[anothevilbadguy]

I do get what where you are coming from, but it has become ever clearer as the series has gone on that ascendancy is less certain than that. That I think is in part due to SE coming to become more certain of the concept.

Mappo is protecting Icarium from his true nature, not ascendancy. He is already capable of great destruction, and as detailed he has previously caused great destruction. So, he is already capable, Mappo just tries to keep him in his uncertain forgetful state so he won't do worse than kill a few D'ivers. He has the ability to be one of the most powerful beings on Wu, when he is unleashed.

[anothevilbadguy]

lobo the wolfman, on 10 April 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

Caladan Brood is an ascendent, yet has no role in the Deck of Dragons that we know of. Nor do Scabandari Bloodeye, Silchas Ruin, Menandore, Sheltatha Lore and Sukul Ankhadu yet they are all ascendants (if you can provide quotes to prove me wrong, then i will stand corrected). WhiskeyJack was not an ascendent yet held the position of Mason of Death, Kalam was also marked as the Herald of Death in Dead House Gates l seem to recall ( the reading at the small guard house).

Holding a place in the Deck of Dragons does not mean one is necessarily a ascendant, it means that person has a role to play in the near future, the Deck is used to tell fortunes after all. Being ascendant doses not mean that they would have a place in the Deck, but they are more likely to as their actions causes more ripples in life then a normal person would.

Some of those guys do have places in the Tiles, Ruin certainly. And Brood has strong links to one of the unaligned cards, the one Burn is associated with. However, it is certainly true that not all ascendants are even linked to the deck, or tiles.
There is a difference in having a sanctioned place in the deck, e.g. Rake as Knight of Darkness, and just being marked, e.g. Kalam. Having a card, or rather a official place in a House does normally indicate ascendancy, although it is not certain, just more that you are unlikely to be given a place if you aren't ascendant.

[lobo the wolfman]

anothevilbadguy, on 10 April 2010 - 11:10 AM, said:

lobo the wolfman, on 10 April 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

Caladan Brood is an ascendent, yet has no role in the Deck of Dragons that we know of. Nor do Scabandari Bloodeye, Silchas Ruin, Menandore, Sheltatha Lore and Sukul Ankhadu yet they are all ascendants (if you can provide quotes to prove me wrong, then i will stand corrected). WhiskeyJack was not an ascendent yet held the position of Mason of Death, Kalam was also marked as the Herald of Death in Dead House Gates l seem to recall ( the reading at the small guard house).

Holding a place in the Deck of Dragons does not mean one is necessarily a ascendant, it means that person has a role to play in the near future, the Deck is used to tell fortunes after all. Being ascendant doses not mean that they would have a place in the Deck, but they are more likely to as their actions causes more ripples in life then a normal person would.

Some of those guys do have places in the Tiles, Ruin certainly. And Brood has strong links to one of the unaligned cards, the one Burn is associated with. However, it is certainly true that not all ascendants are even linked to the deck, or tiles.
There is a difference in having a sanctioned place in the deck, e.g. Rake as Knight of Darkness, and just being marked, e.g. Kalam. Having a card, or rather a official place in a House does normally indicate ascendancy, although it is not certain, just more that you are unlikely to be given a place if you aren't ascendant.

Can you provide the quote where it says Ruin holds a place in the deck? or Caladan Brood for that matter? Brood holds the hammer that can wake up Burn but is not know in the Deck. Ruin may (95%) certain have a place in the Holds, but that is an old system, on a continent that hasn't evolved with the rest of the world.

Talamandas had the sanctioned place of magi of HH death, Iskural Pust had the same position in Shadow, yet neither on them are ascendant. Baudin is the Solider of Death at one point yet is not ascendant. The point l was trying to make was that having a sanctioned place in the Deck doesn't make a person ascendant. It is just more likely that they would be due to the nature of being ascendant, that their actions causes more ripples in life then a normal person would.

[anothevilbadguy]

I did say Tiles with Ruin, I wasn't contradicting you, just adding another layer. But the Holds and Tiles aren't really the same thing, nor are the Houses and Deck, but due to the fact they are more constraining does suggest they are more closely linked.

And again I didn't say Brood holds a place just he is very strongly linked, in so far as being the strongest active embodiment of Obelisk (?), i.e. Burn's card. There is also another point on Brood, but I am not sure if it is a spoiler so:

Spoiler

It is commented on in one of the books (think BH) the being a specific Warlord card, which represents Brood

Quote

Talamandas had the sanctioned place of magi of HH death, Iskural Pust had the same position in Shadow, yet neither on them are ascendant. Baudin is the Solider of Death at one point yet is not ascendant. The point l was trying to make was that having a sanctioned place in the Deck doesn't make a person ascendant. It is just more likely that they would be due to the nature of being ascendant, that their actions causes more ripples in life then a normal person would.

Yeah, I agree with this. However, I think Baudin is pretty much ascended now, being annealed in Thyr etc.

[lobo the wolfman]

Brood is known as the Warlord, but l can't remember about there being a card for the postion, but l could be wrong, and K'rul is the aspected by the Obelisk in the Deck.

Sorry didn't see that you where taking about Tile's and not the Desk.

[anothevilbadguy]

lobo the wolfman, on 10 April 2010 - 12:12 PM, said:

Brood is known as the Warlord, but l can't remember about there being a card for the postion, but l could be wrong, and K'rul is the aspected by the Obelisk in the Deck.

In the MOI and GOM glossaries it says Burn is Obelisk. But anyway Burn is certainly one of the unaligned cards.

Spoiler

There is a card, I think in T'amber's deck, but there is certainly a Warlord card. Though to be fair when i originally commented about him, I had sort of forgotten about that.

Easy mistake to make with Tiles/Deck, my lack of elegance in forming sentences probably doesn't help.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Vesper, on 10 April 2010 - 08:15 AM, said:

Edit: also, though I was somewhat off-put by you ordering me to put the hinting material in spoiler tags, I realized that you were correct in that it could be a spoiler here, so I slapped some tags around it.

I'm a little paranoid about that particular spoiler as I had it spoiled for me. Also had Whiskeyjack spoiled for me.

[Sinisdar Toste]

anothevilbadguy, on 10 April 2010 - 02:01 PM, said:

lobo the wolfman, on 10 April 2010 - 12:12 PM, said:

Brood is known as the Warlord, but l can't remember about there being a card for the postion, but l could be wrong, and K'rul is the aspected by the Obelisk in the Deck.

In the MOI and GOM glossaries it says Burn is Obelisk. But anyway Burn is certainly one of the unaligned cards.

Spoiler

There is a card, I think in T'amber's deck, but there is certainly a Warlord card. Though to be fair when i originally commented about him, I had sort of forgotten about that.

Easy mistake to make with Tiles/Deck, my lack of elegance in forming sentences probably doesn't help.

that spoiler is not exactly true.

big tBH spoiler:

Spoiler

t'ambers deck has the two new houses. chains and war

war is the one of interest here and these are it's attendants.

lords of war (togg and fanderay)
hunter (treach)
guardians of the dead (the bridgeburners)
army and soldier (one card with two names)
life slayer (icarium)
death slayer (the crippled god) (icarium's counterpoint, of sorts, which i think is a very interesting juxtaposition)

so no, there is no warlord card.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 10 April 2010 - 06:44 PM

[Vesper]

lobo the wolfman, on 10 April 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

Caladan Brood is an ascendent, yet has no role in the Deck of Dragons that we know of. Nor do Scabandari Bloodeye, Silchas Ruin, Menandore, Sheltatha Lore and Sukul Ankhadu yet they are all ascendants (if you can provide quotes to prove me wrong, then i will stand corrected). WhiskeyJack was not an ascendent yet held the position of Mason of Death, Kalam was also marked as the Herald of Death in Dead House Gates l seem to recall ( the reading at the small guard house).

Holding a place in the Deck of Dragons does not mean one is necessarily a ascendant, it means that person has a role to play in the near future, the Deck is used to tell fortunes after all. Being ascendant doses not mean that they would have a place in the Deck, but they are more likely to as their actions causes more ripples in life then a normal person would.

Brood is the embodiment of Tennes according to his own admission in MoI. This makes him a warren, which is altogether beyond the Deck of Dragons.

I had previously suggested that being in the Deck of Dragons was required to be an ascendant, though being ascendant was not required to be in the Deck of Dragons. There are many, many unspecified cards in the deck at this point that I admit in my slightly-sleepy state last night I may have gone from assuming applied to those other players to believing such, so I may entirely be wrong. I will look for quotes applicable to this through reading again.

[anothevilbadguy]

Vesper, on 10 April 2010 - 08:01 PM, said:

lobo the wolfman, on 10 April 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

Caladan Brood is an ascendent, yet has no role in the Deck of Dragons that we know of. Nor do Scabandari Bloodeye, Silchas Ruin, Menandore, Sheltatha Lore and Sukul Ankhadu yet they are all ascendants (if you can provide quotes to prove me wrong, then i will stand corrected). WhiskeyJack was not an ascendent yet held the position of Mason of Death, Kalam was also marked as the Herald of Death in Dead House Gates l seem to recall ( the reading at the small guard house).

Holding a place in the Deck of Dragons does not mean one is necessarily a ascendant, it means that person has a role to play in the near future, the Deck is used to tell fortunes after all. Being ascendant doses not mean that they would have a place in the Deck, but they are more likely to as their actions causes more ripples in life then a normal person would.

Brood is the embodiment of Tennes according to his own admission in MoI. This makes him a warren, which is altogether beyond the Deck of Dragons.

I had previously suggested that being in the Deck of Dragons was required to be an ascendant, though being ascendant was not required to be in the Deck of Dragons. There are many, many unspecified cards in the deck at this point that I admit in my slightly-sleepy state last night I may have gone from assuming applied to those other players to believing such, so I may entirely be wrong. I will look for quotes applicable to this through reading again.

There are plenty of ascendants, and Gods, not in the deck. Or at least that we have seen no reference too. You don't need to be in the deck to be an ascendant, it just gives you a more formalised type of power.

There is reference to a Warlord Card, wish I could remember exactly where. And anyway my original comment was more of his embodiment/ close link with Burn meaning he was still sort of related to the Deck anyway.

[D'rek]

1. There is no precise definition of Ascendancy, so none of you can say who is or is not an ascendant. It's a loose term.

2. The Deck of Dragons can have whatever cards someone wants in it. Adepts of the Deck can add their own custom cards to represent whatever they want. And the Deck itself can generate new cards (or really old cards) without the Adept even being aware that its going to happen. Furthermore, while many of the titles of the cards of the Deck match up with known positions in the High Houses, a card that comes up in a Deck reading may have nothing to do with the person who inhabits that position in the High House. People can hold positions in a High House, but they don't "hold a position in the Deck". Don't read too much into the Deck readings, most of them are extremely context-focused and mostly depict characters who are neither ascended nor members of a High House, but does so using titles from the High Houses in order to predict these mortals' motivations and actions. AND THAT'S IT!

^^if you haven't read past MT then that's all just my own opinion and there's no evidence for it

Spoiler

yet

3. Don't make the mistake of assuming that all the warrens, cards and gods are in the lists from the glossaries. There's plenty of gods outside the High Houses Pantheon (ie: Fener who had an entire widespread religion, and tons of localized gods like Grallin), plenty of warrens unlisted in the glossary (ie Poliel's Warren, which Envy looted in MoI - probably a seperate manifestation of a listed one, but nevertheless), and yeah cards that were previously never heard of (like when Shadow is ref'd as appearing, and the appearnce of the HoC. Spoilers for the even better examples).

[Hood's Legacy]

anothevilbadguy, on 10 April 2010 - 10:30 AM, said:

Vesper, on 10 April 2010 - 10:17 AM, said:

anothevilbadguy, on 10 April 2010 - 09:45 AM, said:

Icarium (and Mappo) are ascendants, Icarium certainly is.

No, they are not. Read DG again when they meet Iskaral Pust.

As for the rest, I'm going to read MT again for quotes as soon as I'm done writing my exams.

No they are are, you just have a misunderstanding of what ascendancy is, especially considering the fluid nature of it. Icarium is one of the most ascendty ascendants. And you really cant trust Pust. I have read all of the books multiple times, it is very clear Icarium is an ascendant in any normal use of the term.

Icarium's a Jhag. Hence, he's really long lived. His sole line of ascendancy would be rage (if it is considered as one of the basic attributes) besides the 12 defined till date.(Source: MT, Udinaas and Feather Witch in the undead Meckros city). Icarium's definitely a genius to have constructed such elaborate schemes and devices for measuring time all over Wu. If genius and workmanship were attributes, then he dfinitely might be their patron...

[Eispeis]

Icarium is the Mason of High House Rage


They are not ascendants as far as I can tell. They are "blessed" with longivety and certainly possess extra-normal powers, but they have not ascended as such. I don't know if Jhags and Trell have naturally long lifespans, wheter this is due to the NO's influence.

DoD Spoiler

Spoiler

As of the end of DoD I would assume that Icarium ascends, if he's not devoured completely that is.

[ShadowRaven]

This might be slightly off topic but I've always wondered about one thing: almost all ascendants seem to be characterized by a certain warren/realm. If they do not live in it, they can travel to it or use its power. For example, Rake uses Kurald Galain, and Paran is (IMO) like a human Azath house, etc.



However, there is one exception to this that I can think of (spoilers from RG, RotCG, and Tth at least):

Spoiler

Are there any other confirmed ascendants with no access to a warren/realm of their own besides Dassem? I remember Gessler and Stormy being referred as on the verge of ascending, but not yet quite there.

P.S. Or is Dassem even truly an ascendant? His alter ego as Dessembrae and is age/combat proves would certainly suggest so, although even Trull was able to hold off Icarium while not an ascendant

[worry]

ShadowRaven, on 17 June 2010 - 08:53 AM, said:

This might be slightly off topic but I've always wondered about one thing: almost all ascendants seem to be characterized by a certain warren/realm. If they do not live in it, they can travel to it or use its power. For example, Rake uses Kurald Galain, and Paran is (IMO) like a human Azath house, etc.



However, there is one exception to this that I can think of (spoilers from RG, RotCG, and Tth at least):

Spoiler

Are there any other confirmed ascendants with no access to a warren/realm of their own besides Dassem? I remember Gessler and Stormy being referred as on the verge of ascending, but not yet quite there.

P.S. Or is Dassem even truly an ascendant? His alter ego as Dessembrae and is age/combat proves would certainly suggest so, although even Trull was able to hold off Icarium while not an ascendant

Spoiler

As far as I'm aware, his warren is Hood's Path. He just happens to have personally forsaken Hood. Even when he does appear as Dessembrae, I presume there's quite a bit of resentment (perhaps reluctance?) in him and no wish to honor Hood when he kills.

[D'rek]

Hood, on 15 June 2010 - 12:33 PM, said:

anothevilbadguy, on 10 April 2010 - 10:30 AM, said:

Vesper, on 10 April 2010 - 10:17 AM, said:

anothevilbadguy, on 10 April 2010 - 09:45 AM, said:

Icarium (and Mappo) are ascendants, Icarium certainly is.

No, they are not. Read DG again when they meet Iskaral Pust.

As for the rest, I'm going to read MT again for quotes as soon as I'm done writing my exams.

No they are are, you just have a misunderstanding of what ascendancy is, especially considering the fluid nature of it. Icarium is one of the most ascendty ascendants. And you really cant trust Pust. I have read all of the books multiple times, it is very clear Icarium is an ascendant in any normal use of the term.

Icarium's a Jhag. Hence, he's really long lived. His sole line of ascendancy would be rage (if it is considered as one of the basic attributes) besides the 12 defined till date.(Source: MT, Udinaas and Feather Witch in the undead Meckros city). Icarium's definitely a genius to have constructed such elaborate schemes and devices for measuring time all over Wu. If genius and workmanship were attributes, then he dfinitely might be their patron...

Eispeis, on 16 June 2010 - 08:04 AM, said:

Icarium is the Mason of High House Rage


They are not ascendants as far as I can tell. They are "blessed" with longivety and certainly possess extra-normal powers, but they have not ascended as such. I don't know if Jhags and Trell have naturally long lifespans, wheter this is due to the NO's influence.

DoD Spoiler

Spoiler

As of the end of DoD I would assume that Icarium ascends, if he's not devoured completely that is.

^^ignore these two, they are trying to be funny or at the very least are just plain wrong

ShadowRaven, on 17 June 2010 - 08:53 AM, said:

This might be slightly off topic but I've always wondered about one thing: almost all ascendants seem to be characterized by a certain warren/realm. If they do not live in it, they can travel to it or use its power. For example, Rake uses Kurald Galain, and Paran is (IMO) like a human Azath house, etc.

However, there is one exception to this that I can think of (spoilers from RG, RotCG, and Tth at least):

Spoiler

Are there any other confirmed ascendants with no access to a warren/realm of their own besides Dassem? I remember Gessler and Stormy being referred as on the verge of ascending, but not yet quite there.

P.S. Or is Dassem even truly an ascendant? His alter ego as Dessembrae and is age/combat proves would certainly suggest so, although even Trull was able to hold off Icarium while not an ascendant

There are plenty of gods and ascendants who are not associated with a warren or realm (Apsalar, Gedderone, Jhess, Mowri, Oponn, the Semk God, the Seregahl, just about all the non-eleint Soletaken/D'ivers, and don't get me started on half the Elder Gods). Likewise, plenty of Ascendants and gods have multiple warrens or realms that they associate with. These associations are unavoidable because they come from a particular race or are sorcerors of a particular warren. But many are completely capable of utilizing other forms of power.

[Silencer]

ShadowRaven, on 17 June 2010 - 08:53 AM, said:

This might be slightly off topic but I've always wondered about one thing: almost all ascendants seem to be characterized by a certain warren/realm. If they do not live in it, they can travel to it or use its power. For example, Rake uses Kurald Galain, and Paran is (IMO) like a human Azath house, etc.



However, there is one exception to this that I can think of (spoilers from RG, RotCG, and Tth at least):

Spoiler

Are there any other confirmed ascendants with no access to a warren/realm of their own besides Dassem? I remember Gessler and Stormy being referred as on the verge of ascending, but not yet quite there.

P.S. Or is Dassem even truly an ascendant? His alter ego as Dessembrae and is age/combat proves would certainly suggest so, although even Trull was able to hold off Icarium while not an ascendant

And here I was thinking another Ascendancy thread wouldn't last two days. XD

Consider, though, that most ascendants we see are either former mages, members of an elder race, or gods. For Gods the link is simple and obvious - they're a God of X so they'll be aspected to X. For mages, it depends what warren(s) they used as mortals, and what they've had time to learn. For Elder Races, it's their natural racial warren, and in the case of soletaken Eleint you can add in Starvald Demelain.
The thing is, magic is the most obvious and efficacious form of power available, so why wouldn't ascendants, beings of great power, utilize warrens in their day-to-day badassery? If you have ascended without gaining or using magic, what does ascendancy grant you? At best you have someone of phenomenal skill, but they will still have magical benefits, such as longevity, great stamina or strength, and so on. The whole point of an ascendant is that they are above and beyond their mortal (or indeed, immortal) kin, which naturally involves and element of the unnatural. A further reason for aspects is of course the House system, which Paran embodies. One presumes that all ascendants who hold a...more permanent position in a House gain benefits from that House's King or Queen, such as access to their warren, so on and so forth.


As to the Tanno spirit song, and Kimloc not being able to self-ascend...you presume that ascendancy is like gaining a +5 to magic or something, when in most cases it is hardly that obvious. After all, the ascended Bridgeburner mages are not walking around like newborn Gods, are they? If Kimloc himself had ascended, not only would he have still had the T'lan Imass armies to deal with - a group feared by the Jaghut themselves - but he would have had to face Dancer and Kellanved...even pre-ascension, they killed their fair share of high-ups.

RotCG spoiler:

Spoiler

Such as the Protectress of Li Heng, someone who most likely had access to Kurald Liosan - an Elder warren barred off from the inside by Tiste Liosan.

People clearly in the upper echelons of mortal power...do you really think an ascended Kimloc would have stood any better chance against Dancer than his unascended self? Sure, you say, Kellanved got a huge power-up! He became a God of Shadow! But, for a start, Godhood is different to ascension, and your power is tied to your worshippers as a trade-off for the added efficacy, and even then you may not be the equivalent of an ascendant (see Rake, and other God-killer ascendants), and secondly we actually don't know his power prior to becoming Shadowthrone - he was even then a power to give ascendants pause.

The thing is, becoming an ascendant puts you into the power games, into the convergence trap, and so on. In the long run, such a move would have led to much greater suffering for Kimloc's people than surrendering to the Malazans peacefully, and the very fight he would have had to undertake at the outset to fend them off either way would have led to a predecessor to the Enfilade at Pale, no doubt resulting in his city being half-nuked before long.
Hell, Tayschrenn, Nightchill, Bellurdan, and A'karonys stood against Rake....what would they have done to Kimloc, ascended or not?

So while I agree that it's not clear whether it was Paran's blessing or Kimloc's Song which caused the BB's ascension, hell, it was probably both in combination, it is more than possible that Kimloc caused the ascension with his song. After all, Paran's blessing is more of what got the BB's a place in the deck...which is completely different to ascension.

[Braden]

Ah-ha! Ok, I'll throw this into the mix then.



ALL the original Bridgeburners were on the "cusp" of ascendancy even before the book series timeline started.



It is stated in HoC that the Bridgeburners were "changed" by Raraku during their trip through there to capture Kalam et al. It is further stated in HoC by Strings (Fiddler) that each of them had attained "long life", that they should have all been old and grey but had the aspect and physical form of much younger men. This did not of course extend to their attitudes and mental aspects (they still wearied of war much like an old warrior would for example).



Paran's blessing ADDED to this and at the very least kept the (then dead) Bridgeburners in a form or aspect that allowed them to become full Ascendants once the Song was completed.



I don't see this as "one thing did this", it isn't black and white. I believe the intention of Steven Erikson was that the parts of the story make the whole…each of these things added to complete the ascendancy. Without Paran's blessing its quite possible that the "dead" Bridgeburners would have moved on to Hood for example…his blessing keeping them present so that they could then receive the further blessing of the the completed song (which wasn't completed until several months AFTER their apparent deaths and internment Moonspawn as again supported by the length of march from Aren to Raraku in HoC).

Much like Icaral Pust. We see in DG that he chases and swats spiders obsessively, its not until HoC's we realise their actually his Wife!! lol Two parts...books apart = a whole story.

This post has been edited by Braden: 07 July 2010 - 03:53 PM

[Hood's Legacy]

The BB's extended lifespan account varies.Maybe it toucghened them up a bit to the verge that they are now very hardened.Take for instance, Sly Stallone and the ex-governator. You know what, all this is abssolute BS.. At one point, SE mentions something and at the other point something else which does not totally add up. No lone human being and I repeat, no lone human being can track and sift through the lives and fates of literally scores of characters in a series. If SE is actually taking into account every character, it is possible that he can forget an aspect which he introduced earlier in his subsequent treatments. Unless, there's a creative team behind all this, I do not think most of the stuff even makes sense. (Believe me, they have failed in many ways). As for SE, if he's working alone, no amount of greater respect could be accorded to a writer, but to admit that he has made us cry, laugh and some times both just by his writing. If that's not story telling, then I assure you all the cliched writings of some best selling authors (Yes, I have survived a few such novels).Hence, he's exempt of being complained at erring in not considering all aspects. (At least, for now).Also, since he is my favourite writer, I am holding off on stating anything about the varied Malazan secrets and myths until I read the tenth book.