[sunburntcheetah]

I've read all of the other books so far and the filler is just becoming far to tedious. I think at this point in the series EVERY reader understands that in this world history repeats itself, civilization is based upon the suffering of the lower class, tyrants will always fall eventually, nothing is forever, etc. etc. etc. I don't need to read 800 pages of description about the depression and angst that the world and the characters are feeling at this point.

There are so many characters and plot lines that are never fully flushed out in ANY of the books. So much time is spent defining these characters and cities and stories, but not enough time is ever spent with these characters actually doing something. I would much rather not 100% understand the characters, and have them actually accomplish something meaningful. Example: About 40% into the book so far and how much time has been spent dealing with Nimander's angst? And what has he actually done so far? Sortof killed his sister, whined for about 20 chapters, went into a random world for a few paragraphs, found a doll that was the dying god. Of those things about 90% (guess) of the lines were describing his emotions and angst, while 10% was him actually accomplishing something.

I like getting to know characters so I can appreciate their motivations, etc. But I find myself skipping entire paragraphs at this point just to get past the filler. Even looking at these boards it becomes clear that most topics are discussions about WHAT happened and WHY. After finishing all of the books i've had to google certain events because there was just a random paragraph or two describing it in not enough detail. There is so much confusion about what events actually occurred and their meaning in the whole storyline. I think with more time spent on the What and Why, these books would be far more enjoyable.

[Defiance]

Well, this problem was only apparent to me in Toll. I loved the first 7 books, but found myself struggling to get through this one. The last 200 pages are so awesome that it almost makes up for how slow the rest of the book is. I'm on Dust of Dreams right now, about 130 pages in, and I'm enjoying it a lot more than Toll.

As for the what and the why, I agree in some instances but one of the things I love most about Malazan is how you have to figure out almost everything for yourself. Erikson isn't the best author I've ever read, but he's one of my favorites because of how much his books make me think. This ends up being a flaw in his books at some points, but for the most part I really love how much thinking you have to do to keep up. A lot different from anything I've ever read.

I fully agree about the history repeating itself thing, I roll my eyes whenever I read it in the books at this point. Some of the other ideas Erikson presents are very insightful, though.

[SpectreofEschaton]

I felt the large way the first time I finished TTH, but I have to say, since I reread it, it's become one of my favorite books of all time. Sure, it's a very different kind of book than the others, but there's a certain...poetry to it that I found almost profound once I stopped worrying about what was going on and why. It's one of the those instances, for me, of enjoying the journey more than the destination...wait, nevermind, it was both with TTH, since, again, in my opinion, the ending was the best out of the entire series. I still get chills just glancing through some of it from time to time.

I guess I did feel like a lot of the book was boring filler on the first time through, but a second reading really made me appreciate what Erikson was doing in TTH. YMMV though.

[Defiance]

Also, concerning Erikson's characterization. He has some of the best I've seen and some of the worse I've seen. I think there are more memorable characters from Malazan than half the other fantasy works I've read combined, however there are also some characters that just feel entirely like plot devices/have no personality.

[sunburntcheetah]

Yeah this is the first book i've slogged through at this point. The others were a little tedious, but overall I loved them. This one is just trying to hard to be "artsy" in my opinion. Maybe when i get to those last 200 pages i'll get a new take on the book. Up to page 600 or so, so we'll see!

[SpectreofEschaton]

sunburntcheetah, on 26 March 2010 - 04:09 AM, said:

Yeah this is the first book i've slogged through at this point. The others were a little tedious, but overall I loved them. This one is just trying to hard to be "artsy" in my opinion. Maybe when i get to those last 200 pages i'll get a new take on the book. Up to page 600 or so, so we'll see!

Oh, wait, you haven't finished yet?

Prepare to be blown away, that's all I'll say.

[Sinisdar Toste]

TtH was always a bit of a risk for SE. he tried some new things and took the narrative in a very different direction from the previous books. sure some of it is tedious and a lot of it is really, WTF? why is this happening? until you see how it ends though i think you should wait on the what and why of the events in the book. there's a very big thing that on a reread, you see everybody was dancing around the whole time; not because they knew and didn't want to say, but because they weren't quite sure what was happening either.

the pathos in this book is quite evident and should be. SE's father died while he was writing this book and it definitely had an effect on the tone if not the release date. giving us this book on time in light of such a tragedy is frankly astonishing. SE is superhuman

[worry]

Also, "trying too hard" and "artsy" are valueless criticisms.

[Defiance]

worrywort, on 26 March 2010 - 05:00 AM, said:

Also, "trying too hard" and "artsy" are valueless criticisms.

When you take what he said out of context like that, sure they are.

[Seguleh 1st]

well, in all of the books, there were 2 storylines i really did not like (connected to certain characters)

1. the mhybe
2. Nimander

maybe its just some prejudice against emos on my part, but really,
all the whining and complaining and stuff start to go tedious after a while

i want Fantasy, not Werther.

(and for those of you who dont get the last statement: http://en.wikipedia...._Young_Werther)

this may sound somewhat superficial, but indeed, ive noticed that many people got somewhat annoyed with
those two characters, and well, not everything can be perfect

[Ulrik]

I hated Mhybe first time...after reread, she is really tragic character. I enjoyed her parts with Kruppe, Coll...




And Nimander? I like him as I liked all tTH "filler" parts. For me is more important to see Darujhistan breathing, beating of its heart...and Murillo´s Fall, Stonny´s desperation, Andii last hope for survival thru bunch of self-exiles than megaubercool dragon fights, vast army clashes (OK, I like those too)...for me is Erikson Special One for those parts where I do not follow some typical hero or "anti-hero", but men and women who piss in the morning, has doubts, their own demons, desires...and see their future crumble...or not:) For me, Karsa is funny part, Nimander deep and interesting counterpart.

[worry]

Defiance, on 26 March 2010 - 04:13 PM, said:

worrywort, on 26 March 2010 - 05:00 AM, said:

Also, "trying too hard" and "artsy" are valueless criticisms.

When you take what he said out of context like that, sure they are.

The context is criticism. There is no need to go further than that. They are filler words, to appropriate the thread idea, used to describe personal, idiosyncratic problems one has with a work (something like saying a banana tastes too much like a banana for your personal taste)...they mean nothing of value on their own, and so they are used to attempt to communicate the incommunicable. I was not discrediting sunburntcheetah's opinion by any means, just saying that the terminology is (by nature) inapt.

[Garak]

I'm re-reading TtH now and I'm enjoying all the "filler".

[Kurt Montandon]

As other people have said, the key to this book is the re-read. You aren't anxiously awaiting what happens next, so you have time to really appreciate how well crafted some of the secondary plots really are, and how Erikson explores them.

Mind you, I think the entire Trygalle plot was the only truly annoying part of the book, especially when they encountered the Jaghut. Just a waste of time, even on a re-read. And the Salind and Challice stories can get a bit wearying, though they are mostly all right.

Everything else, though, really works, once you no longer are reading through waiting for some ubercool superclash of massive armies and dragons and mages. The Nimander & Co. story especially takes on a new light, and the Andii of Black Coral are fascinating to read bout (Spinnock and Endest, especially). And the whole book makes Anomander just look that much more absurdly awesome, even before the ending.

[HoosierDaddy]

Toll ages well. Read a second time, you should start to see the genius of the literature as opposed to the need of the fantastical fiend. There is much to be absorbed and appreciated in Toll. I think it is the second most contained book in the series after Midnight Tides. It is very much so its own novel within the Malazan Universe.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

I remember enjoying it famously. But I read Toll over a very long time. The so-called-filler was definitely differently paced than, for example, the siege of Capustan, which was epic clash style.

[zenMichael]

i'm currently halfway through TtH, and I have FINALLY started to at least NOTICE the overdone philosophizing/navel gazing that people complain about (or at least point out) a fair bit. i absolutely don't mind it (though I agree, the myhbe sections were damn near unreadable for me, and i skipped on my MoI reread. Possibly because I STILL don't understand most of that plotline. but anyway), and in fact am enjoying TtH probably the most out of the MBotF just in terms of pure joy of reading (i'm sure the french have a great word for that that puts it better), though i can maybe see some people's frustration at the fact that it doesn't seem to be "advancing" the plot that much so far (but who cares? i'm not expecting everything to be tied up at the end of book 10--that's not the point, is it?--and i like the characters, so, much like the Korbelain & Broach stuff, i can still enjoy this even though it's not exactly hard core plot momentum--yet). but it definitely doesn't feel like filler to me. i guess it stabs at the heart of what this series is "about." for many readers, it's about the bridgeburners, and they pretty much get frustrated after MoI. for a larger contingent, it seems to be about the Crippled God showdown, hence why I could easily see TtH, right after RG, would be fairly infuriating. For me, I'm mostly here for Erikson's writing, so I think my biggest difficulty was trying to read ICE's stuff (liked NoK much better on a reread, so i'm assuming it's just the change was quite a bit much for me after feeling so used to SE's rhythms, and the fact that NoK was not at all what i was expecting it to be).

but i thought i'd point out an amusing side effect of reading TtH: i now find myself slipping into a Nimander/(now totally blanking on the name and I don't have the book in front of me -- the Tiste Andii who is Anomander's "oldest friend," who is currently brunching with Caladan Brood on a mountain)-esque reverie over silly things. Like if I stub my toe or whatever, rather than think, 'ow!' i think, 'ow! frightening, how all of life could be condensed into this one meaningless syllable, an endless repetition of a child's fearful cry in the dark...' and so on. normally i squash this pretty quickly, but it's definitely there. again and again and again.

[Use Of Weapons]

French for joy of reading: 'joie de livre' (And before anyone says, yes, I know! But it's in order to chime rhythmically with 'joie de vivre'.)

[Braden]

I have to say that I started to feel like I was “slogging through” this one and with all the more depressing pieces early on it really does make it hard going….but once things start to conjoin quite early on (Karsa turning up, the High King joining Nimander etc) then I started to lap it up like the previous books.



I think much of what may seem excess is there to get the reader back into the same mind-frame as Darujhistan again after so long and of course meeting some old favourite characters is nice (Blend always makes me laugh and catching up with the natives we knew all that time back is great for examples).



All in all, I found this book easier to read than Reapers Gale…which I struggled with until the last third due to what I saw as needless exposition.

[Ceda Cicero]

I think whoever pointed out that TtH was a risk for Erikson has it absolutely right, and I think to a huge degree this same thing can be said of the entire series and Erikson as a writer. He takes chances unapologetically, and he asks for an enormous amount of faith on the part of his readers - moreso than any other author I've read. The Mhybe, for example, is such a non-traditional fantasy character, especially when you compare her to everything else that's happening in MoI. It's natural that her PoVs are going to seem like a chore when you've got the Grey Swords in Capustan fending off an army of cannibals, and Rake hiding a floating fortress underwater in Coral.

The real question you have to ask is this: what did Erikson set out to achieve, what was his standard for success, and did he meet it? I think that, regardless of how you feel about the Mhybe, Nimander, or the general (very clear) shift in narrative style throughout TtH, you have to acknowledge that he succeeded. Again with the Mhybe, Erikson's said that he set out to make MoI a book about motherhood. If that's our standard, he succeeded.

Now whether or not a reader is going to be engaged by that is purely a matter of taste, and I'm not arguing that if you don't enjoy every single one of Erikson's riskier characters and plot-lines you don't "get" him, or don't have good taste. It's just important to acknowledge what SE is asking of you as the reader - if you're not capable of giving it on your first read-through because you want to see less Nimander and more Rake, that's understandable. But give it another chance on a reread, for sure, because you might find yourself more able/willing to invest in some of SE's more daring leaps of faith the second time around, and it could pay off hugely.