[tiptopper]

I forgot where but it was mentioned that the kind of the jaghut was sitting on his thrown frozen and rotting. Im pretty sure that i am just stupidly thick and not getting this but at the end when Hood came back he broke through an ice coating so to speak and stood up. Is it safe to assume that Hood was the king of the Jaghut before he became Hood.

[Sinisdar Toste]

yes i believe so. though i think its king of the ice hold, not, strictly speaking, the jaghut.

[foolio]

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I forgot where but it was mentioned that the kind of the jaghut was sitting on his thrown frozen and rotting

I could be wrong, as always, but i think that reference is in the first part of Midnight tides, when feather witch is doing her first reading. I say this because, it looks real familiar and I am currently doing a re-read of the series and am about 100 pages into Midnight tides. It kind of jumped out at me as well.

[HoosierDaddy]

It's in Reaper's Gale, when Hedge is crossing the plane of tundra, following behind one of the 7 Unbound. He finds the hill of Jaghut upon which a throne sets and a Jaghut sits upon it.

[foolio]

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It's in Reaper's Gale, when Hedge is crossing the plane of tundra, following behind one of the 7 Unbound. He finds the hill of Jaghut upon which a throne sets and a Jaghut sits upon it.

That is the actual scene that makes the line make sense. But I think the line he is talking about is actually in MT. Maybe I missunderstood though.

[tiptopper]

but the point is there that somehow Hood was the king of the jaghut right? and is he now mortal or still undead just not kind of death

[HoosierDaddy]

The actual line from the cedance reading in Midnight Tides by Feather Witch is:

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"And upon the Throne of Ice sits Death, cowled and frost-rimed, stealer of caring, to shatter the anxious shackles of mortal life."

Pg, 61 Midnight Tides MMPB, Bantam Edition.

Hood is the King of Omtose Phellack, but not necessarily the King of the Jaghut. He was also known as the Death-Wanderer at one time. Ancient Wu Jaghuttian society is about as vague as it gets, so whether or not there was a "kingdom" of Jaghut at one time is in doubt. We do know that Hood led the Jaghut in a war against death so, so it's obvious he was a leader. As befits the Ruler of the Ice Hold.

Edit: I'd read it as he never died, and is now mortal again.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 03 March 2010 - 03:09 AM

[Aptorian]

Before he became the ruler of death he was almost certainly an ascendant, meaning that death is just a transition, when he returns from death I don't necessarily think that he's going to come back to life, more than it will be a strong Jaghut ascendant (Tyrant?) soul reinhabiting it's old shell.

The 14 jaghut warriors did not come back to life, but then again their return was a bit different.

[Gathras]

Well I think Hood is now the way he was before he became the God of Death. Since we see him on the throne of Ice and considering what Feather Witch said in the reading that mentioned before we can pretty much assume that he was special compared to other Jaghuts. Whether he was a Tyrant or some kind of ruler/ascendant among them I cannot say but its is possible.

And well he isn't mortal since he is a Jaghut (smart ass mode off)

[foolio]

Are the 14 undead Jaghut mionions of Whiskeyjacks? And they certainly seemed to forgive hood quickly. There was a part where they seemed to have a horrible opinion of him, then he asks forgiveness and they totally about face and seem to welcome him.

This post has been edited by foolio: 04 March 2010 - 07:07 PM

[Abyss]

 H.D., on 03 March 2010 - 03:08 AM, said:

...Hood is the King of Omtose Phellack, but not necessarily the King of the Jaghut.

Not how i take it. A lot of the prophetic language is figurative. Speculation runs that Hood was the leader of the Jaghut army in the war on death. The war failed, the jaghut were destroyed as a civilization, but somehow the Jaghut leader ascended to the role of 'Hood, gatekeeper of death'. we don't actually know that he was to OP what Shadowthrone is to Meanas. in fact, elder Warrens don't generally seem to have 'Kings'. even Shadowthrone is more of a gatekeeper to Shadow than the ruler of the shattered elder warren.

So king of the jaghut, yes, but not kind of OP.

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...I'd read it as he never died, and is now mortal again.

when Hedge finds the dead Jaghut on the throne in RG, we assumed that was Hood's body. DoD confirmed this.

BUT, the 14 Jaghut soldiers, and Raest back in GotM, are always ref'd as 'undead', as opposed to say Ganath, Huntress or Gothos who are very old but very much alive.

That said, i think 'undead' in the context of jaghuts isn't the same as say, the dead Mapmaker the TTG found, or Toc as of DoD, who are well and truly dead but animate because an outside power has invested them - it's that the body has died and the soul's power is keeping the body going. The Tlan Imass are similar (irony) but it's the Ritual of Tellan that keeps them going.

 Aptorian, on 03 March 2010 - 04:57 AM, said:

...The 14 jaghut warriors did not come back to life, but then again their return was a bit different.

as far as we know, they are 'dead but still going' jaghut. Bodies damaged beyond life, but 'souls' refuse to leave.

 Gathras, on 04 March 2010 - 08:19 AM, said:

...And well he isn't mortal since he is a Jaghut (smart ass mode off)

Not so smart ass actually - Jaghut simply are not 'mortal' in the sense that average humans are. They are pretty close to immortal, immensely powerful, and if their bodies are damaged, they can keep them going or jump into another one.

Which sort of explains why the lack of a satisfying afterlife was so problematic to them - when it's THAT hard to die, you're going to be pretty pissed when you do and it's like, boring or something.

 foolio, on 04 March 2010 - 07:06 PM, said:

Are the 14 undead Jaghut mionions of Whiskeyjacks? And they certainly seemed to forgive hood quickly. There was a part where they seemed to have a horrible opinion of him, then he asks forgiveness and they totally about face and seem to welcome him.

Not minions, allies. WJ's pretty clear that they are friends, not servants or anything like that.

And i'm not so sure about forgiveness. I reread that scene a couple of times and it's a little ambiguous about just how happy they are to see Hood. Sure, they were there waiting for him and he did the drop and beg thing, but even so, i didn't take that as 'we're all friends and group hug now'.

- Abyss, sensitive soul.

[HoosierDaddy]

 Abyss, on 04 March 2010 - 07:56 PM, said:

 H.D., on 03 March 2010 - 03:08 AM, said:

...Hood is the King of Omtose Phellack, but not necessarily the King of the Jaghut.

Not how i take it. A lot of the prophetic language is figurative. Speculation runs that Hood was the leader of the Jaghut army in the war on death. The war failed, the jaghut were destroyed as a civilization, but somehow the Jaghut leader ascended to the role of 'Hood, gatekeeper of death'. we don't actually know that he was to OP what Shadowthrone is to Meanas. in fact, elder Warrens don't generally seem to have 'Kings'. even Shadowthrone is more of a gatekeeper to Shadow than the ruler of the shattered elder warren.

So king of the jaghut, yes, but not kind of OP.

Where is he ever referred to as a king of jaghut? Leader, certainly. But king would denote some form of civilization. As far as I recall, the only thing we know about Jaghut civilization was that they were grouped together a long, long time ago but the fight against Death pretty much destroyed their society. Are you simply denoting war-leader = possible king?

As for no King of Omtose Phellack:

"The Throne of Ice was dying. Is dying still. There was - is - nothing left to rule, ghost."

It's possible that this supports both notions, either, and neither.

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...I'd read it as he never died, and is now mortal again.

when Hedge finds the dead Jaghut on the throne in RG, we assumed that was Hood's body. DoD confirmed this.

BUT, the 14 Jaghut soldiers, and Raest back in GotM, are always ref'd as 'undead', as opposed to say Ganath, Huntress or Gothos who are very old but very much alive.

That said, i think 'undead' in the context of jaghuts isn't the same as say, the dead Mapmaker the TTG found, or Toc as of DoD, who are well and truly dead but animate because an outside power has invested them - it's that the body has died and the soul's power is keeping the body going. The Tlan Imass are similar (irony) but it's the Ritual of Tellan that keeps them going.

However,

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"That thing back there's not still alive, is it?"
"No. The spirit left.

If we go by your example, Hood simply reanimates his "body" (it is described as a corpse, but what's a body without a soul in it but a corpse?", doesn't that fly in the face of what you later say about the near immortality of Jaghut? His body is rotting from want of use and time, not necessarily death. I don't think he died at all. Ever in that form. He was dragnippured in his ascendant King of Death form, but wakes up in his old, never died Jaghut form. He reinvigorates his original self with his soul after escaping Dragnipur, imo.

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 Aptorian, on 03 March 2010 - 04:57 AM, said:

...The 14 jaghut warriors did not come back to life, but then again their return was a bit different.

as far as we know, they are 'dead but still going' jaghut. Bodies damaged beyond life, but 'souls' refuse to leave.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't those Jaghut come from Hood's Realm? How else would Whiskeyjack call upon them for a favor? Unless of course, they had simply gone somewhere else. But dead Jaghut wish for eradication don't they? So, where did they come from, if not Hood's realm and therefore from death. Why are Jaghut any different than other servants of death, like Toc or Baudin or the Seguleh 2nd?

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 Gathras, on 04 March 2010 - 08:19 AM, said:

...And well he isn't mortal since he is a Jaghut (smart ass mode off)

Not so smart ass actually - Jaghut simply are not 'mortal' in the sense that average humans are. They are pretty close to immortal, immensely powerful, and if their bodies are damaged, they can keep them going or jump into another one.

Which sort of explains why the lack of a satisfying afterlife was so problematic to them - when it's THAT hard to die, you're going to be pretty pissed when you do and it's like, boring or something.

Pretty close does not mean equal. If you are not immortal, you are mortal. Jaghut can die, some are just harder to kill than others.

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 foolio, on 04 March 2010 - 07:06 PM, said:

Are the 14 undead Jaghut mionions of Whiskeyjacks? And they certainly seemed to forgive hood quickly. There was a part where they seemed to have a horrible opinion of him, then he asks forgiveness and they totally about face and seem to welcome him.

Not minions, allies. WJ's pretty clear that they are friends, not servants or anything like that.

And i'm not so sure about forgiveness. I reread that scene a couple of times and it's a little ambiguous about just how happy they are to see Hood. Sure, they were there waiting for him and he did the drop and beg thing, but even so, i didn't take that as 'we're all friends and group hug now'.

- Abyss, sensitive soul.

I'd state it's about mutual respect with Whiskeyjack and the Jaghut. Everybody loves the Iskar Jarak.

When they stated that they wouldn't have done what they were asked to do by Whiskeyjack if Hood had done the asking, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say they have a beef with him. Thus, that ambiguous scene could as easily end in a group hug as it could with a bunch of stab wounds.

[worry]

I don't have the quote handy, but I believe one of the 14 Jaghut states specifically that they are not from Hood's realm, but doesn't explain further.

[Aptorian]

If they didn't come from Hoods realm they probably came out of the Elder Death realm connected with the Jaghut Bridge of Death.

[Hetan]

Regarding Hood's body - it is said in Reapers Gale that the Jaghut could surrender their place in this world and that their souls could travel to their Hold leaving their bodies behind - so that explains what Hood did, and ascended as well, to become King of HHD and ruler of the Ice Hold.

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And, looking out from mortal flesh once more, Hood, who had once been the Lord of Death, found arrayed before him fourteen Jaghut warriors.

The fourteen undead Jaghut are clearly different - they died.

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The last survivors of the only army of the Jaghut, who had not survived at all, then laughed once more.

The Jaghut did not have kings or leaders, just tyrants who were not tolerated even by their own people, which is what makes it so extraordinary that they chose a leader and went to war at all. I also think the betrayal that they talk about

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"And should you see Hood," said the swordwoman, "remind him of how his soldiers never faltered. Even in his moment of betrayal. We never faltered."

refers to Hood having taken the throne of Ice. After all, to them it would have appeared as if he was choosing to become a tyrant himself.

[Aptorian]

 Hetan, on 05 March 2010 - 01:57 PM, said:

Quote

"And should you see Hood," said the swordwoman, "remind him of how his soldiers never faltered. Even in his moment of betrayal. We never faltered."

refers to Hood having taken the throne of Ice. After all, to them it would have appeared as if he was choosing to become a tyrant himself.

Does it refer to his role as king of the ice hold, or could it perchance refer to him becoming god of death? After all, I assume it was Hood, the lord of hosts, who lead the war against death.

[foolio]

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"And should you see Hood," said the swordwoman, "remind him of how his soldiers never faltered. Even in his moment of betrayal. We never faltered."refers to Hood having taken the throne of Ice. After all, to them it would have appeared as if he was choosing to become a tyrant himself.

I thought it refered to him becoming the Lord of Death after leading the Jaghut against death.

[D'rek]

 Hetan, on 05 March 2010 - 01:57 PM, said:

Regarding Hood's body - it is said in Reapers Gale that the Jaghut could surrender their place in this world and that their souls could travel to their Hold leaving their bodies behind

This is also spoken of it MT, some Jaghut in Letheras did it to try and hide from the T'lan Imass.

[worry]

 Aptorian, on 05 March 2010 - 08:35 PM, said:

 Hetan, on 05 March 2010 - 01:57 PM, said:

Quote

"And should you see Hood," said the swordwoman, "remind him of how his soldiers never faltered. Even in his moment of betrayal. We never faltered."

refers to Hood having taken the throne of Ice. After all, to them it would have appeared as if he was choosing to become a tyrant himself.

Does it refer to his role as king of the ice hold, or could it perchance refer to him becoming god of death? After all, I assume it was Hood, the lord of hosts, who lead the war against death.

This makes a lot of sense. The Jaghut feel betrayed by him becoming Death. He of course may have seen it as the only way to win the war. Knowing they wouldn't get it but still sacrificing his reputation to fulfill some honorable motive. Maybe. I get the sense that SE really likes Rashomon.

[Aptorian]

 D, on 05 March 2010 - 09:56 PM, said:

 Hetan, on 05 March 2010 - 01:57 PM, said:

Regarding Hood's body - it is said in Reapers Gale that the Jaghut could surrender their place in this world and that their souls could travel to their Hold leaving their bodies behind

This is also spoken of it MT, some Jaghut in Letheras did it to try and hide from the T'lan Imass.

I think it was implied in that part that the Imass was aware of the Jaghut doing this and that they accepted the solution.