[Iconik]

I don't really understand the point behind this. I suppose if it WEREN'T this way we wouldn't have a book. What conqueror in the history of the world gains land, defeats an enemy, takes over their way of life and their capital city and then appoints prominent people from that conquered people in high standing positions in government and military? Oh I suppose you have a few examples here and there with certain INDIVIDUALS being appointed important positions throughout history. Beckett comes to mind but he was a trusted confidant of Richard's. When a people are conquered they are eradicated as quickly as possible. The conquerors way of life is imposed on the conquered, important people and leaders of the defense or rebellion are done away with, John Everyman is turned into a slave or conscripted into the conquerors army. The Gauls for instance in the case of Rome. Or the Saxons in the 12th century.

What conquering people takes over everything then hands over entire cities and portions of the map to the people you JUST got done defeating? This makes absolutely no sense and it kind of bothers me. Rhulad or ANY EDUR FOR THAT MATTER should of made sure that the Letherii were dominated to the point of almost complete genocide. I don't care how isolated Rhulad is. He invited that isolation. I don't care how mad he supposedly is. ANY Edur would of acted in his stead to ensure that the Letherii were nothing more than slaves. Why SE? Why?

[Sinisdar Toste]

well sure the edur brought it on themselves. kinda the point. they just didn't understand the poisonous seduction of the letherii way of life. the kind of snobbery they were engaged in also didn't help. especially combined with the fact that apparently a lot of the edur just started kicking back with the concubines and enjoying the luxuries of a ruling class, completely letting their guard down. dont forget as well that their numbers were severely depleted, by the three fleets that were sent out (which included the most powerful and influential edur outside of rhulad and hannan mosah)then scattered across an empire. they were only 400,000 in total to begin with remember. lethers population is probably many times that figure. in RG they do finally recognize the danger their in and try to remedy it (see brohl handar and bruthen trana) but by then its too late.

i fail to see how that doesn't make sense

[Iconik]

Because once you take over a territory you don't appoint prominent figures from the people you just defeated to high standing positions in military and government. It'd be like the US defeating Germany then appointing Hitler to US Secretary of State. Numbers be damned. If your peoples numbers are depleted then you cut down the numbers of the defeated to a reasonable number. Their are hundreds of examples of this throughout history. I understand that this isn't Earth's history but, SE strikes me as a history buff so would use real life logic when it came to Letheras.

You don't need Hannan Mosag or Tomad to quell the conspiracy. You need your own form of justice, a sword and whatever motivation is needed. Letur, The Liberty Consign and the Patriotists wouldn't even exist if I were in Rhulad's place. If you're Letherii you're a slave. If you aren't a slave it's because you were destroyed in the culling.

Now Laseen. SHE has got the right idea.

[Illuyankas]

Wait, Laseen? The 'allows Pormqual to stay in office' Laseen? The 'lies down in front of Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom and does her best doormat impression' Laseen? That Laseen? Jeez, man, at least the Edur had the excuse of no familiarity with that style of civilisation and viewing the Letherii as subhuman sub-Edur and below their concern.

[Sinisdar Toste]

explain to me how the edur are supposed to conduct a thorough slaughter and enslavement of a nation with upwards of a million citizens when their whole people number only 400,000, and not have the place rise up in revolt? the majority of the letherii army was not defeated in the conquest. so they are still armed. how is any edur, who don't even use a currency based economy before coming to lether, supposed to run an economy as complicated as that of pre-independance america? no visibly powerful person from the previous regime is kept in place. the king is dead. his champion is dead, his advisor is dead and his ceda is dead. the queen is insane, the prince is dead and his bodyguard is dead. the chancellor bows his head and says he exists to serve so why should they suspect him when all they know is that he's an old man who doesn't wanna die? karos invictad is a complete non-entity until the patriotists come about and the liberty consign exists because, like i said, no edur has the knowledge or the inclination to run the economy.

of course laseen has the right idea. kellenved did it even better before her. but they're humans, they understand their own kind and are exceptionally good at what they do anyway. the edur were ignorant and they paid for it.

[Eispeis]

Actually most, or at least two of the arguably most succesful of the giant empires of yore did exactly what the Edur did. Granted with slightly better policing

The Arab empire following Muhammed's epiphany conquered damn near the entire known world and let the conquered keep on with their lives while establishing themselves as a ruling class floating at the top of society. The conquered peoples would often gain societal benefits by converting to Islam, but a Christian or Jewish man living in Baghdad or Cordoba was free to keep doing what he did without any interference after the Arabs had established themselves.

The Roman Empire was basically built on the idea that if you give the local lords as much leeway as possible, with the added bonus of an eventual MRE (member of the Roman Empire) and possibility of running for the Senate in Rome you're fine. As long as the taxes keep filling Rome's coffers there's no reason to cow the conquered people.

The lesson is that if you give some of the locals benefits to rule their peers and control how much taxes they claim from the little people you hardly need an army at all. The locals will do a damn fine job of policing itself. That is basically what the Liberty Consign and Patriots did.

Sure there will be uprisings/rebellions and attempted coups and assasinations, but that you strike down with extreme prejudice, and this is where the Edur failed. That and having an insane Emperor controlling them in an emprie they didn't want in the first place.

[Iconik]

Illuyankas, on 01 March 2010 - 06:21 PM, said:

Wait, Laseen? The 'allows Pormqual to stay in office' Laseen? The 'lies down in front of Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom and does her best doormat impression' Laseen? That Laseen? Jeez, man, at least the Edur had the excuse of no familiarity with that style of civilisation and viewing the Letherii as subhuman sub-Edur and below their concern.

The Empire was already fully entrenched. It would take a lot more to take them down. Leaving a few bad seeds in certain positions for strategic purposes meets certain ends. Even when certain badseeds are in "power" they are fully within a check-and-balance system with eyes on them at all times. Laseen knew that the nobles needed culled. You can't have the old power still IN power. You eradicate them. The same can be said for entire tribes as well. She gets rid of any threat. What she doesn't get rid of she keeps an eye on.

Again...The Malazan Empire is way too entrenched. Dug in. They aren't going anywhere any time soon and Laseen knows it'll take more than a Korbolo to do so.


((I see there are more replies to this thread so I will answer each separately if need be. Sorry for any double or triple posts))

[Iconik]

Eispeis, on 01 March 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

Actually most, or at least two of the arguably most succesful of the giant empires of yore did exactly what the Edur did. Granted with slightly better policing

The Arab empire following Muhammed's epiphany conquered damn near the entire known world and let the conquered keep on with their lives while establishing themselves as a ruling class floating at the top of society. The conquered peoples would often gain societal benefits by converting to Islam, but a Christian or Jewish man living in Baghdad or Cordoba was free to keep doing what he did without any interference after the Arabs had established themselves.

The Roman Empire was basically built on the idea that if you give the local lords as much leeway as possible, with the added bonus of an eventual MRE (member of the Roman Empire) and possibility of running for the Senate in Rome you're fine. As long as the taxes keep filling Rome's coffers there's no reason to cow the conquered people.

The lesson is that if you give some of the locals benefits to rule their peers and control how much taxes they claim from the little people you hardly need an army at all. The locals will do a damn fine job of policing itself. That is basically what the Liberty Consign and Patriots did.

Sure there will be uprisings/rebellions and attempted coups and assasinations, but that you strike down with extreme prejudice, and this is where the Edur failed. That and having an insane Emperor controlling them in an emprie they didn't want in the first place.

Mmmmmmm I love this discussion. Let's get at it, shall we? You're right (for the most part) about the Muslims. They conquered as far West as what is now Spain but the people were hardly able to do as they please. And the Jews and and Christians under Arab control weren't ALWAYS able to do what they wanted. This changed from leader to leader, province to province and even town to town. It was a Jihad after all.

Spot on with the RE as well except I look at it much like I do with Laseen. Sure, you'll definitely be given the chance to hold a position of power but you'll be CAREFULLY selected or gotten rid of if you refuse to run with the hounds. It seems to me that if the Edur wanted supreme power (which was obviously one of the driving forces behind the conquest) you're going to subjugate and subjugate hard. Allowing the Letherii to still control their monetary system with a ruler on the throne that cares as little for coin (except those on his person) as he does is folly and not one ANY new ruler would allow. Ever. You TAKE OVER the monetary system. You control it's availability, it's worth. You completely CONTROL it. Replace it with your own. In the case of the Edur that care nothing of money...to even ALLOW a currency seems counter-intuitive to their overall agenda. I don't think there's ever been a people so poor, so weak, so outnumbered, so NOT in a position of power that controls SO much in the history of the world. Again...this is Malazan. I realize this. But, it's still interesting as hell.

QUICK EDIT: I should also note that Laseen even outlawed certain religious practices. There was one in particular mentioned in The Bonehunters but I cannot recall the name right now.

This post has been edited by Iconik: 01 March 2010 - 07:59 PM

[Ulrik]

Of course it happended in history. Romans got hugely "greekized". Alexander´s Empire was strongly influenced by Persians and that has reflection in Seleucid Empire. Many Gauls get romanized. Vikings became elite feudal system and as Normans conquered England. In Malta and Sicily happend very similar process - just merging of cultures was more chaotic. Crusader kingdoms and Jerusalem itself became very influenced by muslim culture. Arab culture was strongly influenced by persians after they conquered them.
In golden times of Andalus got Arabian "Spain" status of most civilized city by merging arab, greco-roman, jewish and christian culture. Ottoman Empire wasnt directly influenced, but their provinces got specific law codes according to law of conquered cultures. Mongol invaders in China founded its own dynasty and became almost same as former rulers.

You live in terms of computer games and fiction (no offense!) , in real history is process of conquering VERY complex and cultures are merging, exchanging experiences and influencing one other. Genocidial conquest were rare. But existed - both Americas can tell a story. But when you conquer civilization with developed system, you cant slaughter everyone and rip its basics. You need infrastructure, you need to set your rule on those basics. Of course, change them...

...but Edur didnt stand a chance. No experience with this type of ruling, too few and only power was raw sorcery. Yes, they could won if they slaughtered everyone. But they didnt. C´est la vie and history says its not fictional.

[Iconik]

But those pieces of culture that WERE allowed by the conquerors from the culture of the defeated were monitored and not wholly detrimental to the state. Gauls may of been allowed their burial rights and customs in dressing their deceased according to their religion but were denied their "religion" of animism. You're talking about INFLUENCE. That's natural and comes without really having to work at it. That's just the basic history of man.

What I'm talking about it the Edur defeating the Letheras then allowing the Letheras to do as they wish as if the Edur never even conquered them. Ironically, the Letheras knew how to conquer. Eradication. Subjugation. Extermination. That they ended up having to face the Edur (who they ignored for the most part) and a God is the only reason why they are no longer in power. Although, to be honest they actually ARE in power.

I'm not saying I agree with slavery and genocide in the real world. But, I do recognize the importance of subjugation when conquering a people.

[Ulrik]

Yes, influence - bigger or smaller, its here always. Edur did same thing as Mongols...(damn, Erikson was very succesful in this parallel) got sucked into more developed system. Difference is that Edur were too different and got mad emperor.
Exterminations isnt solution, it offers nothing except natural resources. Spanians a Portugals got it. But you need people if there isnt mines of gold.
Why do you conquest? To be richer. And if there arent tons of gold, you have to drain from people - taxes.
And taxes, my friend is always at first place and dead man doesnt pay:) (Now Im talking bout real world)

[Iconik]

Karos Invictad is J. Edgar Hoover. Basically leading the FBI of Letheras to do as it pleases when it pleases. A powerful position. Can you imagine a country overthrowing another country and then having someone from the defeated country lead the FBI? It's ridiculous.

[HoosierDaddy]

The problem here, is as described by SE in Reaper's Gale, the fact the two most horrible cultural aspects of the two intertwined with one another. The Edur were aristocratic and thought they were above humans. In fact, their servants were human slaves that they had captured, and who seemed to do most of the every day work in the Edur culture, including the highly important processes of burying the dead (in gold, or coin, no less.) The patriarchs rule the roost, until seemingly Hannan Mosag's war of unification preceding R.G.

The Letherii were a society that preached wealth and gold above everything else, and politicked through treachery and underhandedness.

Thus, you have a joining of a society that cares little for wealth, but more for the trappings of it who are used to human servants that conquers a society that worships wealth and is used to being run by an aristocratic class of the extremely wealthy. So, basically you just take Lether as it was, and put the Edur on top of the pyramid. However, they are used to delegating down to their "lessors" in the every day running of things (this is where I'll give Rhulad some credit, he actually cared about things, but was naive and extremely unprepared for the pit of snakes he'd get as "servants" in Letheras).

The Edur don't care about money. They don't seem to care about ANYTHING. It is rule by indifference for the most part. There are plenty of indebted around for servants, so life is good. They are scattered far and wide and isolated from each other, so the effects of the Letherii isolation of them and real politics are hard to see.

Meanwhile, the real Letherii decision makers: the wealthy and bureaucracy are free to operate with little to no supervision of them, thus the extremities of the Patriotists actions and the war on the Awl plain caused by unchecked greed.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 01 March 2010 - 10:24 PM

[Puck]

Also, just to add my 2 cents, it's not like the Edur didn't try to control the Letherii. There was an Edur overseeing the Patriotist's actions [Bruthen Trana], as well as there were Edur overseeing those Letherii who got to power in the other big cities [like Brohl Handar in Drene[?]]. The problem was, that the Edur weren't used to this kind of thing/ didn't have any experience with these things as well as intrigue. They tried. And failed. Shit happens.

Additionally, may Edur didn't want to conquer Lether in the first place. IIRC, it never was Hannan Mosag's initial plan. He wanted a unified people, strong enough to hold against a possible Letherii invasion, not the other way round.
Thus, they were unmotivated to about the whole affair. Then why bother? As Edur seem to be prone to, many suppressed thoughts about what might happen - if they thought about it at all - and tried to get the best out of the situation [a lot of half-Edur babies was the result].
We even read about how Bruthen trana and some others prayed for Brys Beddict's return, so that they could rid themselves of Lether and go back to the north.

I'd say, to conquer something AND hold it, you'd have to be willing to do so, eh?

[Iconik]

Yes but even Hannan knew that certain people of power were not going to be able to hold their positions if his plan was going to be realized. Namely...the Sengar family entire.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Iconik, on 04 March 2010 - 07:20 AM, said:

Yes but even Hannan knew that certain people of power were not going to be able to hold their positions if his plan was going to be realized. Namely...the Sengar family entire.

hold on, don't think i'm getting this statement, but are you saying that the sengar family would have... lost their positions? if hannan mosags plan to raise a wall against the letherii had succeeded? had rhulad not died and come back to life? cuz that doesn't make sense, they probably would have been heroes.

[KeithF]

A number of other people have already pointed it out, but in the real world conquerors quite often put natives in positions of power, especially if there's an established bureaucracy that would need a lot of people to administer - not every conquering country/empire/other political body is interested in crushing or remaking its conquests wholesale. I agree that the portrayal of the Edur as uncaring aristocrats trapped inside the Lether political system in RG jars a bit with their portrayal as RARR RESISTANCE IS FUTILE conquerors in MT, but I interpret that as, essentially, reality and their own nature catching up with them. In MT they were on a kind of crusade; by the time of RG the momentum of that crusade has run out and they're stuck as nominal rulers of a large empire that they don't really know how to run and aren't really interested in learning how to.

[haroos]

they never had manpower enough of their own.
and let's not forget the whole edur conquest was based around rhulad, and his so-callled life-and-onwards powers.
all the humans had to do was get around him, and manage him, and the power shifted to those around him.
i think it was easily done because the edur simply didn't live with such corrupt ways of life, so they didn't understand
it for what it realy was.

btw, the CG in this manipulated events, although i never quite realized why.
i doubt that it was realy to get the sword to karsa.
i think he wants the gods to fight, and in doing so buy time from another chaining, maybe buy enough time to be freed completly.

[Kanubis]

Remember that Rhulad was intensely paranoid and distrusted his own people quite a bit. The two closest to him, Trull and Fear, were seen as betrayers. The next two, Binadas and his dad, were away with the fleets. He seemed to feel as alienated from his own people as the Lether.

Perhaps more importantly, if you read the scenes with the first concubine (Nissal was it?) he clearly wants to be a benevolent ruler than an outright tyrant. Remember the scene where Nissal witnesses him trying to settle civilian disputes as fairly as he could?

Thirdly, the Crippled God still has power over him, and among other reasons he probably liked the situation with the Lether because it kept Mossag at a distance from Rhulad.




It all comes down to Rhulad thought. You can't look at any model from history and compare it to an insane serial resurectee with the complexion of money...

[koryk]

Another example, close to my heart, is the takeover of the Picts by the Scots. Soon after Kenneth McAlpin became king of both Scots and Picts, the Picts disappear from history. But is is very obvious that there was no mass genocide, in fact the very opposite, that the Picts formed the majority of the new kingdom but were prepared on the whole (there are always exceptions) to tolerate their new aristocracy as long as it worked on their behalf. In fact, in the new Scotland it was the original Scots areas that were to cause most problems locally, while the majority Pictish population provided the bulk of fighting men in the wars against England, happy to be led by old Scottish Celtic leaders or the Scoto-Norman ruling class introduced by David I.
One could go even further and equate the Edur rule of the Letherii to the brief dominance of Scottish politicians that James VI brought with him to England at the Union of Crowns, and it was several decades before the English influence on the monarch became dominant.
In short, there are loads of real life examples of a small ruling elite from a rival culture managing, for a short time, to lead a larger civilisation, until eventually the law of large numbers takes over.