[styrax]

hi, having read the books up to bonehunters i still dont know what being an ascendent means? Is it like a step before a god? Any help would be fine

[Bonesaw85]

Page 533 MMPB has somebodys theory on it.

[Sinisdar Toste]

ascendants are beings who have, one way or another, passed beyond their races usual restrictions. when a normal person punches someone, they break their nose. when an ascendant does it, they go through a wall. ascendants who gain worshippers become gods, but not all gods had any in between phase. however all gods are technically ascendants. think of them as people who other people can't help but notice. and be concerned.

[Silencer]

And no, Ascendants are not necessarily weaker than Gods - Gods may gain power through their worshippers, but an Ascendant is, unless proven otherwise, the equivalent of any God, especially as Gods also get drawback from being worshipped, too.
And to elaborate a bit on ST's post, just because someone is really good at what they do does not make them an Ascendant. A weapons master may be a really good swordsman, but unless he has, in some way or another, transcended the limitations of his race or cultural group, he probably isn't an Ascendant. There are other ways to Ascend, too. The entire concept is somewhat murky, and there are apparently many people who have Ascended but keep quietly to themselves.

[Hood's Legacy]

Silencer, on 03 April 2010 - 02:47 AM, said:

And no, Ascendants are not necessarily weaker than Gods - Gods may gain power through their worshippers, but an Ascendant is, unless proven otherwise, the equivalent of any God, especially as Gods also get drawback from being worshipped, too.
And to elaborate a bit on ST's post, just because someone is really good at what they do does not make them an Ascendant. A weapons master may be a really good swordsman, but unless he has, in some way or another, transcended the limitations of his race or cultural group, he probably isn't an Ascendant. There are other ways to Ascend, too. The entire concept is somewhat murky, and there are apparently many people who have Ascended but keep quietly to themselves.

From what I have seen ascendants are not neccessarrily beings who have transcended their races' limitations, but those who have become more than 'legends' in that aspect which is attributed to them. I am unaware of Kellanved's warren before he became "Shadowthrone", but now he's the master of Meanas Rashan. Also, Ganoes Paran is a nobody, but he has become one of the most powerful ascendants to date. The bridgeburners have become ascendants with their passing. All because of a Tanno spiritwalker's blessing. But was the spiritwalker an ascendant - no!!!! Hence, we see another definition here, beings who have been aspected with power. A god's power increases with her/his follower's beliefs. This does not mean that they cannot wrest power from other beings to become more powerful. Think of a being who is very cunning/bad-ass/brutal that he could kick every other ascendant's teeth in. Would he have not ascended among the ascendants????
I guess that the ascendants and gods are just the most recent examples of sentient beings who embody the epitome of their aspect's attributes..

[Vesper]

Hood, on 05 April 2010 - 11:53 AM, said:

From what I have seen ascendants are not neccessarrily beings who have transcended their races' limitations, but those who have become more than 'legends' in that aspect which is attributed to them. I am unaware of Kellanved's warren before he became "Shadowthrone", but now he's the master of Meanas Rashan. Also, Ganoes Paran is a nobody, but he has become one of the most powerful ascendants to date. The bridgeburners have become ascendants with their passing. All because of a Tanno spiritwalker's blessing. But was the spiritwalker an ascendant - no!!!! Hence, we see another definition here, beings who have been aspected with power. A god's power increases with her/his follower's beliefs. This does not mean that they cannot wrest power from other beings to become more powerful. Think of a being who is very cunning/bad-ass/brutal that he could kick every other ascendant's teeth in. Would he have not ascended among the ascendants????
I guess that the ascendants and gods are just the most recent examples of sentient beings who embody the epitome of their aspect's attributes..

It wasn't a Tanno spiritwalker who caused the Bridgeburners to ascend, it was Paran giving them all his blessing at the end of MoI. If Kimloc's song had any effect, it was secondary to the Master of the Deck absorbing the regiment into the Deck of Dragons' House of War.

Also, Icarium and Mappo are said not to be ascendants by Iskaral Pust in DG, yet Icarium could bitchslap Togg's teats off and emerge victorious from a battle royale with a dozen D'ivers sorcerers. He may be in the Deck of Dragons as the Lifestealer, but Icarium is not an ascendant.

[Uli]

I thought it was stated several times in the books that they ascended through the song of Kimloc?

[Sinisdar Toste]

Uli, on 08 April 2010 - 06:50 AM, said:

I thought it was stated several times in the books that they ascended through the song of Kimloc?

it is. but for some reason people have a problem with a tanno song being able to do that. paran's blessing didn't make them ascend, it gave them a card in the deck. he's the master of the deck, duh.

kimlocs song was powerful enough, because it was the song of the bridgburners and kimloc is the most powerful spiritwalker in all seven cities. it gave their story power.

and i've seen the argument made "durr if kimlocs song could make people ascend why didn't he make one for himself?"

1. kimloc don't get off on that ascendant tip. he's a pacifist
2. how ridiculously narcissistic would that be?
3. i'm quite sure that it does not work that way.

so really i don't get all the controversy over this matter. the song of kimloc was a thing that developed over two books and involved a conch shell, a wall of water, eerie music over the entire raraku oasis for the convergence in HoC and the awakening of raraku's ghosts, including the bridgeburners.

parans blessing was a single line in one book.

do the math.

[rhulad]

Knowing Erikson, would it surprise you if it was Parans blessing? I don't think it was although it probably didn't hurt that they now have a card in the deck.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

DoD spoiler

Spoiler

talking about whiskeyjack ascending
"Twice brought into the world of worship. Once by a tribal people and named Iskar Jarak. A bringer of wisdom, a saviour. And the other time, as the commander of a company of soldiers - promised to ascension by a song woven by a Tanno Spiritwalker. Yes, the entire company ascended upon death."

[foolio]

from BH

Spoiler

there is a long winded explanation of Parans in BH while he is talking to Hedge. He basically says that ascendancy is a natural occurance due to population preasures.

[Vesper]

Sinisdar Toste, on 08 April 2010 - 01:20 PM, said:

it is. but for some reason people have a problem with a tanno song being able to do that. paran's blessing didn't make them ascend, it gave them a card in the deck. he's the master of the deck, duh.

kimlocs song was powerful enough, because it was the song of the bridgburners and kimloc is the most powerful spiritwalker in all seven cities. it gave their story power.

and i've seen the argument made "durr if kimlocs song could make people ascend why didn't he make one for himself?"

1. kimloc don't get off on that ascendant tip. he's a pacifist
2. how ridiculously narcissistic would that be?
3. i'm quite sure that it does not work that way.

so really i don't get all the controversy over this matter. the song of kimloc was a thing that developed over two books and involved a conch shell, a wall of water, eerie music over the entire raraku oasis for the convergence in HoC and the awakening of raraku's ghosts, including the bridgeburners.

parans blessing was a single line in one book.

do the math.

I believe that this post is largely a criticism of my opinions. Please allow me to phrase my own rebuttal:

1. It is not unreasonable to believe that one who would bestow ascendancy on others would withhold it from himself. He is stated as being able to "destroy the Malazan armies ... utterly" which itself doesn't seem to be that incredible of a feat given that Anomander Rake singlehandedly devastated a fair portion of the 2nd Army in collateral damage during his exchange with Tayschrenn et. al. Not being listed as an ascendant in the highly comprehensive Dramatis Personae, one must conclude that Kimloc remains mortal. Ergo, he has not bestowed on himself the same power. This suggests that he can't, otherwise he would have used that power to defend Karakarang with even more powerful protective sorcery rather than surrender it to the Malazan army. Really... Rake was an ascendant, and he defended Moon's Spawn all on his own! It's not a question of narcissism in this case so much as it is a question of devotion. He loved his people enough to surrender the city with minimal deaths, obviously he would have taken on the burdening mantle of ascendant to protect them if he could.
2. Paran, on the other hand, is an ascendant. He has been forced into the role of Master of the Deck to negotiate order on chaos. When he inadvertently blessed the one marine who had taken to defending Silverfox, she felt the gravity of his words. Whether or not she became an ascendant as well I don't remember, but dismissing Paran's influence in this is -- in my most humble opinion -- the same as saying that plate tectonics have nothing to do with earth quakes. Every single ascendant we have met has a place in the Deck of Dragons, even if they are unaligned. K'rul is the obelisk (though that could also be Burn, depending on how you interpret GotM and MoI), Oponn has his/her own card, etc. While some non-ascendants (ex. Icarium) also have places in the Deck, it appears that being in the Deck of Dragons is a requirement to be an ascendant (or a side-effect).
3. Kimloc's song may have awakened the Bridgeburners, but there's no reason to conclude that it specifically led to their ascension. Christ, Burn's been asleep for a thousand years and K'rul was thought lost for millennia. Is it unreasonable to assume that the Bridgeburners were simply not able to appear before Kimloc's song, but already ascended (or on the very verge of it)?

Spoiler

(Point 3 cont)If you want to talk about the mathematics of literature, equate for me how a series could spend 6,000+ pages on Rake's fantastic exploits over the past several hundred thousand years and then have his sacrifice -- the most incredible thing he does in the series -- take up a fraction of that length?

(cont.) Quit pontificating and give some consideration to the stylistic reasons why a single line can influence a series. The number of words have no bearing on their gravity in the hands of a skilled author, as Erikson has consistently proven himself to be. How much emphasis was placed on the word 'bless' in MoI? Did you catch that the marine he said it offhandedly to was very nearly blown away by the impact? Maybe you forgot that the entire chapter that expounded the heroic sacrifice of the heroic company through the eyes of Paran and Ben ended with Paran very clearly and articulately saying that he gave "each and every one" of the Bridgeburners his blessing. The level of ignorance you displayed by claiming that this was anything but an earth-shattering development astounds me, good sir.

Now, let's recap:
-Paran, vested with the authority to accept or deny access to a cosmic roster of power, blesses the Bridgeburner brigade
vs.
-Kimloc, a mortal bard/shaman, gathers ritual components to summon/awaken the Bridgeburner brigade

YOU do the math!




edit: "hur dur, Kemlock totaly wuz the reezon the bridgburnerz ascended, LOL! i mean, he made the whole desert sing!"
Other people can do it too. Enjoy a taste of your own mockery.

This post has been edited by Vesper: 10 April 2010 - 07:54 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

haha okok, nicely done vesper. i'll give you that i was a pontificating and came off as a bit of an ass. i wasn't responding to your posts in particular but its no big deal.

you make some good points, but i stand by my opinion that it was mostly due to the tanno song of kimloc that the bridgeburners ascended. paran's blessing certainly had an effect, maybe it was even necessary, but no kimloc - no ascended bridgeburners. at least thats how i see it.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Vesper, on 10 April 2010 - 04:25 AM, said:

I believe that this post is largely a criticism of my opinions. Please allow me to phrase my own rebuttal:

1. It is not unreasonable to believe that one who would bestow ascendancy on others would withhold it from himself. He is stated as being able to "destroy the Malazan armies ... utterly" which itself doesn't seem to be that incredible of a feat given that Anomander Rake singlehandedly devastated a fair portion of the 2nd Army in collateral damage during his exchange with Tayschrenn et. al. Not being listed as an ascendant in the highly comprehensive Dramatis Personae, one must conclude that Kimloc remains mortal. Ergo, he has not bestowed on himself the same power. This suggests that he can't, otherwise he would have used that power to defend Karakarang with even more powerful protective sorcery rather than surrender it to the Malazan army. Really... Rake was an ascendant, and he defended Moon's Spawn all on his own! It's not a question of narcissism in this case so much as it is a question of devotion. He loved his people enough to surrender the city with minimal deaths, obviously he would have taken on the burdening mantle of ascendant to protect them if he could.

Point one I would raise here is that not all ascendants are created equal, Rake is possible the most powerful being we see in the series. Point two is that Kimloc was aware enough to know that he was not enough to stop the Malazan empire from getting his city if they wanted it. Had he 'made himself ascend' just to battle them they could have come back with Kellanved, Dancer, Dassem, and the Kron T'lan Imass.

Quote

2. Paran, on the other hand, is an ascendant. He has been forced into the role of Master of the Deck to negotiate order on chaos. When he inadvertently blessed the one marine who had taken to defending Silverfox, she felt the gravity of his words. Whether or not she became an ascendant as well I don't remember, but dismissing Paran's influence in this is -- in my most humble opinion -- the same as saying that plate tectonics have nothing to do with earth quakes. Every single ascendant we have met has a place in the Deck of Dragons, even if they are unaligned. K'rul is the obelisk (though that could also be Burn, depending on how you interpret GotM and MoI), Oponn has his/her own card, etc. While some non-ascendants (ex. Icarium) also have places in the Deck, it appears that being in the Deck of Dragons is a requirement to be an ascendant (or a side-effect).
3. Kimloc's song may have awakened the Bridgeburners, but there's no reason to conclude that it specifically led to their ascension. Christ, Burn's been asleep for a thousand years and K'rul was thought lost for millennia. Is it unreasonable to assume that the Bridgeburners were simply not able to appear before Kimloc's song, but already ascended (or on the very verge of it)?


Now, let's recap:
-Paran, vested with the authority to accept or deny access to a cosmic roster of power, blesses the Bridgeburner brigade
vs.
-Kimloc, a mortal bard/shaman, gathers ritual components to summon/awaken the Bridgeburner brigade

.





edit: "hur dur, Kemlock totaly wuz the reezon the bridgburnerz ascended, LOL! i mean, he made the whole desert sing!"
Other people can do it too. Enjoy a taste of your own mockery.

Read my above post about the nature of the BB's ascendancy. It's from DoD, but gives nothing away about that book and I don't say who gives the quote. It's just someone ruminating on what happened no later than MoI


P.S. Delete or spoiler your third point as this is the MT forum and you hint at massive spoilers in that part.

[Vesper]

Sinisdar Toste, on 10 April 2010 - 05:01 AM, said:

haha okok, nicely done vesper. i'll give you that i was a pontificating and came off as a bit of an ass. i wasn't responding to your posts in particular but its no big deal.

you make some good points, but i stand by my opinion that it was mostly due to the tanno song of kimloc that the bridgeburners ascended. paran's blessing certainly had an effect, maybe it was even necessary, but no kimloc - no ascended bridgeburners. at least thats how i see it.

I think we're going to consistently disagree on that last point. Read below for my reasoning to Whiskeyjack regarding... well... Whiskeyjack.
(edit: also, I hope there are no hard feelings from my rebuttal. I kind of got a little annoyed when I thought you were mocking me, though I tried not to be very vicious in my reply.)

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 10 April 2010 - 05:34 AM, said:

Point one I would raise here is that not all ascendants are created equal, Rake is possible the most powerful being we see in the series. Point two is that Kimloc was aware enough to know that he was not enough to stop the Malazan empire from getting his city if they wanted it. Had he 'made himself ascend' just to battle them they could have come back with Kellanved, Dancer, Dassem, and the Kron T'lan Imass.

There is some merit to that, I agree. Rake's over the top when it comes to power. Nonetheless, Kellanved, Dancer, and Dassem were not ascendants at this point... not until Kellanved and Dancer actually went in and claimed the throne of shadow, at least. Dassem... well... I just don't know what to say about him...

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 10 April 2010 - 05:34 AM, said:

Read my above post about the nature of the BB's ascendancy. It's from DoD, but gives nothing away about that book and I don't say who gives the quote. It's just someone ruminating on what happened no later than MoI


P.S. Delete or spoiler your third point as this is the MT forum and you hint at massive spoilers in that part.

Being a literary major I am constantly assessing every character and narrative point regarding the consistency and reliability of the source. One thing I learned very early on with this series is that Erikson's narrative is highly subjective. That is, whichever character's point of view is being followed will reflect in the narrative. The second major point is that these characters are unreliable sources. The world itself is simply too vast and complicated for individual characters to have more than a fragmented understanding that leads to egregious errors in understanding and judgment. It is an art to piece together the larger picture from Erikson's narrative, which is one of the reasons I enjoy reading it.

I can say, with a high degree of certainty, that if the narrative were to follow another character at this point, we would likely be seeing that line read as:

Spoiler

"Twice brought into the world of worship. Once by a tribal people and named Iskar Jarak. A bringer of wisdom, a saviour. And the other time, as the commander of a company of soldiers - blessed by the Master of the Deck into ascension and the Deck of Dragons. Yes, the entire company ascended upon death."

Edit: also, though I was somewhat off-put by you ordering me to put the hinting material in spoiler tags, I realized that you were correct in that it could be a spoiler here, so I slapped some tags around it.

This post has been edited by Vesper: 10 April 2010 - 08:22 AM

[anothevilbadguy]

It is quite clearly stated multiple times that the bridgeburners ascended due to Kimloc's song. Paran granted them a place in the deck. Just the same as he did with the House of Chains/Crippled God, again in that case he did not make him, or any of the members of the house, ascend. However, it is true that granting them a place in the deck probably gives them more power/dominion over their house/warren. Ascendancy and the deck do not go hand in hand. There have been a few people in the deck in officially sanctioned positions who are really unlikely to be ascended. Most notably the leper and fool positions in the House of Chains.

Whilst it is true the narrative is often subjective, the amount of different sources, and the first hand-witnessing, pretty much conclusively illustrates that the song created the ascension. It wasn't just Kimloc's power he taped into the bridgeburners' own power/myth and the power of Rakaru (? that desert), plus it is also indicated he is mega powerful himself, i.e. high mage power.

Another thing mentioned that should be remembered is the glossary and dramatis personae are certainly not complete. Their almost undoubtedly literally hundreds of ascendants, if not more. Many like to keep on the low, or are not even aware of it. Icarium (and Mappo) are ascendants, Icarium certainly is.

Sinisdar Toste's original reply describes ascendancy as succinctly as possible.

[Vesper]

anothevilbadguy, on 10 April 2010 - 09:45 AM, said:

Icarium (and Mappo) are ascendants, Icarium certainly is.

No, they are not. Read DG again when they meet Iskaral Pust.

As for the rest, I'm going to read MT again for quotes as soon as I'm done writing my exams.

[anothevilbadguy]

Vesper, on 10 April 2010 - 10:17 AM, said:

anothevilbadguy, on 10 April 2010 - 09:45 AM, said:

Icarium (and Mappo) are ascendants, Icarium certainly is.

No, they are not. Read DG again when they meet Iskaral Pust.

As for the rest, I'm going to read MT again for quotes as soon as I'm done writing my exams.

No they are are, you just have a misunderstanding of what ascendancy is, especially considering the fluid nature of it. Icarium is one of the most ascendty ascendants. And you really cant trust Pust. I have read all of the books multiple times, it is very clear Icarium is an ascendant in any normal use of the term.

[Vesper]

anothevilbadguy, on 10 April 2010 - 10:30 AM, said:

Vesper, on 10 April 2010 - 10:17 AM, said:

anothevilbadguy, on 10 April 2010 - 09:45 AM, said:

Icarium (and Mappo) are ascendants, Icarium certainly is.

No, they are not. Read DG again when they meet Iskaral Pust.

As for the rest, I'm going to read MT again for quotes as soon as I'm done writing my exams.

No they are are, you just have a misunderstanding of what ascendancy is, especially considering the fluid nature of it. Icarium is one of the most ascendty ascendants. And you really cant trust Pust. I have read all of the books multiple times, it is very clear Icarium is an ascendant in any normal use of the term.

I would disagree. The scene wherein Pust asks why Mappo and Icarium have not yet ascended was constructed in such a way through the narrative that it was supposed to present that fact as a defining characteristic for those two. It's essentially Erikson's way of advising the reader just how incredibly powerful Icarium is that he can challenge D'ivers and singlehandedly destroy them as simply his natural state. Were he to ascend, there's no telling what he would be capable of. Fortunately, his amnesia keeps this from happening together with Mappo's efforts to keep Icarium ignorant of his past. Fiddler and Mappo's dialogue later on solidified this:

Fiddler: '...Is that your vow Mappo? To keep the Jhag ignorant?

Mappo Runt: 'Ignorant of the past, yes. His past.

Fiddler: '...Without history there's no growth-'

Mappo Runt: 'Aye.'

[lobo the wolfman]

Caladan Brood is an ascendent, yet has no role in the Deck of Dragons that we know of. Nor do Scabandari Bloodeye, Silchas Ruin, Menandore, Sheltatha Lore and Sukul Ankhadu yet they are all ascendants (if you can provide quotes to prove me wrong, then i will stand corrected). WhiskeyJack was not an ascendent yet held the position of Mason of Death, Kalam was also marked as the Herald of Death in Dead House Gates l seem to recall ( the reading at the small guard house).

Holding a place in the Deck of Dragons does not mean one is necessarily a ascendant, it means that person has a role to play in the near future, the Deck is used to tell fortunes after all. Being ascendant doses not mean that they would have a place in the Deck, but they are more likely to as their actions causes more ripples in life then a normal person would.