[Johnny Phoenix]

I'm confused about the Elder Races. I know that the K'Chain Chemalle are older than the Jaghut and that the Jaghut are older than the T'Lan Imass. But what about the Tiste? It is said they are an alien race. Does this mean they came from some other dimension like the Crippled God? Is more information given in later books? Seems like since they are children of darkness, light and shadow then they should be the oldest of all.

[Sinisdar Toste]

they are from alien realms and they do claim to be the oldest peoples of all, but that is very suspect as most peoples have things wrong about their past. things do get slightly clearer as you read on but the exact timeline of the elder races, the k'chain, the jaghut, the imass and the forkrul assail is still a matter of contention and speculation for the most part.

i think there's a thread around here with this exact title that tries to answer some of the questions surrounding the elder races timeline

[Aptorian]

Johnny_Phoenix, on 16 February 2010 - 11:52 PM, said:

I'm confused about the Elder Races. I know that the K'Chain Chemalle are older than the Jaghut and that the Jaghut are older than the T'Lan Imass. But what about the Tiste? It is said they are an alien race. Does this mean they came from some other dimension like the Crippled God? Is more information given in later books? Seems like since they are children of darkness, light and shadow then they should be the oldest of all.

When you reach Midnight Tides you're going to get a healthy info dump on Tiste Andii, KCCM and Forkrul Assail.

[Gothos]

Generally speaking, there's more a timeline for prominence on the Founding races, and I wouldn't say there's an accurate timeline possible among all the elder races, since at least some of them come from warrens, and time runs different in warrens. Add to that the usual creation mythos flaws and you've got a whole lot of "damn this makes little sense".

I'd say more but this is the HoC forum, and I wouldn't spoil. Nothing definite though.

[Johnny Phoenix]

Thanks for the replies. Guess I'll just keep reading.

[Johnny Phoenix]

On another note, what about God timelines? These are even more confusing. So first their were the Elder Gods right? Who seem to be referred to as "elder gods" by people in their own time for some reason. Did the elder gods control the Holds? Cuz I'm 1/4 through Midnight Tides and the elder gods seem to be gone or dormant (seeing as how Brys needs to wake one at the point where I'm at). Then what? The new gods and the Houses? Okay, but something I don't understand is who took care of death before Hood? And shouldn't the Houses of Light, Dark and Shadow be the oldest entities of all? Also, are all gods ascendants of a lower race? Fener was always weird to me. Most of the gods are humanoid and about the same size as well, but Fener is this giant boar who's hoof alone was described as gargantuan when he was pulled into the mortal world in DG. I'm assuming this is all supposed to be completely convoluted and shrouded in mystery but I can't help thinking about it.

Or is all of this going to be explained further? lol

[Sinisdar Toste]

explained further, further convoluted, and then some! also, the elder gods don't really have a 'time'. they've been around pretty much forever, they were only worshipped on Wu for a portion of time and they were elder in the time of the holds already. yet togg considers himself their elder in turn.

i try not to worry too much about it

[Aptorian]

I have to be careful where I tread here because you've posted this question in the HoC forum instead of Midnight Tides or later books where we are introduced to a lot of the Elder Concepts like Holds and Elder Gods.

Johnny_Phoenix, on 05 April 2010 - 03:15 AM, said:

On another note, what about God timelines? These are even more confusing. So first their were the Elder Gods right? Who seem to be referred to as "elder gods" by people in their own time for some reason.

The Elder Times signify pretty much all time prior to the coming of the new House System and the Deck of Dragons. If you want a better reference point, think Wandering, Holds, Houses. Houses are new, Holds are probably from around the time the outside Elder Gods (Elementals?) began messing with Wu creating order and making a system, and the age of Wandering is before everything, when there was no magical structure (that we know of) and everything was chaos (not as in the warren, but as it was primitive and raw).

There are two distinct kinds of Elder Gods. There are the special ones that seem to be related and may or may not be some kind of avatars of greater elemental powers. The rest are simply gods that were worshipped during the Elder Times.

Johnny_Phoenix, on 05 April 2010 - 03:15 AM, said:

Did the elder gods control the Holds? Cuz I'm 1/4 through Midnight Tides and the elder gods seem to be gone or dormant (seeing as how Brys needs to wake one at the point where I'm at).

Some of them probably did. You have to remember that just like there are cards in the Deck of Dragon that we do not know or see, there has to have been Tiles that we do not know of or hear about.

Johnny_Phoenix, on 05 April 2010 - 03:15 AM, said:

Then what? The new gods and the Houses? Okay, but something I don't understand is who took care of death before Hood?

This is actually a plot line. In TTH a new historical event is revealed that creates a slew of new questions about Hoods, death and the Elder Races.

Johnny_Phoenix, on 05 April 2010 - 03:15 AM, said:

And shouldn't the Houses of Light, Dark and Shadow be the oldest entities of all?

If you want to believe Tiste propaganda then Dark, Light and Shadow are the first, but later books raise a lot of questions about that origin story (it doesn't hold water).

Johnny_Phoenix, on 05 April 2010 - 03:15 AM, said:

Also, are all gods ascendants of a lower race?

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I'm guessing you're referring to the Elder God conundrum I talk about above. Some old, old gods seem to have come to Wu as gods, but most gods, especially the minor ones are worshipped ascendants yes.

Not quite sure why you'd use the term "lower races" though. Creatures like Jaghut Tyrants, KCCM Matrons, Ascendant Forkrul Assail could be more than a match for the strong Elder Gods.

Johnny_Phoenix, on 05 April 2010 - 03:15 AM, said:

Fener was always weird to me. Most of the gods are humanoid and about the same size as well, but Fener is this giant boar who's hoof alone was described as gargantuan when he was pulled into the mortal world in DG. I'm assuming this is all supposed to be completely convoluted and shrouded in mystery but I can't help thinking about it.

Fener has taken the shape of what he's worshipped like. The Gods can take any shape they like, his followers percieve him as a boar, so he looks like one.

His size and form is not related with his race, it is a manifestation of his strength and power. He is so strong that if he was set loose upon Wu "uncontrolled" it would be like a Mountain size boar trampling around.

Johnny_Phoenix, on 05 April 2010 - 03:15 AM, said:

Or is all of this going to be explained further? lol

Some. Most of it probably not. It is the curse and charm of this series.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 05 April 2010 - 06:16 AM

[MTS]

[quote name='Aptorian' date='05 April 2010 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1270448081' post='746843']
I have to be careful where I tread here because you've posted this question in the HoC forum instead of Midnight Tides or later books where we are introduced to a lot of the Elder Concepts like Holds and Elder Gods.

[quote name='Johnny_Phoenix' date='05 April 2010 - 05:15 AM' timestamp='1270437335' post='746818']
On another note, what about God timelines? These are even more confusing. So first their were the Elder Gods right? Who seem to be referred to as "elder gods" by people in their own time for some reason.
[/quote]

The Elder Times signify pretty much all time prior to the coming of the new House System and the Deck of Dragons. If you want a better reference point, think Wandering, Holds, Houses. Houses are new, Holds are probably from around the time the outside Elder Gods (Elementals?) began messing with Wu creating order and making a system, and the age of Wandering is before everything, when there was no magical structure (that we know of) and everything was chaos (not as in the warren, but as it was primitive and raw).

There are two distinct kinds of Elder Gods. There are the special ones that seem to be related and may or may not be some kind of avatars of greater elemental powers. The rest are simply gods that were worshipped during the Elder Times.[/quote]
Like who?
[spoiler]The drunks in MT? They aren't referred to as Elder Gods and all the other ones we've met seem to be elemental forces.[/spoiler]

[quote name='Aptorian][quote name='Johnny_Phoenix' date='05 April 2010 - 05:15 AM' timestamp='1270437335' post='746818']
Also, are all gods ascendants of a lower race?
[/quote]

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I'm guessing you're referring to the Elder God conundrum I talk about above. Some old, old gods seem to have come to Wu as gods, but most gods, especially the minor ones are worshipped ascendants yes.

Not quite sure why you'd use the term "lower races" though. Creatures like Jaghut Tyrants, KCCM Matrons, Ascendant Forkrul Assail could be more than a match for the strong Elder Gods.[/quote]
I think he's referring to the paradigm of Rake=Andii, Osserc=Liosan etc. As for your last comment, entirely subjective.

[quote name='Aptorian][quote name='Johnny_Phoenix' date='05 April 2010 - 05:15 AM' timestamp='1270437335' post='746818']
Fener was always weird to me. Most of the gods are humanoid and about the same size as well, but Fener is this giant boar who's hoof alone was described as gargantuan when he was pulled into the mortal world in DG. I'm assuming this is all supposed to be completely convoluted and shrouded in mystery but I can't help thinking about it.
[/quote]

Fener has taken the shape of what he's worshipped like. The Gods can take any shape they like, his followers percieve him as a boar, so he looks like one.

His size and form is not related with his race, it is a manifestation of his strength and power. He is so strong that if he was set loose upon Wu "uncontrolled" it would be like a Mountain size boar trampling around.[/quote]
I dunno, Apt. Considering that Fener is a boar, Treach is a tiger and [spoiler]there's that bear in TTH[/spoiler], the fact that all the gods of war we've seen have been bestial has some pertinence beyond worshipers' perception.

[Garak]

Quote

the fact that all the gods of war we've seen have been bestial

In TTH someone (I think Samar Dev or maybe Traveller)

Spoiler

mention that with Fener out of the game all of the "ancient" gods of war are now waking up and fighting for the spoils. Also that they represent the different faces of war. After which Karsa opens his mouth about how war only needs one face, his.

When is that guy gonna eat some humble pie?

This post has been edited by Garak: 05 April 2010 - 12:29 PM

[MTS]

Watch the forum, buddy, this is HoC. Spoil that stuff.

This post has been edited by MTS: 05 April 2010 - 11:59 AM

[Garak]

Damn. How do you blacken the post so no one gets spoilered?

This post has been edited by Garak: 05 April 2010 - 12:10 PM

[MTS]

Edit your post using that button inbetween the reply and delete button.

Then do this:

[spoiler]text you want to spoil[/spoiler ] (without space)

[Aptorian]

you put spoiler tags around the sentence you want to hide like this [spoiler******] the text you want to hide in here [/spoiler*********] just without all the little asterisks I inserted just now so that the tags weren't converted into a spoiler blog.

If it works it should look

Spoiler

like this

Try quoting this post to see how it's set up.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 05 April 2010 - 12:16 PM

[Garak]

Ok got that fixed. Thank you for the help. Both of you

[Sinisdar Toste]

MTS, on 05 April 2010 - 11:49 AM, said:

Like who?

Spoiler

The drunks in MT? They aren't referred to as Elder Gods and all the other ones we've met seem to be elemental forces.

well they are from elder times. then there's d'rek, hood, togg and fanderay, other ancient gods who have disappeared, such as the ones

Spoiler

in maels underwater dolmens

.