislike what it isn't mainstream to like and dislike. I'd rather make up my own mind than just hating on what ever it is currently popular to be unhappy with.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 18 April 2010 - 06:54 AM

[haroos]

Aptorian, on 17 April 2010 - 09:00 PM, said:

haroos, on 17 April 2010 - 08:39 PM, said:

the spiderman movies sucked because of sam reimi.

Whoah there. Spiderman 1 and 2 are certainly okay superhero movies. They worked okay, despite Maguire and that red headed monster they cast as Mary Jane. Okay scripts, faithful to the characters and the comic, great super hero fights and great effects. Not exactly award winning quality but so good that it actually became okay for non comic book nerds to like superhero films again.

haroos, on 17 April 2010 - 08:39 PM, said:

watch hercules and xena and you will know that reimi isn't capable of quality.

You take those filthy words back, you heathen. Hercules, but more importantly Xena, were two great fantasy series that by some freakish miracle managed to stay on air for ... what, 6, 7 years in Xenas case? Yes the production value was cheap and we're not talking episodes with deep themes or anything, but those series were different, fun and creative. They had Bruce Campbell starring in them for heavens sake!

Towards the end the Xena series was actually becoming pretty complex and the over arching plot was hela cool. The roman empire, Christ and the Norse Gods helped keep my attention during the weekends when I was hungover and just wanted some easy watching.

haroos, on 17 April 2010 - 08:39 PM, said:

the only good comix movies, imo, are :
the punisher 1.
watchmen (less than the actual comix).
x-men 1.

Don't forget:

Tim Burtons Batman (1 and 2, we do not speak of 3 and 4)
Chris Nolans Batman - The Dark Knight is one of the best films I've ever seen.
The two first Spiderman films IMO.
Ironman
The Hulk movies from the 70s-80s were hilarious.
The Hulk film with Eric Bana and Nick Nolte, I didn't like the Norton version.
Hancock, I guess. Allthough he's not really a comic book super hero.

[amphibian]

Morgoth, on 18 April 2010 - 06:00 AM, said:

The only thing this thread proves is that -apart from some glimmers including the OP- Apt has no taste what so ever.

I actually agree with Apt regarding Julian from Charmed and the reasons to watch Charmed. I think Hercules and Xena were acceptable fare, but honestly, the writers got lazy for so much of it that I bailed early on both series and watched mystified as Xena became the All Lesbians' Favorite TV Show Eva.

I also agree with him about liking the Bana-Nolte Hulk much more than the Norton one.