[waylander001]

 Theotendo, on 03 September 2010 - 01:26 PM, said:

Uh, Held is Tiste Edur.

is this definite????

just found the passage in DoD where Bugg does refer to Seren's child as the "knight of shadow" - also when Seren tells him to summon the High King of Shadow realm to help protect her and the child Bugg puts her off by simply saying "against the Errant I am enough" .... so i guess the baby in seren's womb is not that of the Eres'als after all

so worrywort to answer your previous post then it seems yes 2 of Trulls little ones ruling house shadow - Seren+trulls child as future knight of shadow .... and possible this beget of the Eres'al as the High King??????

This post has been edited by waylander001: 03 September 2010 - 02:06 PM

[Abyss]

So....

Seren/Trull's kid = Knight of Shadow to be according to Bugg, still in womb.

Eres'al/Trull's kid = Shadow Throne sitter to be, unborn according to Bottle in TB but the Eres'al being a time traveller, could be anyone.

Kettle = 'child of the eres', also has an FA soul, was undead but got better, carried Azath seed, died again (maybe).

Held = origin unknown, significance unknown.

Grub = may be linked to the Eres'al, Mokra, D'riss and the Chain of Dogs. Also supposed to be the future First Sword of the late Empire.


Thus, all we really know for certain is that the Eres'al is a time-travelling skanky ho.


- Abyss, ...is just saying...

[waylander001]

Going back to the original post in this thread I actually think in re-reading it that the poem also refers to Bottle and his first meeting with the Eres'al. I have typed the whole passage below that I have been referencing from the Bonehunters because there seem to be lots of links between the poem Icarium hears and this passage.

Basically this takes place just before the command meeting and battle of Y-Gatan, also just after Bottle has sent his "lizards" into the hut to spy on said meeting - it's the first time the Eres'al appears to Bottle:

Quote

He met her eyes and was shaken to his very core. This was no mindless creature. Eres'al. The yearning in those dark, stunningly beautiful eyes made him mentally reel.
'All right' he whispered, and slowly sent his senses questing into that womb, into the spirit growing within it.
For every abomination, there must emerge it's answer. It's enemy, it's counter balance. Here within this Eres'al is such an answer. To a distant abomination, the corruption of a once-innocent spirit. Innocence must be reborn. Yet.. I can see so little... not human, not even of this world, barring what the Eres'al herself brought to the union. Thus, an intruder. From another realm. a realm bereft of innocence. To make them part of this world, one of their kind must be born... in this way. their blood must be drawn into this worlds flow of blood.
But why an Eres'al? Because... god's below.. because she is the last innocent creature, the last innocent ancestor of our line. After her... the degredation of spirit begins. The shifting of perspective, the seperation from all else, the carving of borders - in the ground, in the minds way of seeing. After her, there is only ...us..

The realization - the recognition - was devastating. Bottle pulled his hand away. But it was too late. He knew too many things now. The Father... Tiste Edur. the child to come... the only pure candidate for a new Throne of Shadow - a throne commanding a healed realm.
And it would have so many enemies. So many....

Quote

Is ther also a ppossibility the boy talked about in the poem is Bottle and not Grub? We know that the Eres'al first started "kissing" Bottle right before the battle at Y-Gatan - of course Y-Gatan also would explain the references to "Fire" and "smoke". I also think the "lizards" part refers to Bottle's Lizards that he had spying on everyone before he started using the rats after the Inferno at Y-Gatan (forgot he used the lizards first to spy on the command meetings). And lastly "Fathers" as in Trull being the father of the child in the Eres'als womb.

This post has been edited by waylander001: 03 September 2010 - 04:39 PM

[worry]

So Bottle isn't the father of any of these babies? Perhaps Bottle IS the baby inside Eresal that he himself senses, and so IS the son of she and Trull, and that explains why he was raised only by his "grandmother" or something like that. Just a wild thought based on absolutely nothing.

I do pretty much believe Grub is the boy in the poem, and that his time with T'amber explains the Eresal part. The girl is Sinn, from that silence part. And the baby is Seren & Trull's and he cannot be held because he isn't born yet. The actual Held is just a baby to me. And Kettle is probably Trull/Eresal's baby. Maybe Bottle is the father of Grub, which explains the "lizards and Fathers" line.

[Excellence]

We know the pattern by now.

By the next book, Pedac's child, the new Knight of Shadows, will be 5yrs old or even ten.

[Aptorian]

It's a shadow dragon.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I can't help but feel Seren would notice someone stuffing a child into her, especially a furry smelly ape-woman...

Uhhhm... As for Grub, I don't think he is a child of Eres either, other than in the spiritual sense of being so wonderfully earth-aspected, he's just not fuzzy 'nuff.

I always assumed Kettle was going to be the ruler of the healed shadow realm, or one of her souls. Unfulfilled potential isn't an unknown theme around here

[Roldom]

with the part about grub being to young to know the kiss of the eres, maybe he gets down n kinky with her l8er on in his life, and perhaps that kind of relationship leaves a mark on him retroactivly, her being a time traveler and all

[Ceda Cicero]

 Abyss, on 03 September 2010 - 02:27 PM, said:

Held = origin unknown, significance unknown.

I know this is a shade off topic, but hell, we're talking about all the kiddos here and someone else opened the door.

I saw a theory floating around not long ago that held is somehow intrinsically linked tCG/the tCG's heart. SOMETHING makes the Snake significant, aside from Badalle's poetry and SE's thematic motives for wanting them in the story... Also, the FA are in Kolanse primarily to syphen power from Kaminsod's heart, and the FA clearly wanted something from the Snake other than mere destruction (else why go to the trouble of planting a spy in their midst and monitoring them?)

[iRFNA]

Brayderal's purpose was just to get to the "head" of the snake and sabotage them, as far as I can tell. The pursuing group of FA couldn't catch up with the kids because the kids ran away while the FA were slaughtering other ones. Think about it, the FA reach the kids, yell "KNEEL!", and the ones that are far enough away to not hear/get affected take off running and the unfortunate ones at the back die, making another rib of the snake. And so on and so on, but by sneaking a kid-looking FA up through the whole snake to the front, they would in theory be able to perform a pincer attack of sorts. Of course, doing that as soon as possible would mean that there was still a bulk of kids between the head and tail that would scatter in all directions and complicate matters, so I would assume that the point was to either wait for the kids to die out or kill so far up the tail that a two-pronged strike could finish matters immediately. Or maybe brayderal just sucked and screwed up royally at whatever she was supposed to do.

[Ceda Cicero]

 iRFNA, on 05 October 2010 - 11:29 PM, said:

Brayderal's purpose was just to get to the "head" of the snake and sabotage them, as far as I can tell. The pursuing group of FA couldn't catch up with the kids because the kids ran away while the FA were slaughtering other ones. Think about it, the FA reach the kids, yell "KNEEL!", and the ones that are far enough away to not hear/get affected take off running and the unfortunate ones at the back die, making another rib of the snake. And so on and so on, but by sneaking a kid-looking FA up through the whole snake to the front, they would in theory be able to perform a pincer attack of sorts. Of course, doing that as soon as possible would mean that there was still a bulk of kids between the head and tail that would scatter in all directions and complicate matters, so I would assume that the point was to either wait for the kids to die out or kill so far up the tail that a two-pronged strike could finish matters immediately. Or maybe brayderal just sucked and screwed up royally at whatever she was supposed to do.

I don't have a reference on hand right now, but I had the impression that the FA following the Snake were holding back, waiting for Brayderal to do, well, something before they pounced on the Snake. No matter how detained the FA were in slaughtering other folks/generally kicking the crap out of Kolanse, one would think it wouldn't take them too long to catch up to a ragged band of kids. You know, being enormously tall and multijointed and nimble and all that. Also, why on earth would they think they needed to go to the trouble of planning an elaborate pincer attack/ambush on a kids? These are FA we're talking about, some of the original and baddest of baddies. Unless, I suppose, they knew full-well what Badalle was capable of and were holding back - but I don't remember that being the case at all.

Still, like I said, no references. So you may be right. I still like to think that Held in particular has some significance, and I don't think a theory connecting him to tCG is far fetched considering the kids come from Kolanse.

[Abyss]

 Ciceronian, on 06 October 2010 - 04:38 PM, said:

...one would think it wouldn't take them too long to catch up to a ragged band of kids. You know, being enormously tall and multijointed and nimble and all that. ...

The point is made that the kids exceeded anything the FA expected of them. The FA are quite shocked by this. They also had a head start - the FA caught up, they weren't right on them from the start of the exodus.

I tend to think that there was more going on with the Snake than just the obvious kids running for their lives and doing anything to survive. Whether it was Liosan/FA blood, or group ascension or Badalle is literally THAT powerful a Mokra High Mage that she kept them moving or Held is way more than she seems, something else kept it going beyond sheer stubborn refuse-to-die-and-be-eaten-by-my-peers.

[iRFNA]

 Ciceronian, on 06 October 2010 - 04:38 PM, said:

I don't have a reference on hand right now, but I had the impression that the FA following the Snake were holding back, waiting for Brayderal to do, well, something before they pounced on the Snake. No matter how detained the FA were in slaughtering other folks/generally kicking the crap out of Kolanse, one would think it wouldn't take them too long to catch up to a ragged band of kids. You know, being enormously tall and multijointed and nimble and all that. Also, why on earth would they think they needed to go to the trouble of planning an elaborate pincer attack/ambush on a kids? These are FA we're talking about, some of the original and baddest of baddies. Unless, I suppose, they knew full-well what Badalle was capable of and were holding back - but I don't remember that being the case at all.

Badalle was, as far as I can tell, a very unpleasant surprise. They had no idea what she was capable of, but brayderal was starting to realize it by the end.

I'm not saying they couldn't murder those kids in an instant, if those damn kids were standing still. The snake was long, very very long. It had a ton of kids, while the story mostly focused on those at the very front. Only that small group survived, the entire rest of the time the FA were catching up to the end of the snake and murdering a large group of children, over and over. It's the murdering part that was slowing them down, not any amazing speed by the children. The only amazing part was their persistence and refusal to give up; they continued fleeing with an endurance far beyond the FA had anticipated. They assumed that eventually the kids would stop running away so they could slaughter the entire snake in one go.

[Sinisdar Toste]

where is it stated that the FA were ever killing off the tail of the snake, except when they tried to right at the end? i just don't think that it ever happened

[Hetan]

The Quitters thought that the children would all die in the glass desert. The only one who followed the Snake initially was Brayderal.

Quote

"When they had set out to deliver peace upon the last of the south-dwellers – these children – they had numbered twelve. Among them, three of the original five women still lived, and but one of the seven men. Inquisitor Sever accepted responsibility for this tragic error in judgement. Of course, who could have imagined that thousands of helpless children could march league upon league through this tortured land, bereft of shelter, their hands empty? Outlasting the wild dogs, the cannibal raiders among the last of the surviving adults, and the wretched parasites swarming the ground and in the skies above – no, not one Inquisitor could have anticipated this terrible will to survive."

Quote

Brayderal was not like the others, not the same as Rutt, or pernicious Badalle with Saddic ever at her side. She alone possessed the legacy of the Inquisitors, shining bright beneath her almost translucent skin. And among all the others, only Badalle suspected the truth. I am a child of the Quitters. I am here to complete their work.
She had finally seen her kin on their trail, and now wondered why they did not simply stride into the midst of the Chal Managal, to take up the last of these pathetic lives.