[D'rek]

Grub!

No. Really.

Quote

In [Icarium's] mind, even as it crumbled on all sides, he could hear a new voice, a sweet voice, one had had never heard before.

'I dream we are three
Rutt who is not Rutt and Held
Who cannot be held-
The girl knows silence
Is a game
The boy knows the kiss
Of the Eres'al
The mother of wheeling stars
Who seeds all time
Through me they hear your need
I am the voice of the unborn
In Crystal I see fire and I see smoke
I see lizards and Fathers
In crystal I see the boy and the girl.
Heal the wound, God,
Your children are close-'

The girl and the boy are Sinn and Grub, of course. Sinn, who was mute for a while around most people, knows silence is a game. And Grub knows the kiss of the Eres'al??!! I'm assuming here of course that Grub is probably still a bit too young for the Eres'al's tastes for her to be kissing him the way she would Bottle (since he is supposed to be like 9 at this point, despite his enormous growth spurts), so instead what if she were kissing him affectionately as a child?

It could definitely explain quite a few weird things about him. And while Grub may be the supposed manifestation of the Chain of Dogs, he does still have to come from somewhere, just like Sinn was a little girl being tutored by Fayelle (and a Tanno) at some point. And while Grub does seem more of a mage-type in DoD, he definitely showed a more warlock-type affinity in HoC and tBH with Nil and Nether. His memory-blanks and appearances in crucial places are somewhat similar to the Eres'al's sudden appearances, too, I might add, especially the two of them appearing together in Malaz City and Grub showing Lostara the Eres'al's posession of T'amber.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 22 February 2010 - 03:43 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

I read "kiss" there as having been basically "touched" and it leaves an after-effect of abilities. Such as knowing that if the Bonehunters don't wait however much longer they will all die (TB). I consider it more of an artistic flourish to the poem like structure of the statement.

Unless that's what you are saying and I'm reading you as saying Grub is literally the eres'al's child.

[D'rek]

 H.D., on 22 February 2010 - 03:50 AM, said:

I read "kiss" there as having been basically "touched" and it leaves an after-effect of abilities. Such as knowing that if the Bonehunters don't wait however much longer they will all die (TB). I consider it more of an artistic flourish to the poem like structure of the statement.

Unless that's what you are saying and I'm reading you as saying Grub is literally the eres'al's child.

I'm saying it literally in my crazy voice and what-you're-saying in my more rational voice.

[Sinisdar Toste]

but how? isn't the eres'al child sitting in seren pedacs womb right now?

[D'rek]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 22 February 2010 - 03:58 AM, said:

but how? isn't the eres'al child sitting in seren pedacs womb right now?

What, no, don't be silly. The child in Seren's womb is from when Trull and her got busy right as soon as they go to Lether in RG. The Eres'al, on the other hand, got busy with Trull way back in HoC in different circumstances (Trull does seem to get girls pregnant on the first try every time, doesn't he? And then never has a second time...). Of course the Eres'al seduces/rapes lots of guys (like Bottle!) so anyone could be the father.

[amphibian]

 D, on 22 February 2010 - 04:01 AM, said:

What, no, don't be silly. The child in Seren's womb is from when Trull and her got busy right as soon as they go to Lether in RG. The Eres'al, on the other hand, got busy with Trull way back in HoC in different circumstances (Trull does seem to get girls pregnant on the first try every time, doesn't he? And then never has a second time...). Of course the Eres'al seduces/rapes lots of guys (like Bottle!) so anyone could be the father.

It's because TRULL IS A MAN!!

Oh wait, he's a Tiste Edur and a being that evolved in an entirely different world, so pregnancy doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Ugh.

I like your theory, D'rek. From now on, Grub = Trull, Eres'al and Keneb's son for me.

[Abyss]

It's plausible, tho one could also read

Quote

'I dream we are three
Rutt who is not Rutt and Held
Who cannot be held-
The girl knows silence
Is a game
The boy knows the kiss
Of the Eres'al

As a ref to Rutt.

But the 'three' ref does harken back to Gamet's vision in HoC that included Grub, tho with Nil and Nether, and the chapter opener (same book i think) that ref's only Grub.


- Abyss, times three.

[D'rek]

 Abyss, on 22 February 2010 - 04:13 PM, said:

It's plausible, tho one could also read

Quote

'I dream we are three
Rutt who is not Rutt and Held
Who cannot be held-
The girl knows silence
Is a game
The boy knows the kiss
Of the Eres'al

As a ref to Rutt.

But the 'three' ref does harken back to Gamet's vision in HoC that included Grub, tho with Nil and Nether, and the chapter opener (same book i think) that ref's only Grub.


- Abyss, times three.

Well, just before the part I quoted is FW talking to Iccy about children in his warren, and just after is Grub and Sinn appearing to build a giant azath and blow up some skykeeps...

[Vengeance]

 D, on 22 February 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

Grub!

No. Really.

Quote

In [Icarium's] mind, even as it crumbled on all sides, he could hear a new voice, a sweet voice, one had had never heard before.

'I dream we are three
Rutt who is not Rutt and Held
Who cannot be held-
The girl knows silence
Is a game
The boy knows the kiss
Of the Eres'al
The mother of wheeling stars
Who seeds all time
Through me they hear your need
I am the voice of the unborn
In Crystal I see fire and I see smoke
I see lizards and Fathers
In crystal I see the boy and the girl.
Heal the wound, God,
Your children are close-'

The girl and the boy are Sinn and Grub, of course. Sinn, who was mute for a while around most people, knows silence is a game. And Grub knows the kiss of the Eres'al??!! I'm assuming here of course that Grub is probably still a bit too young for the Eres'al's tastes for her to be kissing him the way she would Bottle (since he is supposed to be like 9 at this point, despite his enormous growth spurts), so instead what if she were kissing him affectionately as a child?

It could definitely explain quite a few weird things about him. And while Grub may be the supposed manifestation of the Chain of Dogs, he does still have to come from somewhere, just like Sinn was a little girl being tutored by Fayelle (and a Tanno) at some point. And while Grub does seem more of a mage-type in DoD, he definitely showed a more warlock-type affinity in HoC and tBH with Nil and Nether. His memory-blanks and appearances in crucial places are somewhat similar to the Eres'al's sudden appearances, too, I might add, especially the two of them appearing together in Malaz City and Grub showing Lostara the Eres'al's posession of T'amber.

This is a solid theory I think. Grub being at the Chain of Dogs can be easily explained as it is known that the Eres'al can time travel. Grub also has an affinity with the earth which if the Eres'al was his mother would be easily explained.

[iRFNA]

Quote

'The you on the outside, Kettle, were you a child?'
'Oh no. I was tall. Not as tall as you. And I had to wear my hood up, so no-one could see how different I was.'

...

'They said I'd been prepared from birth. That I was a true child of Eres. And that I was the answer to the Seventh Closure, because I had the blood of kin.'

Another random Eres-spawn or Trull's kid? One of kettle's previous souls is the only confirmed child of Eres in the books.

[worry]

the boy could just mean Bottle, who's also still very young and knows the kiss of the Eres'al. he's MIA, though i have a hunch he's with Quick Ben (who i think "pulled" him out with him wherever he went) rather than with the BBs remnant.

[D'rek]

 iRFNA, on 22 February 2010 - 08:36 PM, said:

Quote

'The you on the outside, Kettle, were you a child?'
'Oh no. I was tall. Not as tall as you. And I had to wear my hood up, so no-one could see how different I was.'

...

'They said I'd been prepared from birth. That I was a true child of Eres. And that I was the answer to the Seventh Closure, because I had the blood of kin.'

Another random Eres-spawn or Trull's kid? One of kettle's previous souls is the only confirmed child of Eres in the books.

That and the first Nerek is supposed to be a child of the Eres'al. I suppose if I had to use 'em all I would say the Trull-Eres'al kid is the first Nerek, Grub is a Bottle-Eres'al kid (though we don't know that Bottle ever actually got full down-and-dirty with her, if nott hen some other fater) and Kettle is the last baby of the Tasse. But that's all speculatory of course.

 worrywort, on 25 February 2010 - 12:08 PM, said:

the boy could just mean Bottle, who's also still very young and knows the kiss of the Eres'al. he's MIA, though i have a hunch he's with Quick Ben (who i think "pulled" him out with him wherever he went) rather than with the BBs remnant.

 worrywort, on 25 February 2010 - 12:08 PM, said:

the boy could just mean Bottle, who's also still very young and knows the kiss of the Eres'al. he's MIA, though i have a hunch he's with Quick Ben (who i think "pulled" him out with him wherever he went) rather than with the BBs remnant.

It *could*, but that would be completely random since this is a poem going on in Icarium's mind about children in Icarium's warrens...

[iRFNA]

It seems unlikely that Grub or any other "human looking" person is a child of the Eres'al...

[Jorram]

I think "the kiss" is more metaphorical, kinda like "the touch". I think it just means that whatever powers Grub has are somehow granted by or connected to the Eres'al much in the way she interfered with Bottle and T'amber in varying degree.

Why is she helping them anyway?

[waylander001]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 22 February 2010 - 03:58 AM, said:

but how? isn't the eres'al child sitting in seren pedacs womb right now?

after doing a re-read of Bonehunters i think Toste has a good point - i think the child in Seren's Womb could be that child initially growing in the womb of the eres'al. after Bottle quests into the Eres'al womb in BH he see's the child as being the "only pure candidate for a new throne of shadow - a throne commanding a healed realm" (page 302 transworld pprbck)

is this not apparantly the role that seren+Trull's child now has in the deck??

Bottle also see's the child is needed to [i]"answer a distant abomination, the corruption of a once innocent spirit. Innocence must be reborn"[/i] and that to make them (Edur?) "part of this world, one of their kind must be born... in this way. Their blood must be drawn into this world's flow of blood" ... again i take it he is talking about the edur as he say's they are "intruders. From another realm. A realm bereft of innocence"

bottle goes on to state the Eres'al was only used "because.... god's below... because she is the last innocent creature, the last innocent ancestor of our line. After this ... the degredation of spirit begins... After her - there's only us"

so if an innocent creature was needed to at least conceive the child then the eres'al would be perfect in that respect - hood know's Seren does not even consider herself innocent, maybe she is just to be the birth mother??

Orrrr is Seren's unborn child referred to as the "knight of shadow"?? i cant remember tbh - if thats the case then Trull has some serious half-blood siblings about to come into the world, is his seed being used as the foundation for a new ruling family for a healed shadow realm

This post has been edited by waylander001: 03 September 2010 - 12:08 AM

[waylander001]

i think that sort of makes sense

This post has been edited by waylander001: 03 September 2010 - 12:11 AM

[worry]

To clarify: you are saying that either the baby inside Seren has two moms and two dads (Trull/Bottle and Eres'al/Seren) and there was a major magical transplant, or that there are two babies, both of which will have important Shadow destinies. Is that your jist?

[Aptorian]

What if Bottle sheboinging the Eres'al is what created the Imass, Mr I am my own grandfather?

[Theotendo]

Uh, Held is Tiste Edur.

[waylander001]

 worrywort, on 03 September 2010 - 06:09 AM, said:

To clarify: you are saying that either the baby inside Seren has two moms and two dads (Trull/Bottle and Eres'al/Seren) and there was a major magical transplant, or that there are two babies, both of which will have important Shadow destinies. Is that your jist?

well, the thing is when Bottle quests into the eres'al this time i am referencing - he (as in Bottle) has not yet actually been raped (or sheboinged as Apt' so aptly puts it) by the eres'al, she just leaves him with a guilty smile and a serious hard-on

This post has been edited by waylander001: 03 September 2010 - 02:03 PM