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Marines Am I missing something? Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:16 PM

View PostKanese S, on 01 June 2011 - 06:02 AM, said:

Just for the record, I completely disagree with Abberon in every conceivable way.


Of course you do. You've made it VERY clear that you'll disagree with me on every conceivable subject as well.

View PostKanese S, on 01 June 2011 - 06:02 AM, said:

Dust of Dreams took me a long time to read only because I had to keep putting it down to give my emotions a break. Also, I think it's silly to read half a book (Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God, in my opinion, comprise two halves of one book) and then stop to go back and do a series re-read when the second half is available.


I read DoD almost a year ago. I've forgotten so much of the previous volumes that I think it's probably a good idea to have everything fresh when I finish it. I've waited exactly 12 years for tCG. Taking maybe 1-2 months to savour the experience and reread prior to finishing it is, I think, pretty reasonable. Whether DoD is one book or the first half of one book is irrelevant. It was a huge chore to read.

View PostKanese S, on 01 June 2011 - 06:02 AM, said:

I would have been fine with MORE of the newer characters, actually. More Sinter and Kisswhere, more Badan Gruk, more Skanarow, etc.


Do you REALLY love those characters or are you just being contrary for the sake of it? You wouldn't, for example, prefer the focused narration of Duiker during the Chain of Dogs or Trull during MT? You actually prefer the mess of perspectives we get in DoD and the philosophical contemplations of a hodge-podge of brand new minor characters who, for all intents and purposes, receive only surface differentiation?

This post has been edited by Abberon: 13 June 2011 - 06:17 PM

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#22 User is offline   Bauchelain the Evil 

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:37 PM

@Abberon: Believe me, I didn't think much of the Snake when I read DoD ( I presume they're the new group of characters you're talking about), however there is one scene in TCG that completely redeems their entire arc. I'm sure you'll understand of what scene I'm talking when you read TCG.
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#23 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:15 PM

View PostBauchelain the Evil, on 13 June 2011 - 06:37 PM, said:

@Abberon: Believe me, I didn't think much of the Snake when I read DoD ( I presume they're the new group of characters you're talking about), however there is one scene in TCG that completely redeems their entire arc. I'm sure you'll understand of what scene I'm talking when you read TCG.


There was a scene in DoD where the girl leading the snake has a magic rap battle with the Quitters and I started to get where they were going with that plot then. I think it's an example of SE's talent to keep things vague/mysterious and then give them purpose at the end. I still think it was over-written but I can see its GOING somewhere.

My big concern with DoD was the new soldiers that were introduced and how many perspectives we got from them of the exact same thing. I think SE does a better job when he gives us fewer perspectives of the same setting like in DG, MoI and MT. Why do we need a dozen different pov's for the same long march into the wasteland? Was one, or two, or even 3 not enough? It feels redundant and doesn't lend well to interesting reading.

Also, I hope beyond hope that he was going somewhere with Hetan's hobbling and Tool and that Olar Ethil and Setoc etc actually have something to do with the end. Reading those sections was brutally dark but I couldn't help but feel detached. I really didn't find it interesting.
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#24 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:22 PM

View PostAbberon, on 13 June 2011 - 06:16 PM, said:

Do you REALLY love those characters or are you just being contrary for the sake of it? You wouldn't, for example, prefer the focused narration of Duiker during the Chain of Dogs or Trull during MT? You actually prefer the mess of perspectives we get in DoD and the philosophical contemplations of a hodge-podge of brand new minor characters who, for all intents and purposes, receive only surface differentiation?

Yes, I do. I eventually came to like the Bonehunters as a group more than the Bridgeburners as well. I'm not being contrary just for the sake if it. You seem to have trouble with the idea that someone really really enjoys something that you don't, or really likes characters that you don't, or likes a writing style that you don't. You say they receive only "surface differentiation." Maybe that's how things appear to you, but whatever, I'm not you, so I can like what I damn well like. You are not the objective arbiter of what makes good writing that you heavily imply yourself to be in your posts. I don't quite understand your dislike for Erikson's later works, but it's not my problem, you can like or dislike whatever you want. I'm not going to stop loving the ending volumes of The Malazan Book of the Fallen just because you tell me I shouldn't like them.
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#25 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 09:35 PM

You can like whatever you please, though I'm completely surprised/confused how you can possibly prefer DoD over really anything that's come before.

The difference between you and I, however, is that I don't enter every single thread you post in just to chime in with, "I disagree with Kanese 100%". I also don't get bent out and upset if you disagree with me. I don't take it personally, which is really how you seem to take my criticism of SE's later work. I assure you, when I say that I didn't like it, my opinion is echoed by MANY MANY MANY people. Even saying that got you and others worked up and all of the sudden I was labelled as improperly pretending to represent the world outside of this forum. Wow. I implore you, go out and actually read some DoD reviews outside of this forum. There are MANY, which you'll find immediately, that say almost exactly what I and others do.

MBotF is already one of the tougher reads out there. A lot of people thought that GotM, DG, MoI and the other earlier books were scatter-brained and long-winded, which turned them off and made them give up or not bother. What do you suppose they'd think of TTH or DoD, if even dedicated 10+ year fans get annoyed and bored with his writing???

This post has been edited by Abberon: 13 June 2011 - 09:37 PM

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#26 User is offline   Trull's son 

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 11:24 PM

It took me a while, reading through this thread, to pick up on some of the hostility. I can understand where the Abb's coming from.
The Marine storyline in DoD was really boring my first read through. I forgot the individual traits of the various marines (some which have been explored earlier in the series, but hard to remember in the grand scheme of things), and so each time they served as PoVs I would read them as though each were the same person. And really, many of them shared the same feelings about their situation, and, mixed with the philosophizing, it resulted in a slow, dreary, and somewhat repetitive first half (maybe even 3/4) of a book.
After reading it a second time, I found this to be less of a deterrent. I read through the previous novels in such a time that I could remember the quirks and individual characteristics of those Marines. It livened things up a tad. Still though, none can deny it was slow.
The snake -- the SNAKE -- what a terrible time that was throughout the first read (and to be honest, the second read was only somewhat better). It was more off putting that the change of continent and the full cast of new characters that we saw in Midnight Tides. The difference is that MT turned out to be great once I decided to sit back and enjoy the new area (still somewhat irritated about the lack of Malazan presence). DoD did not make me feel as though the time I invested in reading the snake was well spent in any way. It was boring, plain and simple (for me). However, I would say that after TCG, I can definitely look at the snake in a better light (though in no way did it pay off like MT did for me).
I can agree that perhaps focused approach would have been more enjoyable. As it is, there were many other things (like huge info dumps) that made DoD an enjoyable read for me, and MBotF is the best there is in the Fantasy genre to date.
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#27 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 02:16 AM

View PostAbberon, on 13 June 2011 - 09:35 PM, said:

You can like whatever you please, though I'm completely surprised/confused how you can possibly prefer DoD over really anything that's come before.

The difference between you and I, however, is that I don't enter every single thread you post in just to chime in with, "I disagree with Kanese 100%". I also don't get bent out and upset if you disagree with me. I don't take it personally, which is really how you seem to take my criticism of SE's later work. I assure you, when I say that I didn't like it, my opinion is echoed by MANY MANY MANY people. Even saying that got you and others worked up and all of the sudden I was labelled as improperly pretending to represent the world outside of this forum. Wow. I implore you, go out and actually read some DoD reviews outside of this forum. There are MANY, which you'll find immediately, that say almost exactly what I and others do.

MBotF is already one of the tougher reads out there. A lot of people thought that GotM, DG, MoI and the other earlier books were scatter-brained and long-winded, which turned them off and made them give up or not bother. What do you suppose they'd think of TTH or DoD, if even dedicated 10+ year fans get annoyed and bored with his writing???


I like DoD and TCG over some of the earlier volumes. I think of them together. As said before, I purposely delayed reading DoD until I could just pick up its second half. I started reading TCG the day after I finished DoD.

The difference is that when I don't like something, I just say that I don't like it. You, on the other hand, put it down and act as if it's somehow objectively bad, and look down upon those who like something you don't. You keep referring to these many many people. It's basically the bullshit tactic of using "many argue" before your own opinion to give it the illusion of broad support.

And you keep acting as if it even matters to me if many people agree with you. Why should I give a damn?

If these huge numbers of people you supposedly represent think that the books are "scatter-brained and long-winded," then they can choose not to read them. No one's forcing them to.

You accuse me of following you around. That's a bunch of crap. We're both n00bs, but I was already merrily posting away when you came into some of the threads I was posting in or reading and started posting a bunch of stuff I disagree with. I'm not going to hold back my opinions because you have some paranoid fantasy that you're important enough to follow around. Gumble I am not.
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#28 User is offline   Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast 

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:40 AM

I'd just like to say that I'm baffled as to why the last two posts on page 1 have neg rep. Is Abberon neg repping people, now, just because they don't have exactly the same opinion as him?
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#29 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:44 AM

View PostJade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast, on 14 June 2011 - 06:40 AM, said:

I'd just like to say that I'm baffled as to why the last two posts on page 1 have neg rep. Is Abberon neg repping people, now, just because they don't have exactly the same opinion as him?


Orly?

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#30 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:50 AM

Sigh...now this is getting ridiculous. All this back and forth is doing nothing but generating hostility, especially as we're now getting onto personal attacks. Abberon has his opinion, Kanese, and you have yours, and since it seems neither of you will change that opinion, let's just drop it, ok? Agree to disagree and move on.
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#31 User is online   QuickTidal 

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 05:07 PM

On Topic:

My thoughts have always been that Erikson sometimes adds characters that have a means to an end, but that end may be smaller than others. They exist because they would exist. Where other books about large armies might concentrate only on a smattering of them throughout the narrative and fleshing them out utterly and completely, I feel that Erikson gives his series scope by having new characters, even in the final volume, some of which we get small bits about who they are through their appearances, but overall they aren't meant to be much more than they are. They exist because they WOULD exist. So instead of saying "Nameless, featureless soldier One and Two stood outside the command tent while the big named characters discussed events inside" we get "Joe Badass and his friend Kenny Helmutboy discussing how tired they are and various things about the coming apocalypse and their place in it"

For me, such a narrative character string is a GREAT thing and really adds flesh to the story, but for others it becomes annoying...though I'm not sure why. I guess maybe they want featureless soldiers at the tent entrance who they don't want to care about?

Subjective as a whole, but to me I've always admired Erikson's skill at such smaller characters.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 14 June 2011 - 05:08 PM

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#32 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 02:51 PM

View PostJade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast, on 14 June 2011 - 06:40 AM, said:

I'd just like to say that I'm baffled as to why the last two posts on page 1 have neg rep. Is Abberon neg repping people, now, just because they don't have exactly the same opinion as him?


The negative rep for Orlion was a total accident and I'm not sure if I can take it back? As for negatively repping people for disagreeing, I'm not sure if you're the best person to be criticizing me for it.
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#33 User is offline   King Bear 

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 02:59 PM

View PostAbberon, on 16 June 2011 - 02:51 PM, said:

The negative rep for Orlion was a total accident and I'm not sure if I can take it back?


I've accidentally neg repped people when going to pos rep them. I think the etiquette is to pos rep them in a couple of random posts of theirs, with a message explaining the neg rep was accidental.
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#34 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 03:16 PM

Thanks Future Warrior.

I wrote another response to Kanese etc but then deleted it in light of what MTS said. I will try to avoid those sorts of pointless arguments in the future, although I do feel that there are several posters here who seem to take it personally when I criticize SE's writing, as if somehow he couldn't have possibly slipped up writing a 10000 page epic at the pace he did. It's rather funny how many times I've been negatively repped by the same 3 people.
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#35 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 06:23 PM

It might have less to do with your personal opinion and more to do with the fact that you keep conflating your dislike of SE's style and subject matter choices in later books with the notion that SE "slipped up". There's very little to nothing about TTH, for instance, that wasn't absolutely deliberate. That is by far the least appealing facet of the arguments you've been having. Your disagreement is fine, but you continously meet people with downright skepticism whenever they say they enjoyed (immensely) the latter books as much or more than the earlier books. It comes off, at least, as if you're trying to have it both ways.

I don't know who's been neg repping you, and true, if it's purely for differences of opinion that can be pretty sucky...but just as an example, and I don't remember it verbatim, there was a post where you in a roundabout way accused a poster (Kanese S perhaps?) of feigning his opinion solely to disagree with you personally. I'm not telling anyone to do anything, but I can at least understand why he might neg rep you for that one post. Nobody here, I've found, including the most frequent regulars, has been afraid or even particularly hesitant to critique SE for the things they don't like. And of course there's lots of different people here, but I would just advise against the assumption that you're talking to "fanboys" as opposed to simply fans, like yourself. If that's not an assumption you're making, my apologies.
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#36 User is online   QuickTidal 

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:48 PM

View Postworrywort, on 16 June 2011 - 06:23 PM, said:

It might have less to do with your personal opinion and more to do with the fact that you keep conflating your dislike of SE's style and subject matter choices in later books with the notion that SE "slipped up". There's very little to nothing about TTH, for instance, that wasn't absolutely deliberate. That is by far the least appealing facet of the arguments you've been having. Your disagreement is fine, but you continously meet people with downright skepticism whenever they say they enjoyed (immensely) the latter books as much or more than the earlier books. It comes off, at least, as if you're trying to have it both ways.

I don't know who's been neg repping you, and true, if it's purely for differences of opinion that can be pretty sucky...but just as an example, and I don't remember it verbatim, there was a post where you in a roundabout way accused a poster (Kanese S perhaps?) of feigning his opinion solely to disagree with you personally. I'm not telling anyone to do anything, but I can at least understand why he might neg rep you for that one post. Nobody here, I've found, including the most frequent regulars, has been afraid or even particularly hesitant to critique SE for the things they don't like. And of course there's lots of different people here, but I would just advise against the assumption that you're talking to "fanboys" as opposed to simply fans, like yourself. If that's not an assumption you're making, my apologies.


*puts up hand*

I own up to neg repping him (twice), when he did so to me for simply disagreeing with him and telling it like it is about the way the forum would reply to him the way he worded stuff. Then I did it again a day or so later because he hit me back on a random post simply cause he was pissed, the second neg rep had me mentioning that using rep in such a fashion would not be the best way to keep the mods happy. I'll freely admit that the second neg repping should have been a PM instead to let him know not to behave as he was...my bad on that, and I own up to the mistake in judgement there.

If you walk around Abberon's posts for the last few days it's a study in what can totally (whether it be on purpose or not) be construed as thinly veiled contempt to others in response to people calling him on the way he was wording his posts and how they were interpreted.

My advice to Abberon is to stop reacting like we killed your kitten, expect folk to respond (sometimes vehemently) if you make broad statements condemning one thing or another, and most of all back them up. Saying that we didn't "get what you meant" or that "we took you too literally" is not good enough. Say what you mean, or explain it better if there's going to be a problem. Making a statement like ASOIAF has better character development than MBOTF, and then not really backing it up....on a board that is made for MBOTF fans...is deliberately provocative, and was bound to engender the responses you got. End of story. Later on when you started to backtrack and re-word what you said we started to get you didn't mean what you said. That's cool, but by then you'd already started flinging neg rep for no reason other than being Pissed.

I'm certainly no strange to saying the wrong things, or flying off the handle. I TOTALLY do that, but a few minutes later when I calm down, or someone calls me on it I am fully willing to stand up and say, "yeah, okay I effed up."

I think we should all move on as I am sure Abberon has useful things to contribute and he just fucked up for a few days. We've all done it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 16 June 2011 - 07:49 PM

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#37 User is offline   Trull's son 

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 02:41 AM

View PostQuickTidal, on 16 June 2011 - 07:48 PM, said:

I think we should all move on as I am sure Abberon has useful things to contribute and he just fucked up for a few days. We've all done it.


Ahah, so true. My very first post on these forums (the old ones, actually) was neg rep'd and I totally deserved it. Out of sheer stubbornness did I refuse to make another account.
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#38 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 09:42 PM

QuickTidal I got negatively rep'd by like 5 people in the first post when I compared MBotF to ASoIF. I said nothing inflammatory. I prefaced the whole statement by saying ASOIF was more character-driven than MBotF and VERY quickly afterwords explained my poor choice of words, what I meant and mentioned it as a STRENGTH to MBotF rather than a criticism. I LIKE how Quick Ben is always kept a mystery and I don't know much about it. It makes moments like the end of DoD MUCH cooler. These books feed off the legend and mystery SE creates.

Some people took my poor choice of words for what it was and accepted (some even agreeing) with my explanation. You and others, on the other hand, decided to make characterizations of me and discredit me as a poster. You, specifically, painted me as a stubborn little fool too proud to admit I was wrong.

Also, I'm not sure what comments like, "My advice to Abberon is to stop reacting like we killed your kitten" are meant to achieve if you're trying to take the mature road here.

Back to the thread topic sort of, I find it baffling how poorly some people here take criticism of the series. I strongly feel that DoD, for example, was excessively long-winded, had too many redundant perspectives and was not nearly as well written as all 8 previous volumes. It's baffling to me that people can't accept this criticism, or at least understand where it's coming from. I'm stunned that people actually believe that SE meticulously planned the whole story of a 10000 page epic back in 1999 and that there were no mistakes, omissions or course corrections throughout. Considering he wrote at a pace of around 1000 pages/year, I'm surprised that people here maintain that every single paragraph that he wrote was a finely tuned art,that none of it was long-winded rambling and that there were no editing oversights.

From what I've been able to gather, it does seem to be the most poorly received book of the series, and some of us have brought up reasons why here.

This post has been edited by Abberon: 17 June 2011 - 09:43 PM

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#39 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 10:17 PM

View PostAbberon, on 17 June 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

QuickTidal I got negatively rep'd by like 5 people in the first post when I compared MBotF to ASoIF. I said nothing inflammatory. I prefaced the whole statement by saying ASOIF was more character-driven than MBotF and VERY quickly afterwords explained my poor choice of words, what I meant and mentioned it as a STRENGTH to MBotF rather than a criticism. I LIKE how Quick Ben is always kept a mystery and I don't know much about it. It makes moments like the end of DoD MUCH cooler. These books feed off the legend and mystery SE creates.

Some people took my poor choice of words for what it was and accepted (some even agreeing) with my explanation. You and others, on the other hand, decided to make characterizations of me and discredit me as a poster. You, specifically, painted me as a stubborn little fool too proud to admit I was wrong.

Also, I'm not sure what comments like, "My advice to Abberon is to stop reacting like we killed your kitten" are meant to achieve if you're trying to take the mature road here.

Back to the thread topic sort of, I find it baffling how poorly some people here take criticism of the series. I strongly feel that DoD, for example, was excessively long-winded, had too many redundant perspectives and was not nearly as well written as all 8 previous volumes. It's baffling to me that people can't accept this criticism, or at least understand where it's coming from. I'm stunned that people actually believe that SE meticulously planned the whole story of a 10000 page epic back in 1999 and that there were no mistakes, omissions or course corrections throughout. Considering he wrote at a pace of around 1000 pages/year, I'm surprised that people here maintain that every single paragraph that he wrote was a finely tuned art,that none of it was long-winded rambling and that there were no editing oversights.

From what I've been able to gather, it does seem to be the most poorly received book of the series, and some of us have brought up reasons why here.


This I see as three separate arguments. The first being your criticism of DoD; the second being a criticism of the series as a whole and the third as a criticism of how people interpret your criticism on the forum are kind of intertwined.

First thing first, DoD is probably one of the most polarizing books in terms of opinion even on this own forum. Amongst the friends I have who read the series not on here, they found it to be overly depressing. Repetitive characters and characterization (all the Marine's are the same brooding person), the Snake was nonsensical and served no purpose in the book, it's too philosophical, are some of the more common criticisms. Fair enough. I happen to disagree, and DoD is my favorite book in the series, but I can recognize how some might not like that stuff. It is dark. It is long-winded. It is depressing. And, I think that fits perfectly well. Not all soldiers are Nietzsche as they are portrayed here, but if I can dismiss lizards so technologically advanced they create flying mountains or gods constantly interfering with the world, I don't find it hard to stay within my realm of suspension of disbelief that there are philosopher-soldiers en masse in the Bonehunters.

Secondly, did Erikson make mistakes? I don't think you'll hear a counter argument to a statement that the time-line is fucked on this forum. It's so screwed the mantra has become we simply won't talk about it. It's the elephant in the room that everybody just ignores. On the other hand, competing events such as the Tattersail-Tayschrenn recollection of Pale can be adequately debated in that this is a written history. And, anyone who has studied history knows that not only is it written by the victor's and is biased in such a way, witnesses to the same event or persons involved in the same event can be on totally opposite ends of the spectrum in how they understand an event happened.

Yet, you then take that willingness to argue and seemingly write off arguments as being fanboyish hand-waving of Erikson's mistakes. For instance, your position on the Pale incident, from what I recall, is steadfastly that Tattersail was correct and Tayschrenn is lying. Many of us here would argue that that is perhaps correct, but that there is another interpretation. Your insistence that the other is not correct is just as flawed position as those you accuse of hand-waving errors. It's your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but not all opinions are exclusively right.

Further, equating the forum as a whole as some sort of monolith out to disagree with you is both antagonistic to those who will listen to your arguments and to those who genuinely disagree. Further magnifying said situation by the constant mentioning of "others" who "agree with your position" just makes it worse. Stand on your own feet, or link those arguments so that they too can be argued against. I have a feeling you think you are raging against the machine, when frankly, 95% of the machine doesn't really care other than seeing a shit storm in active threads with one common denominator. And, that's just not good for the forum as it turns new members and possible members away.

Tl;dr: This is an Erikson fan-forum. Criticism generally will be met with disagreement. I think that is to be expected. Some react with more vitriol than others, and you fell victim to some of the latter. That is not to say we do not tolerate criticism. Fair criticisms are generally noted as being fair, but one's mileage may vary as opinions often tend to be in disagreement in your situation. Changing goalposts, arguing you were interpreted incorrectly, or that the forum is out to get you will only take away from your legitimate criticisms while increasing the reciprocal antagonism with those who you are having vociferous disagreements with as everybody likes to be seen as an individual poster with an individual opinion.

I don't think you are a troll, and I think you've said enough positive things about the series that anybody who would be simply reacting to perceived initial trolling has been proven wrong. But, if you are going to criticize, be prepared for strong rebuttal in some cases.

Keep posting, it's good to have people around who disagree, even if I disagree with them. Different perspectives are good.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 17 June 2011 - 11:07 PM

Size matters not.
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Posted 17 June 2011 - 10:51 PM

Agreed 100% with HD. Also, I'd just like to add, and this is more to do with the text rather than simply "piling on," so hopefully you'll consider this on topic rather than more meta-posting discussion, though it might straddle the line.

But when someone uses a term like long-winded to describe DoD, I don't necessarily disagree with the word, but merely the negative connotation. I know that DoD can get long-winded, and I love it. I absolutely enjoy all of the diversions, digressions, inner monologues, sitting around, boredom, doldrums, etc. of the marines. The Snake is among my favorite storylines in the entire series. I like the repetetive themes throughout; it seems less like simple repetition and more like a refrain. This is a tale, in part, of people bleeding/starving/despairing to death, and many of them are singing the same song. I also enjoy how much influence Catch-22 seemed to have on the Bonehunters. Maybe a bit of MASH, too, which could likewise get a bit preachy, but in a way that I'm generally simpatico with. I don't know if either of those were actual influences, but they're touchstones I relate to the experience.

Plus, not that I'd advise it, but it takes only a quick glance at some of my own previous posts to see how much I enjoy long-windedness and rambling, even stream of consciousness. :apt2:
I admire anyone who could infuse such passion, compassion, and ultimately purpose to the threads SE establishes, whether they eventually fizzle out or lead to something "epic" so to speak. I like it all. And as far as I'm concerned, he's earned our patience already anyway. I don't expect that to be a universal truth, especially for those who treat novels they buy like any other product purchase (ie everything has to "work" how I expect it to, since I paid for it).

I'd also mention how much I love the Mhybe, and it's absolutely true, but I think more than just Abberon would consider that sheer contrarionism.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 17 June 2011 - 10:56 PM

They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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