Malazan Empire: Marines - Malazan Empire

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Marines Am I missing something? Rate Topic: -----

#41 User is online   QuickTidal 

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 06:28 PM

View Postworrywort, on 17 June 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

I'd also mention how much I love the Mhybe, and it's absolutely true, but I think more than just Abberon would consider that sheer contrarionism.


the Mhybe was one of those characters who I initially didn't care for, but as time went on and she got more and more tragic, her character REALLY ramps up the emotion in a fairly blunt way and by the end I actually liked her a great deal!
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#42 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 08:21 PM

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 17 June 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

Fair enough. I happen to disagree, and DoD is my favorite book in the series, but I can recognize how some might not like that stuff. It is dark. It is long-winded. It is depressing. And, I think that fits perfectly well.


There are some parts where DoD really shines. I can see it, it's just it drowns in things that take away from the experience I had.

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 17 June 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

Not all soldiers are Nietzsche as they are portrayed here, but if I can dismiss lizards so technologically advanced they create flying mountains or gods constantly interfering with the world, I don't find it hard to stay within my realm of suspension of disbelief that there are philosopher-soldiers en masse in the Bonehunters.


Well we have to suspend disbelief all throughout the series. I've been doing it since book 1 and it doesn't really take away that much from the fun. The philosopher marines aren't so much a problem because it's hard to believe they're all PhD's, but more because you can drown in the number of perspectives we get and how similar/redundant they feel (my opinion :lol: ).

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 17 June 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

And, anyone who has studied history knows that not only is it written by the victor's and is biased in such a way, witnesses to the same event or persons involved in the same event can be on totally opposite ends of the spectrum in how they understand an event happened.


I think my issue with this argument is that I don't really accept it as a history. I've read a LOT of history and never read anything that presents at length the inner musings and discussions of 100 different characters. It reads just like any other novel I've ever written and no disrespect intended but I can't see how it's in any way a history other than that people tell us that. Duiker and the Chain of Dogs could definetly be read as a history, but it's hard to see that elsewhere. Maybe we could call it the "The Malazan Collective Diaries of the Fallen." Hehe. I kid.

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 17 June 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

Further, equating the forum as a whole as some sort of monolith out to disagree with you is both antagonistic to those who will listen to your arguments and to those who genuinely disagree.


Most of the forum has been quite pleasant. There have been a very specific 3-4 people who seem to take my criticism personally but aside from that I have no complaints. I will stand up and say that the argument about Pale became less than cordial and my later posts responding to Kanese weren't my brightest posts. I could have worded them a LOT better.

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 17 June 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

Tl;dr: This is an Erikson fan-forum. Criticism generally will be met with disagreement. I think that is to be expected. Some react with more vitriol than others, and you fell victim to some of the latter......Changing goalposts, arguing you were interpreted incorrectly, or that the forum is out to get you will only take away from your legitimate criticisms while increasing the reciprocal antagonism with those who you are having vociferous disagreements with as everybody likes to be seen as an individual poster with an individual opinion.


I realize people are going to disagree with me. As for the changing goalposts etc, I think we're beating that one to death. I'm not sure why you call it that, because I'm pretty sure nobody was trying to 'win' anything, but I did try to clarify my very literal language.

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 17 June 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

I don't think you are a troll, and I think you've said enough positive things about the series that anybody who would be simply reacting to perceived initial trolling has been proven wrong. But, if you are going to criticize, be prepared for strong rebuttal in some cases.


Thank you and point taken.
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#43 User is offline   Loki 

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:56 AM

In regards to what Abberon has said regarding the first half of the series versus the second half of the series, assuming that I have understood what he is trying to say correctly, I have to say that I agree with him.
I personally prefer to think of the first four books as their own little series. I haven't gotten past Reaper's Gale, not for lack of trying (several times), I just find the book to be fairly boring. The writing quality is still exceptional but the plots are not interesting to me. I read the series because I liked the world and characters that were in the first four books. Midnight Tides and Reapers Gale add a whole new group of characters and plots that, if they were written before the first four books I probably wouldn't have even bothered to read the series. I've started viewing the later books as necessary historical volumes that I need to read in order to understand the outcomes that the characters I'm actually interested about end up with and why. I have every intention of reading the series through - and there's a chance that when I finish it I'll look back and appreciate the second half of the series with renewed understanding but for now I'm firmly in the camp that prefers the first half of the series.



EDIT: I'm sorry but in my opinion the Mhybe had no redeeming or endearing qualities.....besides keeping Col and co in the story. :lol:

This post has been edited by Loki: 21 June 2011 - 03:59 AM

Wry, on 29 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

And you're not complaining, you're criticizing. It's a side-effect of being better than everyone else, I get it sometimes too.

~TQB~
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#44 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 05:40 AM

Haha Loki I thought Midnight Tides was one of the best in the series. It was a high point for me and stands right up there with DG. It was, at first, very frustrating to me with how we COMPLETELY left Genabackis and SC, but it had the same sort of narrative arc that GotM, DG and MOI had and I like it.
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#45 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 07:12 AM

I also was at first all "wait, what the hell?" with Midnight Tides, but quickly came to love it.
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#46 User is offline   Gothos 

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 07:28 AM

Well, I would say that Mr Erikson could've cut the number of marines given insights by like 10-15% and it would've been more fluid, but still... I did go through the five stages of grief at the end, so I guess it worked.
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#47 User is offline   koryk 

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 11:20 PM

Yes, there are too many Marine POVS - some third-person stuff about them would have been sufficient. The same is true of all the various clans of the White Face Barghast, and the pointlessnes of all their posturings as basically all of them are now dead. I suppose ultimately I should keep my opinions of the series as a whole until I have read TCG, but there is no doubt that this is the most amazing fantasy series I have ever read. Nowhere else has the sheer complexity and magnitude been offset by moments of staggering poignancy, minor characters getting their day in the sun, etc. I look forward to more comprehensive treatises on the entire MBOTF at a later date. Though without doubt the novelty has worn off, the appreciation continues to grow. Quibbles there are, and should be, for if not, then perfection is reached (OK, MOI came as close as you can get), and there are longeurs (I am not the greatest fan of Tehol and Bugg). But we are united in our appreciation of the endeavour if not every twist and turn. I have been reading MBOTF for what seems like forever (probably in reality less than 6 years). Am I looking forward to a re-read. By heck! I envy those of you who have the luxury to be able to do this in the face of all the other books out there.
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#48 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 12:47 AM

View Postkoryk, on 21 June 2011 - 11:20 PM, said:

The same is true of all the various clans of the White Face Barghast, and the pointlessnes of all their posturings as basically all of them are now dead.


Call me crazy, but I think there might be something to think about here.
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#49 User is offline   Loki 

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 03:54 AM

View PostAbberon, on 21 June 2011 - 05:40 AM, said:

Haha Loki I thought Midnight Tides was one of the best in the series. It was a high point for me and stands right up there with DG. It was, at first, very frustrating to me with how we COMPLETELY left Genabackis and SC, but it had the same sort of narrative arc that GotM, DG and MOI had and I like it.


Don't get me wrong, I love Midnight Tides but I view it as a kinda stand alone book - same world, same principles, different characters. I moved past my frustration regarding having none of the plots or characters I was interested in once Bonehunters came out.......unfortunately, that hasn't worked with Reaper's Gale.

I'd really like to move on to DOD - for me, the marine presence and POV's have made for some of the most interesting and emotion provoking scenes and dialogue and from what I gather it only intensifies in DOD.

Wry, on 29 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

And you're not complaining, you're criticizing. It's a side-effect of being better than everyone else, I get it sometimes too.

~TQB~
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#50 User is offline   Rhand 

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:29 PM

Just for the record, I completely agree with Abberon in almost every conceivable way concerning his critic of DoD.

Rather boring book saved by the last hundreds of pages, just like TTH.
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#51 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 03:34 PM

I ended up liking TTH and thought the ending (almost) completely redeemed it. The showdown with the Dying God at Black Coral gave some meaning to what I had until then felt was a painfully boring plot line. The duel between Rake and Dassem Ultor and the fight with the Hounds was just great. That book REALLY came together at the end.

DoD didn't do it for me at all and the finale, while cool, also seemed kind of goofy. I can't stand the idea of the KCCM and think they're really silly. Their flying-laser-death-fortresses-of-doom started to remind me of the some of the vague and overwhelming magical battles of WoT of Lord of the Isles, where armies and soldiers seem kind of irrelevant in the face of apocalyptic sorcery where hundreds/thousands of them die when the sorcerer just looks at them.

That, however, is really a matter of preference for me. I prefer a less over-the-top level of magic like in Prince of Nothing, where I think it was done REALLY well.
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#52 User is offline   Bauchelain the Evil 

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 08:35 AM

View PostAbberon, on 04 July 2011 - 03:34 PM, said:



That, however, is really a matter of preference for me. I prefer a less over-the-top level of magic like in Prince of Nothing, where I think it was done REALLY well.



Wait,wait,what!? Sorcerers in PoN can destroy entire armies. The only thing that stops them being omnipotent are chorae. I agree that magic in PoN is well done, but to say it's not over-the-top is ridiculous.
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#53 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 07:20 AM

You prefer a less over the top magic style and you're reading this series? Waaaat?


I always really liked the KCCM, because I like exploring the idea of completely separate types of intelligent species inhabiting the same world. I mean, yeah, there are Jaghut, Toblakai, Imass and such, but they're all vaguely humanoid, whereas the KCCM are completely different. And also, dinosaurs are awesome.
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#54 User is offline   Phaedrus 

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 11:25 PM

View PostKanese S, on 01 June 2011 - 06:02 AM, said:



Just for the record, I completely disagree with Abberon in every conceivable way. Dust of Dreams took me a long time to read only because I had to keep putting it down to give my emotions a break. Also, I think it's silly to read half a book (Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God, in my opinion, comprise two halves of one book) and then stop to go back and do a series re-read when the second half is available.

I would have been fine with MORE of the newer characters, actually. More Sinter and Kisswhere, more Badan Gruk, more Skanarow, etc.


Agreed 100% I actually really enjoyed these characters and am pretty sad I wont be seeing them again :doh:
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