[D'rek]

Version 2, now taking a split from the "Baruk" version and excluding the non-draconeans. This contains spoilers concerning who is and isn't a dragon, you're forewarned!

Click to download the full-size.

Spoiler

Discussion/correction/etc welcome! Do note that the discussion will be rife with SPOILERS.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 05 February 2010 - 10:12 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

Nice. Is Envy not a Soletaken Eleint? (I can't remember).

How about listing those like Andarist and Nimander as Soletaken Eleint capable, but haven't embraced the blood.

[D'rek]

H.D., on 05 February 2010 - 10:08 PM, said:

Nice. Is Envy not a Soletaken Eleint? (I can't remember).

How about listing those like Andarist and Nimander as Soletaken Eleint capable, but haven't embraced the blood.

Well I was holding out for actual proof. While we may suspect some like Envy or K'rul to also be draconic soletaken, they've so far not shown it. Nimander's thinking about the draconic blood in him may just be that he has some of Rake's blood in him but doesn't make him necessarily a Soletaken Eleint. While Andarist never even comes close to saying he is draconic, quite the opposite. It is not that Andarist refuses the draconic blood within him, it is that he refused to ever have any, unlike his brothers (that's confirmed in DoD btw).

[Illuyankas]

Don't forget to give Osserc Serc, as well as Sorrit.

[D'rek]

Illuyankas, on 05 February 2010 - 10:11 PM, said:

Don't forget to give Osserc Serc, as well as Sorrit.

Yeah, that whole thing is weird. I bolded his trimmings like the other warren-claiming ones, but we still don't know if he claims Serc the same way as Sorrit or if it's more of a god-type relationship to that... or something else.

[Jorram]

Btw where do you get all these dragons' names from? Especially the ones that seem to be related as child and parent.
Is it from DoD?

[Hetan]

@ Jorram - Tiam is the mother of all dragons which is why those others are listed as her offspring - the dragon names we learnt were in Midnight Tides.
Dralk was a name we learnt in DoD - the guy whose armour Ublala now wears. Dralkend or something, son of Alkend.

@ D'rek - There was only one slayer of Tiam and that is Anomander so that part is misleading. It would be more correct to say Drinkers of Eleint Blood for the others. If you couple them together then you would need to include Scabandari in there and probably Tulas Shorn. It's more thank likely they drank Sorrit's blood though, rather than Tiams, but still it was Eleint Blood.

Nimander and Co also have the ability to veer in them, it's confirmed in DoD and although they don't use it they should also be included as children of Anomander Rake. Andarist drank Tiam's blood but he did not use it, but he was capable of doing so.

The otataral dragon Korabas, also should be listed amongst the offspring of Tiam, perhaps put her below the Shapers of Krul's blood?
Telorast and Curdle were true dragons too , so should also have a link directly from Tiam.

[Illuyankas]

Hang on, now that I think about it we have as much evidence that K'rul is an Elient Soletaken as Draconus - that list of Elient Soletaken who seal up SD - so why does Draconus get a listing and K'rul miss out again? I can understand Envy not being on there as we've not even had one suggestion that she's draconic at all, but I'm confused about K'rul.

[Hetan]

Silchas actually suggests that Draconus may have been a True Eleint, so with that in play, K'rul may have started out as Eleint as well. Olar Ethil is describes as different to the other Soletaken and as ' an undead twin' to Tiam and she clearly precedes the emergence of the Imass so it's not unreasonable to imagine that she may have started out as Eleint

[Jorram]

She is a kind of time-traveling Eleint according to DoD

Thanks for the explanation Hetan. I meant only the Dralk connection indeed, no the Tiam to all the rest of the dragons connection of course.
I wouldnt think Silchas suggests Draconus was a dragon.. he merely says nobody knew where he came from and what he was (clearly not an Andii, as they found out)

From the Kalyth/KCCM vision of Korabas episode I didnt get the impression she was a child to Tiam. More like, a metaphysical opposite.
It's kinda like saying FL was a son of MD which doesnt ring as particularly true.

Agreed about Telorast and Curdle

[Illuyankas]

Isn't it Kagamandra, not Kagamandras? Also would you consider a 'was a dragon, isn't any more' place for Andarist?

[D'rek]

Hetan, on 22 March 2010 - 07:22 AM, said:

@ D'rek - There was only one slayer of Tiam and that is Anomander so that part is misleading. It would be more correct to say Drinkers of Eleint Blood for the others. If you couple them together then you would need to include Scabandari in there and probably Tulas Shorn. It's more thank likely they drank Sorrit's blood though, rather than Tiams, but still it was Eleint Blood.

There is a quote from MT or RG from Sheltatha/Menandore/Sukul (can't remember which) that says "Silchas Ruin, who drank in Rake's wake, drank deeper than his brother" or something like that. To me that definitely implies he drank from Tiam herself. Then we see them together in TtH and Rake is drac-eleint but Silchas is not yet, so Silchas would not have done so from the same slaying as Rake, the way Korlat, Orfantal and the other 2 TA did.

Since Tiam comes back to life when she dies, this is perfectly fine and therefore the other slayers can have drank Tiam's blood directly too. Not sure where you get the idea of drinking Sorrit's blood - where is there any mention of becoming Soletaken-eleint from drinking the blood of any dragon other than Tiam?

Scabby is almost definitely a lover of Tiam and not a killer because he had a daughter with Tiam - Sheltatha.

Hetan, on 22 March 2010 - 07:22 AM, said:

Nimander and Co also have the ability to veer in them, it's confirmed in DoD and although they don't use it they should also be included as children of Anomander Rake. Andarist drank Tiam's blood but he did not use it, but he was capable of doing so.

The otataral dragon Korabas, also should be listed amongst the offspring of Tiam, perhaps put her below the Shapers of Krul's blood?
Telorast and Curdle were true dragons too , so should also have a link directly from Tiam.

I have no recollection of any such parts confirming Nimander and co, nor Andarist - where was this?

Like Jorram, I didn't get that Korabas was a child of Tiam, but I suppose she could be. Especially if it turns out Korabas is the eleint that didn't accept K'rul's bargain, since the others are children of Tiam it'd make sense.

Telorast and Curdle are dragons, pure-blood and close to Tiam, but there's no reason to assume they are children of Tiam, and not grandchildren or great-grandchildren. They could easily be like Dralk.

Illuyankas, on 22 March 2010 - 10:48 AM, said:

Hang on, now that I think about it we have as much evidence that K'rul is an Elient Soletaken as Draconus - that list of Elient Soletaken who seal up SD - so why does Draconus get a listing and K'rul miss out again? I can understand Envy not being on there as we've not even had one suggestion that she's draconic at all, but I'm confused about K'rul.

The only reference of K'rul in relation to dragons is from Rud Elalle's list, there's been no other indication. It may be that he's a soletaken eleint, but it may also be that Rud Elalle was listing him for some other reason related to his importance with dragons. I'm more or less holding out for more proof.

[Hetan]

Forgive the convoluted nature of this reply - it's difficult to get all the quotes in context

[quote name='D'rek' date='22 March 2010 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1269276214' post='742059']
[quote name='Hetan' date='22 March 2010 - 03:22 AM' timestamp='1269242572' post='741925']
@ D'rek - There was only one slayer of Tiam and that is Anomander so that part is misleading. It would be more correct to say Drinkers of Eleint Blood for the others. If you couple them together then you would need to include Scabandari in there and probably Tulas Shorn. It's more than likely they drank Sorrit's blood though, rather than Tiams, but still it was Eleint Blood.
[/quote]

[quote name='D'rek']There is a quote from MT or RG from Sheltatha/Menandore/Sukul (can't remember which) that says "Silchas Ruin, who drank in Rake's wake, drank deeper than his brother" or something like that. To me that definitely implies he drank from Tiam herself. Then we see them together in TtH and Rake is drac-eleint but Silchas is not yet, so Silchas would not have done so from the same slaying as Rake, the way Korlat, Orfantal and the other 2 TA did. [/quote]

Drinking in his brother's wake means exactly that - he came behind Anomander - in his wake. Furthermore, he could not have killed her later because Anomander KILLED Tiam - she did not come back from that - Tiam did not recover.


[quote name='D'rek']Since Tiam comes back to life when she dies, this is perfectly fine and therefore the other slayers can have drank Tiam's blood directly too. Not sure where you get the idea of drinking Sorrit's blood - where is there any mention of becoming Soletaken-eleint from drinking the blood of any dragon other than Tiam?[/quote]

The blood of a dragon is the well-fount of it it's power - it can create soletaken, it can drip through worlds, it can power a gate or a sky keep. Why would you think that only Tiam's blood is capable of creating soletaken? Where is the mention of Scabandari drinking from Tiam's blood? - see your quote below - if he didn't drink from her blood he had to get the eleint blood elsewhere.

[quote name='D'rek']Scabby is almost definitely a lover of Tiam and not a killer because he had a daughter with Tiam - Sheltatha.[/quote]


[quote name='Hetan' date='22 March 2010 - 03:22 AM' timestamp='1269242572' post='741925']
Nimander and Co also have the ability to veer in them, it's confirmed in DoD and although they don't use it they should also be included as children of Anomander Rake. Andarist drank Tiam's blood but he did not use it, but he was capable of doing so.

The otataral dragon Korabas, also should be listed amongst the offspring of Tiam, perhaps put her below the Shapers of Krul's blood?
Telorast and Curdle were true dragons too , so should also have a link directly from Tiam.
[/quote]

[quote name='D'rek']I have no recollection of any such parts confirming Nimander and co, nor Andarist - where was this? [/quote]

My bad – it was Toll the Hounds – Here’s a couple of quotes :

Nimander Golit, the blood of our Lord is within you. The blood of Eleint, too – is that the secret? Is that the one weapon Clip did not know you possess? How could he know? How could anyone? We have suppressed it within ourselves for so long now –
"Because Andarist told us to!"
Because Andarist told us to. Because he was bitter. And hurting, he was hurting bad. He thought he could take his brother's children and make them his own, more his own than Rake's.
"Nenanda –"
Had the thinnest blood of all. (TtH)

"You could always awaken T'iam's blood within you, and find out, Nimander."(TtH)

I agree about Andarist – it is explicitly stated that he had no Draconean blood in him in HoC.

[quote name='D'rek']Like Jorram, I didn't get that Korabas was a child of Tiam, but I suppose she could be. Especially if it turns out Korabas is the eleint that didn't accept K'rul's bargain, since the others are children of Tiam it'd make sense.

Telorast and Curdle are dragons, pure-blood and close to Tiam, but there's no reason to assume they are children of Tiam, and not grandchildren or great-grandchildren. They could easily be like Dralk.[/quote]

They are all children of Tiam, in that she was the mother of all dragons. This is quite clearly stated in Midnight Tides. It is her blood that is important – she doesn’t have to literally have borne them all. Indeed, by your argument, where is it stated that those listed are the offspring of Tiam? The thing is that Tiam is the first Eleint and all others who came after her carry her blood to some extent or another and are thereby linked.

And by the way - it is also confirmed that Osseric also drank of Tiam's blood in TtH.

[D'rek]

[quote name='Hetan' date='22 March 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1269289509' post='742150']
Forgive the convoluted nature of this reply - it's difficult to get all the quotes in context

[quote name='D'rek' date='22 March 2010 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1269276214' post='742059']
[quote name='Hetan' date='22 March 2010 - 03:22 AM' timestamp='1269242572' post='741925']
@ D'rek - There was only one slayer of Tiam and that is Anomander so that part is misleading. It would be more correct to say Drinkers of Eleint Blood for the others. If you couple them together then you would need to include Scabandari in there and probably Tulas Shorn. It's more than likely they drank Sorrit's blood though, rather than Tiams, but still it was Eleint Blood.
[/quote]

[quote name='D'rek']There is a quote from MT or RG from Sheltatha/Menandore/Sukul (can't remember which) that says "Silchas Ruin, who drank in Rake's wake, drank deeper than his brother" or something like that. To me that definitely implies he drank from Tiam herself. Then we see them together in TtH and Rake is drac-eleint but Silchas is not yet, so Silchas would not have done so from the same slaying as Rake, the way Korlat, Orfantal and the other 2 TA did. [/quote]

Drinking in his brother's wake means exactly that - he came behind Anomander - in his wake. Furthermore, he could not have drunk from her later because Anomander KILLED Tiam - she did not come back from that - Tiam did not recover.
[/quote]

Well we probably won't come to any sort of agreement on this, but I maintain that the scene with Rake being scaly shortly after he slew Tiam and Silchas Ruin being there and not scaly indicates that Silchas did not feed upon Tiam at the same time as Rake. MD seemed pretty outraged at Rake at the time, but she makes no mention of Ruin? I know a lot of forum-member believe Rake slew Tiam and that she never came back, back I still hold that he was the first to slay her and many more would follow as she was reborn again and again.

Considering Rake slew Tiam during the Andii civil wars, that wouldn't give Scabby much time to go have a daughter with Tiam, either...


Re getting Soletaken from other dragons: I suppose there's no reason it couldn't happen, it just seems weird that there's been no mention of the possibility insofar as I can recall.

Re Nimander: Ah, that quote is more direct with it than I recall (my copy of TtH has been lent out to a friend for ages now), I was figuring Nimander as more of an Envy-type with a cryptic reference to draconean inheritance. I'll add him and the clan in (dotted-line since they're apparently suppressing the ability) for the next update.


[quote name='Hetan' date='22 March 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1269289509' post='742150']
They are all children of Tiam, in that she was the mother of all dragons. This is quite clearly stated in Midnight Tides. It is her blood that is important – she doesn’t have to literally have borne them all. Indeed, by your argument, where is it stated that those listed are the offspring of Tiam? The thing is that Tiam is the first Eleint and all others who came after her carry her blood to some extent or another and are thereby linked.

And by the way - it is also confirmed that Osseric also drank of Tiam's blood in TtH.
[/quote]

The ones listed are called the Pure Dragons. Now you could take that any which way, but then a lot of the ones listed by Rud are Shapers of the Blood or referenced as 'true blood of Tiam'. They may not be exact sons or daughters of Tiam, but they're pretty damn close. Telorast and Curdle, meanwhile, have never been referred to as 'Pure', so a distinguishment may be necessary. They're still in that group, but may not be Shapers of the Blood or as early generation, so a bit of distinguishment felt useful.

Re Osseric: goddamn, he has 2 daughters with her and Sukul directly calls him out on "weaving his blood with hers" and proclaiming her a sister or some such. How very silly.

[Jorram]

I'd forgotten about the proclaiming as sister thing.
All these nonsense relations
It's just too crazy ><

Btw, D'rek, I think that you are confusing the chronology a bit. The scene with Anomander looking half-draconic and the argument with MD; and the scene with Rake talking to Silchas and Andarist in the forest are both memories of Endest Silann. Though they occur in this order in the book, they don't necessarily occur in this order in the real timeline. He just remembers them when it's due.

Moreover, in the MD scene Rake says "The war is over. Silchas is fleeing" so it's safe to assume that this actually happens AFTER the three brothers meet in the forest and now each one is taking on his role.

Note that I don't disagree with you on the Tiam issue. Actually I think we don't have enough information to judge. But your Scabandari argument is quite strong. Also, when MD says "Silchas is fleeing, yes, and where do you think he is going?" I took that to mean that Silchas is now going to kill/drink blood from Tiam himself. Other possibility is he is going to the Edur/Liosan but it seems a bit early for that because the Silchas-Edur alliance occurs much later (Rake has already left Kharkanas, for one thing, and there's also the time where Silchas and Rake are killing dragons in Emurlahn or Forkrul Assail on Wu.. not sure when all of this happens).

[Hetan]

Regarding Telorast and Curdle - who are indeed Pure blood -

Quote

Silchas to Olar Ethil - "Two undead dragons are seeking you. I know them of old. They will bow and scrape and swear fealty. But in their hearts they are vile.
Olar Ethil sniffed. "I thought I sensed … something. On our trail. You say you know them, while I do not. I find that odd, given the world you and I once shared."
"From when the Eleint were unleashed, out through the Gate, seeking to claim realms to rule amidst the shattered remains of Kurald Emurlahn." He paused, and then added, "My own encounter with them was brief, but violent. They are true spawn of T'iam." "Yet they travel together. Why has neither one committed treachery upon the other?"
"I believe they are twins, Olar Ethil, hatched from a single egg as it were. Among all the Eleint during the Wars of Shadow, they came closest to victory. (DoD)

During that scene quoted by Jorram above, Rake is scaly, Silchas does not appear and Rake says he is fleeing, Mother Dark asks where does he think Silchas has gone - that is when he heads off to drink Tiam's blood, which is before he leaves to join the Edur. We know this from the perspective of the Shake who were gifted the road by Blind Gallan -

Quote

"There was civil war. Who could have commanded him to do anything?"
"One possessing the Blood of T'iam, and a prince of Kharkanas."

[D'rek]

Okay, but if Rake is scaly and back in Kharkanas talking to MD and says that Silchas has left, and we take that as he is going to drink the blood of Tiam, are we sayng that he is going to go find the corpse of Tiam from Rake's slaying and flog whatever blood is left in it to drink...?

[Hetan]

Of course we are - she's a dragon and there will be lots of blood. We have seen urns of blood in the series.
The fact is that once Rake killed Tiam she did not resurrect.

[D'rek]

Hetan, on 23 March 2010 - 05:21 PM, said:

The fact is that once Rake killed Tiam she did not resurrect.

How is that a fact?

[Hetan]

Do you think that Mother Dark would have renounced the entire Andi race if Tiam's death at Anomander's hand had meant nothing?
That his killing of Tiam would have simply meant she would resurrect as before and everything would be back to normal? If so MD would not be so pissed at him.
Tiam died and resurrected through childbirth before - but his killing of Tiam was different - more - final if you like.