[Eloth]

 Anthras, on 18 March 2010 - 06:56 PM, said:

 Omtose, on 18 March 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

If fener wanted out of the game, he'd just ask for modkill. So, I reckon he's definetely doing what he is for a reason. I would imagine that reason would be ignored. And look at that, there have been at least a couple of people encouraging us simply to ignore him, for reasons I think are stupid. Shadows meta reasoning for example-If he was having trouble playing, why not request modkill rather than waste our time.

I don't like fener, and I don't like the people advocating us ignoring him entirely.

There may be a very good reason to ignore him:

Quote

Vitaly Ragoza (The Mirror) - a minor Other who was not associated with either side, but was turned into the Mirror by the Twilight itself in order to correct the imbalance between the Night Watch and Day Watch in Moscow. As the Mirror, he had an ability to match the power level of any Other he was combating at the time. In the span of two weeks, he killed Tiger Cub and drained Svetlana's power. Upon completing his mission, he vanished into the Twilight.

(from wikipedia)

If he were this mirror he'd want people to lynch/attack him to increase his own power as he 'matches' them. If it's true, then we definitely do want to ignore and avoid him.

Isn't that the role of the Inquisition this game, making that redundant? Or are you advocating a possible single-member faction?

[Kalse]

 Shadow, on 18 March 2010 - 06:53 PM, said:

Well I'm a bit perplexed about you right now, Kalse. You were the one who forwarded a strategy of maybe voting night 9 times in a row, which basically hands the Inquisition a victory and everyone else a loss (since they'll all likely be recruited). But you now seem to want to vote off any 'outed' member. I agree, the RI way to play is probably to lynch Watchers, but I see no reason that an SELF-CLAIMED Watcher gets lynched by a team that is trying to keep the game balanced, unless, as I've said, they know something about the balance being off right now.

Well, seeing how there was remarkably little support for my let's sit back suggestion, I decided to move on and play like I would in a standard game. That means identifying scum (I'll grant you that scum =/= watches in this game thanks to the VC). Fener was kind enough to do this for us. Now, also, you may have noted that elsewhere, I advocated that he may actually have a role that thrives on being targeted, maybe getting extra ability uses or abilities, who knows? Cause he's very likely to get more action than Sasha Grey. As I still believe such a role may be possible, I think it may be good for us to remove him from the equation.

@ Anthras: wow, you just gave him the ultimate way out, didn't you, with no hint towards the existence of this guy in the game?

Anyway, as said, I'm happy lynching someone else (preferably someone who rings my alarm bells... GL, Mockra, Anthras).

[Shadow]

Well those are good enough points, Serc, but I then ask you why he wasn't modkilled for trying to harm his own team today if he's really telling the truth? I guess you could argue he's 'helping' his team by keeping attention on himself, but then why not go for someone else that may have been visible yesterday (whom he is trying to screen today) who may be the master?

IDK, just my 2 cents. I'd vote Fener today if that was consensus.

[Anthras]

 Eloth, on 18 March 2010 - 07:03 PM, said:

 Anthras, on 18 March 2010 - 06:56 PM, said:

 Omtose, on 18 March 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

If fener wanted out of the game, he'd just ask for modkill. So, I reckon he's definetely doing what he is for a reason. I would imagine that reason would be ignored. And look at that, there have been at least a couple of people encouraging us simply to ignore him, for reasons I think are stupid. Shadows meta reasoning for example-If he was having trouble playing, why not request modkill rather than waste our time.

I don't like fener, and I don't like the people advocating us ignoring him entirely.

There may be a very good reason to ignore him:

Quote

Vitaly Ragoza (The Mirror) - a minor Other who was not associated with either side, but was turned into the Mirror by the Twilight itself in order to correct the imbalance between the Night Watch and Day Watch in Moscow. As the Mirror, he had an ability to match the power level of any Other he was combating at the time. In the span of two weeks, he killed Tiger Cub and drained Svetlana's power. Upon completing his mission, he vanished into the Twilight.

(from wikipedia)

If he were this mirror he'd want people to lynch/attack him to increase his own power as he 'matches' them. If it's true, then we definitely do want to ignore and avoid him.

Isn't that the role of the Inquisition this game, making that redundant? Or are you advocating a possible single-member faction?

Not necessarily seperate faction, could be an inquisition member, or count as an RI. Or not. Don't know, but it would match well with the idea of Fener wanting to be lynched and obviously acting in such a way as to draw NAs.

Or, to add plenty of WIFOM, Fener could be acting as if he were this role in the hopes that someone like me would point this character out and everyone'd be freaked out about him.

[Shadow]

Let's ask this question then: If Fener is trying to draw lynches because of some potential "mirror power," how is he supposed to be killed in this game? By NKs would be the only guess I have.

[Kalse]

 Anthras, on 18 March 2010 - 07:08 PM, said:

Or, to add plenty of WIFOM, Fener could be acting as if he were this role in the hopes that someone like me would point this character out and everyone'd be freaked out about him.

I think the Twilight game proved that adding unknown factions with unknown VCs is a bad idea and leads to mad players after the game. I doubt Ment would do that, if he does, I'm going to be pretty angry with him. As such, I find this last argument of you even worse than coming up with the wiki'ed role in the first place.

remove vote
vote Anthras

for scaremongering.

[Osseric]

 Omtose, on 18 March 2010 - 06:50 PM, said:

There is something of a problem with sitting back and letting the inquisition deal with balance to win.
See, it is entirely possible that the teams will remain even until day 10, with neither gaining an advantage, number of recruits staying even, no one dead, etc.
The problem being that if we wait it out until then, it's unlikely that many, if any, of us will be RI by then.
The best way for us to secure a win is to take out any recruiters, and then leave it even until day 10. This is unlikely however, since we probably won't know when we've taken out all the recruiters. So, we need to look for them, and hope to keep balance.

How do you propose we take out the recruiters? Our one power, the lynch, is taken away by the inquisition, thats fine, and I agree that if given a choice, we should be submitting recruiters to the inquisition and giving them the choice on whose lynch to let go through. But at the end of the day, it's up to the inquisition to determine if they want to let that lynch go through. They might have inside knowledge, or something that we are not aware of to make that decision easier, but at this time we don't have that info. Based on the info we have now... i just don't see a lynch going through, even if it is a recruiter. But I do agree with you omtose, we should try to get the recruiters lynched and let the inquisition make the call on if they let it go through or not.

[Anthras]

 Kalse, on 18 March 2010 - 07:05 PM, said:

@ Anthras: wow, you just gave him the ultimate way out, didn't you, with no hint towards the existence of this guy in the game?

Well, I'd rather run the risk of us being informed about the possibilities since most have not read any of the books. And yeah, it's an out for him, but he won't take it as that'd be too easily construable as him just jumping into the out, hence making him look fake. Instead he'll ignore or dney the possibility outright.

[Shadow]

Kalse, you forget that I think GK made this game, not Ment. And GK is known for insane mechanics, such as, for example, coin-flip-kill showers.

[Osseric]

 Serc, on 18 March 2010 - 06:59 PM, said:

 Shadow, on 18 March 2010 - 05:51 PM, said:

Basically, since the day started, the most suspicious person has been Mockra. I'm all for voting early in the day and whatnot, but everything about his vote (reasoning, timing, subsequent defense of it) has a really bad smell to it.

There's no point in voting Fener, despite his protestations. If he's really a recruit, the other watch will almost certainly kill him off, if they can.

I don't like voting for vocal players early in the game, but something about Mockra is really not sitting right, and there's no obvious reason to think he would even be successfully lynched, so

Vote Mockra

Underlined is mine - why would you vote for someone if you don't believe they will be die? I don't understand why everyone thinks the inquisition is going to block lynches indefinitely. The inquisition needs to keep a balance, but they also need to survive. If they dont try and limit both teams then late in the game everyone is going to be on one of the watches and they will lose the advantage they have now. The inquisition is the main enemy of the watches at this point, so the inquisition needs to keep the number of RI up so that they have some people 'on their team'. The only way they can do that is to lynch the recruiters. Now I seriously doubt the inquisitors can choose to only let recruiters be lynched, that would be very overpowered. So they're going to have to let some lynches on the watch through. An imbalance is unavoidable, the inquisitions job is to try even the numbers back out as soon as possible to keep any one watch from wiping out the other. I can understand noone getting lynched yesterday - as Kalse says, yesterday an unlucky lynch NK combo could have ended the game early in favour of one of the watches. Assuming both watches recruited last night, that possibility no longer exists and it's in their interests to let a lynch on a watch member go through.

As for Fener, I highly doubt an original watch member would put themselves on the line like that day one. Implying he's at worst a recruit. The other possibilities are that he has a hidden agenda or he's just bat-shit crazy. If he's RI, lynching him again won't help, it just gives the watches another night to recruit. If he's a recruit, then I'm not sure if he's a good lynch, since we need to be looking for the recruiters. And if he's playing to some hidden agenda, the WIFOM of whether he's bluffing or not could be discussed endlessly. Hence the people calling to put him on the backburner for now. We can continue to discuss him and not learn anything until he comes back and can actually explain himself, or we can talk about something else and try to move the game forward a little.

Also, does anyone have any idea when day times out? I have a sneaky feeling it's gonna be at some ungodly hour here.

Thank you, at least now I see a possible reason that even a non recruiting lynch might go through, never thought about it like that.

[Eloth]

 Kalse, on 18 March 2010 - 07:10 PM, said:

 Anthras, on 18 March 2010 - 07:08 PM, said:

Or, to add plenty of WIFOM, Fener could be acting as if he were this role in the hopes that someone like me would point this character out and everyone'd be freaked out about him.

I think the Twilight game proved that adding unknown factions with unknown VCs is a bad idea and leads to mad players after the game. I doubt Ment would do that, if he does, I'm going to be pretty angry with him. As such, I find this last argument of you even worse than coming up with the wiki'ed role in the first place.

remove vote
vote Anthras

for scaremongering.

It is indeed a strange notion as it is seeming to protect Fener, who claims to be recruited. I don't think a master would put themselves out like that for a recruit, meaning either Fener isn't a recruit or Anthras is trying to deflect away from his actual master.

Or it could be a legit statement that is just ringing every bell possible.

I'm not sure what to make of it at this point.

[Kalse]

 Shadow, on 18 March 2010 - 07:13 PM, said:

Kalse, you forget that I think GK made this game, not Ment. And GK is known for insane mechanics, such as, for example, coin-flip-kill showers.

I'm going to be pretty angry at both of them, in that case. Insane mechanics or not, including some bad motherfucker Samuel L Jackson goes solo role/faction should not be hidden.
That does not mean that the thick line in ink between Fener and Anthras is going to be magically removed from my notepad.

[Serc]

 Shadow, on 18 March 2010 - 07:07 PM, said:

Well those are good enough points, Serc, but I then ask you why he wasn't modkilled for trying to harm his own team today if he's really telling the truth? I guess you could argue he's 'helping' his team by keeping attention on himself, but then why not go for someone else that may have been visible yesterday (whom he is trying to screen today) who may be the master?

IDK, just my 2 cents. I'd vote Fener today if that was consensus.

Did he really harm his team though? He hasnt named anyone else in his team, he's thrown everyone off balance and I would see what he did as a risky double bluff (if he's telling the truth) rather than a deliberate sabotage of his team. The modkill isn't there to stop people being crazy and or stupid, it's to stop people deliberately ruining the game for others.

And we should go for the master is what I'm saying... I think we've crossed wires a little bit here? Do you think Mockra is Fener's master?

[Anthras]

You guys are the ones jumping to the solo-faction conclusion. I was merely pointing out the similarity of Fener wanting to be attacked with a role allegedly from the novels. The character is not from either Watch, it seems, but I still think that could leave him as an Inquisitor or RI.

[Shadow]

I don't think that, no, but I do think it's more of a possibility than Mockra is some kind of master/leader given his behavior. It reads, to me, like someone scrambling to either give direction to his followers or (less likely) maybe to cover for his new recruit.

[Kalse]

 Serc, on 18 March 2010 - 07:19 PM, said:

 Shadow, on 18 March 2010 - 07:07 PM, said:

Well those are good enough points, Serc, but I then ask you why he wasn't modkilled for trying to harm his own team today if he's really telling the truth? I guess you could argue he's 'helping' his team by keeping attention on himself, but then why not go for someone else that may have been visible yesterday (whom he is trying to screen today) who may be the master?

IDK, just my 2 cents. I'd vote Fener today if that was consensus.

Did he really harm his team though? He hasnt named anyone else in his team, he's thrown everyone off balance and I would see what he did as a risky double bluff (if he's telling the truth) rather than a deliberate sabotage of his team. The modkill isn't there to stop people being crazy and or stupid, it's to stop people deliberately ruining the game for others.

And we should go for the master is what I'm saying... I think we've crossed wires a little bit here? Do you think Mockra is Fener's master?

I agree 100% with the underlined.

[Serc]

Not willing to put a vote down on it yet, but I agree with Kalse - seriously Anthras? The badass solo power role... could be an RI? A roleless innocent?

[Anthras]

 Serc, on 18 March 2010 - 07:24 PM, said:

Not willing to put a vote down on it yet, but I agree with Kalse - seriously Anthras? The badass solo power role... could be an RI? A roleless innocent?

Fine, bad wording I guess - on the RI faction. The character is not a watchman, not an inquisitor, fights the watchers and the quitters who take him on, so sounds like he's a super-human and not an Other. If he existed he'd probably even have started out with no abilities other than able to get new ones from being attacked.

[Serc]

 Anthras, on 18 March 2010 - 07:29 PM, said:

 Serc, on 18 March 2010 - 07:24 PM, said:

Not willing to put a vote down on it yet, but I agree with Kalse - seriously Anthras? The badass solo power role... could be an RI? A roleless innocent?

Fine, bad wording I guess - on the RI faction. The character is not a watchman, not an inquisitor, fights the watchers and the quitters who take him on, so sounds like he's a super-human and not an Other. If he existed he'd probably even have started out with no abilities other than able to get new ones from being attacked.

Very bad wording, since the inquisition are for all intents and purpose the roled members of the RI faction... If you're stretching to defend a slightly misguided attempt to be helpful then please say so, but it really sounds like you're pulling things out of your ass to get people focussed on this and leave Fener alone.

[Ruse]

 Anthras, on 18 March 2010 - 06:56 PM, said:

 Omtose, on 18 March 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

If fener wanted out of the game, he'd just ask for modkill. So, I reckon he's definetely doing what he is for a reason. I would imagine that reason would be ignored. And look at that, there have been at least a couple of people encouraging us simply to ignore him, for reasons I think are stupid. Shadows meta reasoning for example-If he was having trouble playing, why not request modkill rather than waste our time.

I don't like fener, and I don't like the people advocating us ignoring him entirely.

There may be a very good reason to ignore him:

Quote

Vitaly Ragoza (The Mirror) - a minor Other who was not associated with either side, but was turned into the Mirror by the Twilight itself in order to correct the imbalance between the Night Watch and Day Watch in Moscow. As the Mirror, he had an ability to match the power level of any Other he was combating at the time. In the span of two weeks, he killed Tiger Cub and drained Svetlana's power. Upon completing his mission, he vanished into the Twilight.

(from wikipedia)

If he were this mirror he'd want people to lynch/attack him to increase his own power as he 'matches' them. If it's true, then we definitely do want to ignore and avoid him.

I had considered that and he is the only character i could think of who might want to die but I highly doubt they put the mirror in here, that would be insane! especially this early on in the game, he was introduced to right a massive balance issue so id suspect he might possibly be put in as a 3rd or 4th recruit not a first night one and definitely not as a starter in a faction.

 Shadow, on 18 March 2010 - 07:10 PM, said:

Let's ask this question then: If Fener is trying to draw lynches because of some potential "mirror power," how is he supposed to be killed in this game? By NKs would be the only guess I have.

No if he was the mirror he cant be killed that is the point of the mirror, i highly doubt theyd put that character in as he is by his very nature unbalanced he becomes as strong as any power used against him

 Shadow, on 18 March 2010 - 07:13 PM, said:

Kalse, you forget that I think GK made this game, not Ment. And GK is known for insane mechanics, such as, for example, coin-flip-kill showers.

I was pretty sure Ment came up with the game and GK helped