[geist]

So, obviously the Malazan empire is going to have similarities with the Roman Empire. But the thing that surprised me the most is that the mythology (esp. the ascendancy) is very Roman.

Rome conquered, and assimilated foreign gods into their pantheon-- so you ended up with a huge mess of gods-- gods of hinges, gods of boxes, gods of constipation...who can keep track of who does what, when the pantheon's always changing? Which is exactly how I felt when I first read GotM (my constant thought was "There are awesome things happening here, but I have no idea wtf is really going on!"

But the ascendants are the important thing. The genius of a great man (or woman, I suppose) would live on after they died, and people would start to pray to their spirit. Eventually, they would be considered full-fledged gods. Julius Caesar was worshipped immediately upon his death. Same with Augustus. So I think you could say they ascended? Anyway, the ascendant system started to make a lot more sense to me when I thought of it being similar to the Roman system.

Other parallels:

• Legions, obviously. They have the same weaponry (shield & shortsword-- the Malaz use crossbows where Romans used javelins), same basic strategy. Both are considered finest fighting force in the world, and were the only reason the empire existed (and held together).
• Both recruited soldiers (even commanders) from lands they conquered.
• First emperor assassinated (Kellanved/Julius Caesar).
• Noble/common system in Malaz-- powerful houses of Nobles, resented by commoners. Same as Rome.
• Also, Rome had tons of cults for minor deities...like the Malaz legions had, prior to GotM.

There are probably others, too, but the ascendant one was the one I thought was the most interesting. It's like SE took Roman Empire, made some slight adjustments, and then made the mythology real.

Of course, I think the RE was remarkable devoid of Tiste Andii and floating fortresses, and their Soletaken were few and far between. Doubtful they ever came into contact with the Jaghut.

I'm obviously not saying that SE only borrowed from Rome, and not even that it's a bad thing to borrow. But I think the parallels are interesting.

[Eddie Dean]

You think Erickson "borrowed from Rome", try Butchers Codex Alerea. Its Roman influences are beyond obvious.

[Tapper]

Nice post there (@ OP)!

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with you up to a point, though.

Let's tackle the gods/mythology, first.
Yes, Rome absorbed other gods into their pantheon. But many of these were given function that had belonged to rather obscure Roman gods first. I took a class in Roman religion for half a year, and the one thing that remained in the back of my head from that, is that apparently, in very ancient Rome, a lot of verbs had their own deity associated with it. Plowing was not just a verb - it was also a god. Same, as you say, for defecation
This was before they adopted the almost Greek Jupiter/Juno pantheon. Moreover, the Romans weren't the first to accept other gods - the Demeter cult in Athens and a lot of Egyptian cults (Isis anyone?) were also very, very personal and focused on gods that didn't have that much prominence to start with.
Nor is mediterranean religion the only one to do this - Japanese religion is swamped with Chinese gods, etc, and the Persian Cyrus was already accepting Babylonic gods as his own patrons, only to be copied by Cambyses and Darius I

Not much to content with on legions and recruitment - although if I'm not mistaken, Roman legions became private outfits, especially during the period and wars of the Triumvirates. Nor was Caesar the first emperor - definately not in title, and not in spirit either, as Sulla and Marius before him, not to mention Pompey, had also walked that route to become first amongst men in Rome.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 12 February 2010 - 04:59 PM

[rhulad]

He beat me to it, so I'm just going to say that I agree with Tapper (+rep).

[geist]

I'll grant you all that-- but as for the gods, etc., I'm just trying to say that a snapshot of the Roman mythos circa Caesar Augustus is a lot like what we see in the Malazan Empire at the opening of GotM. Especially considering the whole 'ascendancy' thing. B/c when Augustus was consolidating power, there was an established pantheon of gods (yet they were always open to new gods being added), and Caesar had just ascended.

And sure, they weren't the first to accept other gods-- that was more the rule than the exception in the pre-Christian/Muslim era (the one major exception being Hebraic Monotheism). But given all the similarities between the legions of RE & ME, and the ascendant parallel, there's good reason to look at the parallel's between ME & RE religious tolerance specifically...but that in no way denies other parallels. I think that's actually one of the strengths of MBotF, in that it shapes a world out of so many disparate sources. It's like SE took every religion that has ever been believed and made them all true at once (I'm exaggerating, but just to acknowledge how layered MBotF is).

I'll grant you the Caesar point too, but I'm going to quibble a bit. Sulla, Marius, etc. were dictators, not emperors. Julius Caesar was a dictator, but it wasn't until the JC/Augustus combo that the Republic actually fell-- it had survived previous dictators. Granted, it probably would have survived JC too, but without JC, there's no Augustus, and so without Julius Caesar, there's no Roman Empire. At least, not at that time. So yeah, definitely not like a 1:1 parallel between him & Kellanved, but there definitely are parallels-- mostly that they both were (purportedly) assassinated/ascended. And given all the other Roman parallels, I don't think that's too much of a stretch.

Is it ultimately important? Nah. But I think it's interesting. Especially the Ascendent stuff, b/c I remember thinking GotM was shit-crazy with all the Ascendants and gods and mages, and no explanation as to who and what and how and why. I was damn glad the real world wasn't like MBotF because everyone's throwing nuclear magic bombs every which way-- and the ones who weren't were hurling cussers. And I thought I lived in a bad neighborhood. Fortunately, now that I've read more, I understand it perfectly.

[Aptorian]

I can't find any English online articles on the subject, but I have an old Danish dictionary on Greek Mythology. It speaks of chained gods, one especially, a female deity, kept chained by the inhabitants of a small island nation.

Certainly reminded me of the Crippled God.

[MTS]

Are you talking about Andromeda? Because she wasn't a deity, just a princess punished for her mother's crimes. The only other chained deity I can think of is Prometheus, and there's little similarity there...

[Silencer]

I think Erikson's archaeological background is well documented, and it's safe to assume he's widely read on such subjects RE: old religions and armies.

However, there is one key difference, and that is in the fact that you can ascend without being worshipped. The Emperors were deified on death and as such 'ascended to godhood', which is not the same as Erikson's 'ascension'.

It is correct to say that no-one prior to Augustus was a true 'Emperor', for prior to his time there was no Empire. Sulla, Pompey, and Julius were not Emperors, but they did hold dominion over large parts of the Republic, such as being granted the position of dictator (though the negative connotations associated with that term came much later - dictators were merely granted power for a short period of time in order to see Rome through danger or strife. The fact that Julius Caesar was going to be made dictator for life was an anomaly, but that was more a measure of his power at the time than any sinister aspect to the whole thing).
Roman religion is an interesting beast, however, that's for sure, starting out as it did with very simple spirit-figures, such as those of nature, and eventually evolving to encompass the Greek pantheon renamed, and just about every other culture's deity featured in some way (even if it was just a matter of saying, as the Greeks did, Zeus=Jupiter=Amon-Ra), and they even tolerated monotheism...even if they treated them as cults, until the time of Constantine, which was damned near the end of the whole thing.

And as far as the legions go, the tactics are very similar...the equipment to a point. Crossbows, not so much. Moranth munitions, hell no. Shield walls and sawtooth formations, sure. Leather armour...yes, but also no - the Romans had their lacquered wood lorica segmenta and such, of which I've yet to find a direct comparison for in the Malazan world. Plus SE has said in interviews that Malazan weapons are more Nordic than Roman. Note especially the lack of javelins or any form of pila, which was a key feature in the Roman infantry (also the lack of any dedicated archer units, bar what we see in RotCG, but that was militia), and while the crossbows could be considered to fill this role, they are not quite the same, either.

As an author, of course, you can't expect him to come up with completely new tactics and equipment - you have to draw off what you know or have experienced. So the simlarities are there, just altered to fit both the world and to avoid any direct comparisons. I dare say that if any Malazan ascendant came across a Roman God, the deity would be hightailing it out of there quick as a flash, and any Roman Legion would crumble before the 10,000-strong Malazan armies.

Good topic, though. ^^

[MTS]

I think the point about worship is a fair one. Although I suppose it only holds water in some cases, like the cult of Coltaine. The way he was worshiped is similar to the way Caesar, Augustus, Aurelius, Pius et al. were worshiped. This only holds true in the early to mid section of the Empire, since it's important to note that every Emperor after Severus Alexander was deified on death as a matter of standard practice, regardless of that Emperor's achievements, which is not at all the way it works on Wu. Imagine an ascended Pormqual. Oh, the horror! You must also consider that not all cases of Ascendancy require worship. I like the idea though.

Regarding the Caesar/Kellanved point, I'm pretty sure one of Kellanved's quotes is eerily similar to
'I came, I saw, I conquered.' If only Laseen had uttered 'Pormqual, give me back my legions!' and grown a beard, then it would have been perfect!

This post has been edited by MTS: 13 February 2010 - 11:24 AM

[Soulessdreamer]

 MTS, on 13 February 2010 - 09:16 AM, said:

Are you talking about Andromeda? Because she wasn't a deity, just a princess punished for her mother's crimes. The only other chained deity I can think of is Prometheus, and there's little similarity there...

Loki from the norse patheon was chained to a rock and acidic poison dripped onto his for head for all eternity.

TTFN

[Trull's son]

Forgetting magecraft and munitions, the Roman Legions may not have been as diverse as Malazan infantry, but i wouldn't say a Malazan army could easily take a Roman legion (or two).
I would definitely not say that Roman tactics (Pre-empire) are anything like those employed by the malazans. Phalanx aside, the Malazans are to the Romans's what the Green Berets are to English infantry during the 18th century. Julius Ceasar would stack his soldiers three deep (this obviously changed based on the situation, but the formation was generally like this, with the most veteran legion on the right), The Malazans seemed to employ shocktroops, hit and run, etc.
Though calvary tactics are similar, as there seems to be a distinct lack of heavy Calvalry in both cases, where light calvalry seems to be used to the same effect. Then again, does Erikson ever use calvalry to screen formations?

[Sinisdar Toste]

not in malazan armies thats for sure.

"let the nobles play at feint and blind" i believe were kellenveds words before the shattering of the untan army and its vaunted cavalry

not even among the awl and bluerose we've seen. DoD i think has one example of it.

[Fox]

 Eddie Dean, on 12 February 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

You think Erickson "borrowed from Rome", try Butchers Codex Alerea. Its Roman influences are beyond obvious.

That's because the culture in Codex Alera is descended from a displaced Roman legion. It's supposed to be obvious.