[Sinisdar Toste]

eng lng rip, on 18 March 2010 - 11:04 PM, said:

erkison is one of the worst fantasy writers working today from a strict prose perspective.

What is this i dont even...

[Abberon]

Salamander Cake, on 17 March 2010 - 08:42 PM, said:

Personally, I don't see it as a big deal that Jordan is considered "cliché". I mean, The hero/quest myth has existed for eons across all cultures. The way I see it, Erikson is doing the exact same thing on a smaller level, usually book scope. Look at the Felisin/Herboric and Baudin crossing the desert. Karsa Orlong, Mappo and Icarium are other examples. I could name others as well.

Martin is basically doing the same thing with Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran.

Robert Jordan wrote one of the most clichéd fantasy series ever written. The story of the village boy/shephard/farmer/whatever had already been done MANY times before and in the case of the WoT the cheesiness and cliché was pushed to the extreme. There was so little originality in the general plotline I can't believe I made it to the 7th book before quitting.

You had the mysterious sorceror coming to take the young farm boy away with his friends. You had the bloodline of Manetheren or whatever that gave them royal memories etc...You had a freaking SWORD IN THE STONE ffs. After the first few books the guy seems to run out of ideas and you end up with 4+ books of absolutely nothing happening. RJ milked his fans for money and didn't have a scrap of artistic integrity IMO. The fact that he died before finishing the mess is irony on the grandest scale.

jitsukerr, on 09 March 2010 - 11:26 AM, said:

Utter nonsense. TTH is a demonstration of masterful narrative writing. RotCG is a mess. Saying NoK is equivalent in quality to GotM is claptrap. GotM's structure, pacing, character realisation, dialogue, humour, and complexity, are all streets ahead of NoK.

While it's true that SE can try some things in his writing that may not work for all readers, ICE can't even conceive that trying those things is possible. Because, for him, they are not. He is clearly riding on the coattails of the affection for the series, or Bantam would never have gambled on him.

I just wanted to comment on this as well. Personally, I thought both of ICE's novels were fantastic. I would probably not have liked them if I'd never read MBotF, but NoK answered so many questions and fleshed out a lot of themes that needed it IMO. I loved the character Temper and learning about The First Sword and their battles. I liked how they fleshed out the Dancer/Kellanved encounter with Surly. Personally, I thought the actual WRITING in ICE's novels were quite good. The plots were better structured and a lot of the philosophy overkill is not present.

RotCG was also pretty good in my opinion. I really liked how it was all about the central empire on Quon Tali and focused on characters that until now had been completely neglected. The book also had a very succinct plot and brought us from start to finish in one volume with a lot happening.

You have to remember, ICE has to write within the existing framework of SE's novels, and the fact that he did it as well as he did is pretty remarkable IMO.

This post has been edited by Abberon: 23 March 2010 - 03:56 PM

[polishgenius]

Abberon, on 23 March 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

You have to remember, ICE has to write within the existing framework of SE's novels, and the fact that he did it as well as he did is pretty remarkable IMO.

He did it better than Erikson...

[globish rip]

Jordan wrote one of the most clichéd fantasy series ever written. The story of the village boy/shephard/farmer/whatever had already been done MANY times before and in the case of the WoT the cheesiness and cliché was pushed to the extreme. There was so little originality in the general plotline I can't believe I made it to the 7th book before quitting.

d-d-d-damn son p perceptive to recognize that stories about boys or "whatever" have been written b4. or that authors wld use allusion or well-established genre tropes in genre fiction~~~

[Illuyankas]

eng lng rip, on 23 March 2010 - 06:14 PM, said:

Jordan wrote one of the most clichéd fantasy series ever written. The story of the village boy/shephard/farmer/whatever had already been done MANY times before and in the case of the WoT the cheesiness and cliché was pushed to the extreme. There was so little originality in the general plotline I can't believe I made it to the 7th book before quitting.

d-d-d-damn son p perceptive to recognize that stories about boys or "whatever" have been written b4. or that authors wld use allusion or well-established genre tropes in genre fiction~~~

1. Writers should use cliches and genre tropes as a guide, not as a checklist
2. FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK STOP WRITING SO BLOODY POORLY IT DESTROYS ANY POSSIBLE POINT YOU TRY TO MAKE

[globish rip]

lol sure. pastiche and homage are principle techniques of subversion for any postmodern/genre writer. "this book is like a lot of other books in the same genre and in fact frequently references seminal texts" as criticism (i.e. w/o developing how these techniques are poorly used or unnecessary) seems like massive point-missing of the worst kind

to be quite frank did not think that dudes post deserved extended thought or even proper grammar

[Terez]

Illuyankas, on 23 March 2010 - 06:24 PM, said:

2. FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK STOP WRITING SO BLOODY POORLY IT DESTROYS ANY POSSIBLE POINT YOU TRY TO MAKE

This.

Illy said:

1. Writers should use cliches and genre tropes as a guide, not as a checklist

This, I dunno about. RJ used tropes as starting points, but they aren't the whole of what he does. A better example of the checklist might be Eddings; he was pretty honest about going by the book. IMO, RJ takes standard things and makes weaves them together in complex and original ways, even deviant ways, but I feel like I am repeating myself here. I mainly came out for the first point.

[Grief]

[fidge]

Terez do you have a link to those RJ interviews by any chance? Is there a way to get those interviews in text? Cheers

[Terez]

fidge, on 23 March 2010 - 11:22 PM, said:

Terez do you have a link to those RJ interviews by any chance? Is there a way to get those interviews in text? Cheers

Interview database. It's actually all text at the moment, with only a few things cross-referenced to video/audio sources. I hope to add more cross-referencing in the future, but for now, at least everything is named and dated and linked to the original source. I need to go back and re-source the stuff from Thus Spake the Creator to the Wayback Machine (since geocities died) but I'm not too worried about it, since I found better, more original sources for most of the stuff on Thus Spake anyway.

[Use Of Weapons]

Abberon, on 23 March 2010 - 03:39 PM, said:

You had a freaking SWORD IN THE STONE ffs.

I'm sorry, this is simply a failure to recognise when a cliché is being subverted.

[Slick Mongoose]

One of my main reasons for liking WoT is the subversion of the farmboy-fated-to-save-the-world trope. Yes, he is, but he's also fated to go insane and destroy the world.

[Yellow]

I'm sick of hearing about people who subvert clichés. Mostly what they do is just write clichés and fail at the subverting part. It'd be nice to keep away from clichés altogether.

A dogshit sandwich with a bit of tomato sauce is still a dogshit sandwich.

[Terez]

You really think it's possible to avoid cliché altogether? Seems a little naïve. In any case, no one is forcing you to read books you don't like. Some of us like RJ, some of us don't.

[amphibian]

Terez, on 25 March 2010 - 12:14 AM, said:

You really think it's possible to avoid cliché altogether? Seems a little naïve. In any case, no one is forcing you to read books you don't like. Some of us like RJ, some of us don't.

You know, for being in serious contention for Jordan's biggest fan ever, you've been remarkably civil about the critcisms leveled at Jordan. I give you props for that - and remain somewhat creeped out that you've managed to transcribe just about every interview he's ever given and cross-referenced them.

[Terez]

amphibian, on 25 March 2010 - 03:08 AM, said:

You know, for being in serious contention for Jordan's biggest fan ever, you've been remarkably civil about the critcisms leveled at Jordan. I give you props for that - and remain somewhat creeped out that you've managed to transcribe just about every interview he's ever given and cross-referenced them.

I did it because it was necessary, for proper book discussion. RJ was more willing than most authors to answer plot questions on book tour, and with all the mystery in his books, the fans are desperate for that sort of thing (though I think RJ was disappointed in the Asmodean obsession, and I don't blame him). Not only was his book knowledge encyclopedic, he also did world-building from the signing table, quite a bit. So, fans have always been familiar with these interviews, but around the time I joined the fandom, the sources had reached unwieldy proportions that were impossible for the average book-discussing fan to navigate. It drove me crazy, trying to remember which interview it was where RJ said that Fain didn't kill Asmodean, or which interview he said that Mat's ashandarei was made in the Age of Legends. So, mostly for my own benefit (since I discuss WoT more than anybody...or at least did at the time), I organized it. (I didn't transcribe most of it, actually....just organized it. I feel like I did a lot of transcription, but it was only a small chunk.)

Also, RJ's biggest fangirl is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, this girl (the one on the left - Emma aka Isabel). Ask Wert (or any other person that has ever done time at any WoT fansite since around 2000, for that matter). I like RJ of course, since he wrote WoT, but I never met him. This girl is a Dutchie, and she had a thing for flying around the world to meet him, and to meet fansite people. She was known for getting people to ask RJ if he remembered her, when they went to signings. He regularly made sport of her on his blog (in a nice way, of course). Anyway, she is my self-proclaimed nemesis on Theoryland. I will be meeting her (again) next month at JordanCon. And she graciously has consented for me to be on the Theoryland team for the trivia competition.

Also, I try to be civil most of the time. Some people make it hard, though.

This post has been edited by Terez: 25 March 2010 - 03:32 AM

[Yellow]

I wasn't even talking about RJ specifically, but as a general response to the fad of subverting clichés. It's sometimes warranted, but often it's the author's excuse for being unoriginal.

I also dislike the "homage" excuse, a la Bakker's Judging Eye last year.

As for RJ... unlike most people, I like the later books (well, the middle books). Eye of the World was very painful to read. I almost put it down when Gandalf and Lan came to the Two Rivers and took away Rand, Merry and Pippin on a grand adventure to fight the dark one.

I do enjoy reading RJ, but he's not perfect, just like every other author out there.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Slick Mongoose, on 24 March 2010 - 05:29 PM, said:

One of my main reasons for liking WoT is the subversion of the farmboy-fated-to-save-the-world trope. Yes, he is, but he's also fated to go insane and destroy the world.

But we all know that's not going to happen. At the end of the series he will be alive, sane, and the world will be saved.

[Terez]

I still have hopes that he will remain dead at the end of the series, but I am leaning more toward Nynaeve ripping him out. That's probably the most likely scenario. He's definitely going to die, though.

[Illuyankas]

Hey, I found that WOT in a Nutshell list I was looking for.

Quote

tugs braid
smoothes skirt
glances at well turned calves
complains about men gossiping or spending money like it was water
Folds arms underneath her breasts
Says "Mat Cauthon" in a disparaging tone
tells herself she really is an Aes Sedai
Sniffs
thumps him so he never forgets
boxes his ears
skins his hide
forces foul smelling/tasting tea down his/her throat
stubborn as a mule
calls him a wool-headed lummox.
thinks, "If only I Perrin or Rand were here, they always seem to know how to deal with women."
Blood and bloody ashes!
Mother's milk in a cup!
Sheep swallop and bloody buttered onions!
Flaming sheeps guts!