[kingnothing]

I had this thought from out of the blue today and thought I might see if anyone else has mused on it as well.

It's in regard to the crippled god and how is whole deformed, hurtful and marred view of existence and what he does to both his unwitting servants and acolytes. His main goal, well at least in the first 5 books is to bring about pain and suffering, what he has been put through, and unleash it upon the world, and only the ones who follow shall be granted access to his power and so forth with the warrens and all. It's as if they shall inherit the earth, or Wu.

What I'm trying to get at is that the crippled god is similar to the aspect of the christian god in that suffering and pain and just generally being sorry and disgusted at yourself brings reward and salvation. I'm not that religious nor do I chastise or belittle people who have a strong faith. We all have a faith in something in the end but it seems like an interesting correlation between the two. maybe SE is trying to show the dangers of too much dependence on faith or blind faith, literal and metaphorically speaking

way out there theory - maybe it is the christian god that was brought down hahahahahaha

any thoughts on that?

[Aptorian]

There's been discussion about it before.

http://forum.malazan...=1

http://forum.malazan...=1

http://forum.malazan...h=1

How ever I think the interesting point to remember is that the Crippled God needs his followers but he does not want them.

There is also a passage where he reveals that he was once a very different quite a god, which couple with the statues we saw in MT, suggests that he may have been a god of love/life/passion.

[Ozymandiac]

Interesting point. Could you tell me where the part about the statues is? I seem to have forgotten that entirely.

[Aptorian]

I can't remember if it's Kettle or Brys who's the PoV in the scene, but it's the part in MT where one of them comes to the dying Azath and Ruin shows them the scene where The Crippled God falls to Koreli. Along with the CG, chunks of a temple are falling to earth, among the pieces are artwork of a giant demon holding its cock. This leads to the assumption that the CGs original aspect was something to do with penises.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 02 February 2010 - 01:54 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

I think you have a very twisted and wrong version of what the Christian God actually is, and what his statutes actually are. So I completely disagree with you.

[Slow Ben]

Yeah, I dont know where you get your info, but that sounds nothing like my religion.

[bubba]

This will end up being a theological discussion so I'm going to move this over to the DB and add a tag "assorted spoilers".

[Terez]

LOL, way to kill it! But I would have thought he had more similarities with Satan than God.

[Epiph]

Maybe Satan IS God, just pulled through a gigantic rift in space time and crippled! OOOOOO

[MTS]

Epiph, on 02 February 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:

Maybe Satan IS God, just pulled through a gigantic rift in space time and crippled! OOOOOO

Mind. Blown.

[Terez]

Someone argued on Theoryland recently that the Dark One = the Creator. It's actually pretty believable.

[Aptorian]

You mean the dark one is just one side of the creator? Like yin and yang?

It's an interesting idea. I'd like to believe it was true, but it would also be annoying.

The thing I don't like about WOTs big bad guy, Goodkinds "Keeper", various movies about the Devil working unopposed by God on earth, etc. Is that it's stupid that there doesn't appear to be any balance (Goodkinds series is especially bad in this regard).

Basically these stories hinge upon the fact that there's a big evil force that could gobble up the earth and kill our heroes at any point, but the supposedly Good God who is the opposite of the bad guy is no where to be seen and never figures into the story. I can accept that two gods are playing a game letting their minions play tricks on earth, but I don't like the notion of one god just letting his opponent win with out lifting a finger.

[Epiph]

Well, the logical explanation there would be that the Dark One/Devil/Big Evil Force is not a God, just a very powerful individual, and there is not actually a Creator/God/Big Good Force, thus has no one to counter him/her/it

[Elephant Tamer]

Terez, on 02 February 2010 - 08:11 PM, said:

Someone argued on Theoryland recently that the Dark One = the Creator. It's actually pretty believable.

Sound like the demiurge found in most gnostic beliefs. Interesting.

As for the crippled god being a reflection of the "christian god", no. I find no resemblance whatsoever. Perhaps the redeemer would be a closer idea, at least superficially.

[Aptorian]

In the Satan stories the excuse is always that God works in mysterious ways, he wants mankind to fend for themselves that's why they have free will, there is invisible angels, blah blah, which is fine. Basically God is waiting for Satan to begin Armageddon so that his warrior angels can arrive after a thousand years of misery and pummel the shit out of the devil.

But it annoys me, when I'm reading a fantasy book, that the author has to make the situation so one sided. Goodkind is of course the worst at this. The complete imbalance in his magic system pisses me off. For some reason the negative magic type kills the positive magic type. The only people who have the negative magic type are the people working for the Keeper. The keeper is constantly using agents and sending bad creatures and stuff into the world. Yet, the good god like being, the creator or what ever, is no where to be seen, there is no positive fantasy creatures that counter the bad ones, it's basically just Dicky Rahl versus the World the whole story through. Fuck that.

I need balance in my story. Otherwise it doesn't make sense at all.

[Elephant Tamer]

Aptorian, on 02 February 2010 - 09:35 PM, said:

In the Satan stories the excuse is always that God works in mysterious ways, he wants mankind to fend for themselves that's why they have free will, there is invisible angels, blah blah, which is fine. Basically God is waiting for Satan to begin Armageddon so that his warrior angels can arrive after a thousand years of misery and pummel the shit out of the devil.

But it annoys me, when I'm reading a fantasy book, that the author has to make the situation so one sided. Goodkind is of course the worst at this. The complete imbalance in his magic system pisses me off. For some reason the negative magic type kills the positive magic type. The only people who have the negative magic type are the people working for the Keeper. The keeper is constantly using agents and sending bad creatures and stuff into the world. Yet, the good god like being, the creator or what ever, is no where to be seen, there is no positive fantasy creatures that counter the bad ones, it's basically just Dicky Rahl versus the World the whole story through. Fuck that.

I need balance in my story. Otherwise it doesn't make sense at all.

Well, if Richard wasn't against such overwhelming odds, and the world wasn't fighting him foot and mouth, what excuse would he have to be such a Dick?

[Obdigore]

Elephant Tamer, on 02 February 2010 - 09:41 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 02 February 2010 - 09:35 PM, said:

In the Satan stories the excuse is always that God works in mysterious ways, he wants mankind to fend for themselves that's why they have free will, there is invisible angels, blah blah, which is fine. Basically God is waiting for Satan to begin Armageddon so that his warrior angels can arrive after a thousand years of misery and pummel the shit out of the devil.

But it annoys me, when I'm reading a fantasy book, that the author has to make the situation so one sided. Goodkind is of course the worst at this. The complete imbalance in his magic system pisses me off. For some reason the negative magic type kills the positive magic type. The only people who have the negative magic type are the people working for the Keeper. The keeper is constantly using agents and sending bad creatures and stuff into the world. Yet, the good god like being, the creator or what ever, is no where to be seen, there is no positive fantasy creatures that counter the bad ones, it's basically just Dicky Rahl versus the World the whole story through. Fuck that.

I need balance in my story. Otherwise it doesn't make sense at all.

Well, if Richard wasn't against such overwhelming odds, and the world wasn't fighting him foot and mouth, what excuse would he have to be such a Dick?

He is right.

Therefore kicking kids in the face and killing them is fine. Because he is on the side of right.

Also, it is his name. If you go up to Richard Rahl and say 'You are such a Dick!, shouldn't he say 'Yes, that is my name. Who is Kahlan, and where is the rape?'

Ahem...

Similarities? Destroying entire peoples because you don't like them... not listening to followers (debatable)... both have CG as their initials... I mean, maybe if the Christian God was ripped out of our universe and destroyed and what not... but at that point, is he really the current christian god?

Or is the whole series of the books actually about what terrible things organized religion (the other gods) have done in the name of their divine entity (the CG's power they are draining.)?

If so, bravo for the longest and best hidden yet still obvious assault upon organized religion I have seen yet.

If not, do we really have to have this discussion again?

edit to be clear, because if I don't make it I am going to get blasted:
I don't have a problem with people being religious. I do have a problem with the track record of nearly every single organized religion I have come across. Flame away!

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 02 February 2010 - 09:52 PM

[Terez]

Aptorian, on 02 February 2010 - 08:24 PM, said:

You mean the dark one is just one side of the creator? Like yin and yang?

No. More like, the Creator created the world, and then got trapped by it, and the Wheel, being the non-sentient super-computer, automatically tossed out correctives to keep him from escaping.

The Dark One calls the 'Dragon' his 'ancient enemy', but never mentions the Creator. Ishamael believes that the Creator made the world and left it to fend for itself, going on to create other worlds, and not caring if any of them fell by the wayside. The rest of the world believes that the Creator simply doesn't interfere. But what if he can't interfere? Some people believe that the voice that spoke to Rand at the Eye of the world was the Creator, and some believe it was the Dark One. What if it's both?

[Obdigore]

Terez, on 02 February 2010 - 10:26 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 02 February 2010 - 08:24 PM, said:

You mean the dark one is just one side of the creator? Like yin and yang?

No. More like, the Creator created the world, and then got trapped by it, and the Wheel, being the non-sentient super-computer, automatically tossed out correctives to keep him from escaping.

The Dark One calls the 'Dragon' his 'ancient enemy', but never mentions the Creator. Ishamael believes that the Creator made the world and left it to fend for itself, going on to create other worlds, and not caring if any of them fell by the wayside. The rest of the world believes that the Creator simply doesn't interfere. But what if he can't interfere? Some people believe that the voice that spoke to Rand at the Eye of the world was the Creator, and some believe it was the Dark One. What if it's both?

what if it is neither and was Lews Therimon in one of his semi-lucid moments?

[Illuyankas]

What if it's an EOTWism?