[Tyrant]

So is he dead then? Or is he 'exploring the cosmos' for Mother Dark, or whatever rather desultory explanation it was that was offered when he 'melted' inside Dragnipur? I thought Mother Dark was trapped inside the sword/wagon? But then she was possessing Nimander's girl, who's name escapes me at the moment, so how could she be trapped? And if she was trapped, why did she 'turn away' from the Andii? Something to do with the priestess's shagging corpses at Kharkanas or something? The whole Kharkanas bit completely threw me, not least because I wanted to top myself whenever Endest Silann had a POV.

Where is MD and is there any potential for Rake's return? There was no emphatic suggestion that he was truly dead and gone for ever, particuarly if Draconus can be 'killed' by Dragnipur and subsequently return upon it's destruction as was hinted at by Lady Envy....

This post has been edited by Tyrant: 11 January 2010 - 07:24 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Well Lady Envy didn't hint at anything for starters, she stated right out that he was back.

Mother Dark wasn't trapped, she turned away from the Andii, because she was upset at how they were acting with their Civil Wars. Also Rake got pissed at her when she helped to create the Edur. She couldn't come back because the gate of darkness was under siege by chaos. Rake's soul is spanning the the Gate of Darkness to seal it (like what happened with the Jaghut child at Morn in MoI and in DG with Legana Breed the T'lan Imass on the ship), personally I'll be pissed if we see him again in this main series because it was such an epic ending.

There are a lot of threads explaining this in more detail by smarter people than me (I'd look for abyss's) so look around.

[Tyrant]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 11 January 2010 - 07:39 PM, said:

Well Lady Envy didn't hint at anything for starters, she stated right out that he was back.

Mother Dark wasn't trapped, she turned away from the Andii, because she was upset at how they were acting with their Civil Wars. Also Rake got pissed at her when she helped to create the Edur. She couldn't come back because the gate of darkness was under siege by chaos. Rake's soul is spanning the the Gate of Darkness to seal it (like what happened with the Jaghut child at Morn in MoI and in DG with Legana Breed the T'lan Imass on the ship), personally I'll be pissed if we see him again in this main series because it was such an epic ending.

There are a lot of threads explaining this in more detail by smarter people than me (I'd look for abyss's) so look around.

Yeah I know what she said, semantics I suppose...

MD was trapped, Draconus said it himself. Though whether that was simply because the Gate to KG being hidden within Dragnipur meant she could not return, or whether she was imprisoned in there by Draconus I'm not clear on...moot point really, as even if she couldn't come back as you say, she was still confined to wherever it was she'd gone and unable to return, ergo she was trapped, but again, semantics...

In regards to Rake's current role...I'm not sure that's the case, unless I've missed something? Why would Rake need to span the gate? By convention in the lore it has only been necessary for a soul to span the rents, and so seal the tears in the fabric of the warrens which so threaten the universe, not the gates themselves, particuarly one as ancient and primordial as the Gate into Darkness?

Also, this still doesn't explain the nature of Aranatha's possession by Mother Dark?

This post has been edited by Tyrant: 11 January 2010 - 09:25 PM

[alt146]

Tyrant, on 11 January 2010 - 08:31 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 11 January 2010 - 07:39 PM, said:

Well Lady Envy didn't hint at anything for starters, she stated right out that he was back.

Mother Dark wasn't trapped, she turned away from the Andii, because she was upset at how they were acting with their Civil Wars. Also Rake got pissed at her when she helped to create the Edur. She couldn't come back because the gate of darkness was under siege by chaos. Rake's soul is spanning the the Gate of Darkness to seal it (like what happened with the Jaghut child at Morn in MoI and in DG with Legana Breed the T'lan Imass on the ship), personally I'll be pissed if we see him again in this main series because it was such an epic ending.

There are a lot of threads explaining this in more detail by smarter people than me (I'd look for abyss's) so look around.

Yeah I know what she said, semantics I suppose...

MD was trapped, Draconus said it himself. Though whether that was simply because the Gate to KG being hidden within Dragnipur meant she could not return, or whether she was imprisoned in there by Draconus I'm not clear on...moot point really, as even if she couldn't come back as you say, she was still confined to wherever it was she'd gone and unable to return, ergo she was trapped, but again, semantics...

In regards to Rake's current role...I'm not sure that's the case, unless I've missed something? Why would Rake need to span the gate? By convention in the lore it has only been necessary for a soul to span the rents, and so seal the tears in the fabric of the warrens which so threaten the universe, not the gates themselves, particuarly one as ancient and primordial as the Gate into Darkness?

He didnt seal a rift so much as anchor the gate in place was the impression I got. The bridging was more a metaphorical one between Mother Dark and the children she had turned away from. There is still a chance Rake may have some influence in the future, you get the impression he still exists as Rake when he talks to MD and there's no knowing what effect him receiving the eye of the god on the wagon will have. Chances are though it will be more of an Iskar Jarak reappearance than anything else, a lot of fans will be upset if he just reappears somewhere. Besides there's a trilogy in the works that's supposed to deal with a lot of the tiste history, I'm sure we'll see tons more of Rake then

[Hetan]

Here's a whole lot of bits that may help it make sense :-

Quote

'‘Darkness has ever warred against Chaos, mortal. Ever retreated. And each time that Mother Dark relented – to the Coming of Light, to the Birth of Shadow – her power has diminished, the imbalance growing more profound. Such was the state of the realms around me in those early times. A growing imbalance. Until Chaos approached the very Gate to Kurald Galain itself. A defence needed to be fashioned. Souls were . . . required...Chaos hungers for the power in those souls – for what Dragnipur has claimed. To feed on such power will make it stronger – tenfold. A hundredfold. Sufficient to breach the Gate.

“The wagon carries the gate, the gate into Kurald Galain, the warren of Darkness. The sword gathers souls to seal it . . . such a wound it must be, to demand so many souls . . .”

So Dragnipur was forged to keep the gate away from Chaos, but the very fact that it needed souls to pull it actually drew Chaos towards it.

Mother Dark turned her back on the Andii due to all the civil wars between the Tiste Races and I think Anomander slaying Tiam and drinking her blood was the final nail in the coffin, so to speak. I don’t remember any corpse shagging but I could have overlooked it

The Gate is now tied to Black Coral rather than being on a wagon and requiring souls to pull it - Rake sacrificed himself because his is a presence that she would not be able to ignore inside Khurald Galain, a pathway of sorts. I don't think he is sealing anything - I really do think he is gone for good.

Dragnipur needed to be shattered to free the souls that were tied to it and the war inside the sword ensured that a lot of bad souls were killed off prior to that shattering.

Mother Dark could not manifest herself very strongly and used Aranatha as a conduit.
"Aranatha was not Aranatha for some time – perhaps you don't remember when she was younger. Nimander, our sister was a simpleton. Barely a child in her mind, no matter that she grew into a woman."

I reckon Draconus is going to get an ear-bashing when he gets home for tea...

[QuinlanSilvanos]

Hetan, on 12 January 2010 - 12:39 AM, said:

The Gate is now tied to Black Coral rather than being on a wagon and requiring souls to pull it.

Why would a gate need to be tied in the first place? I don't remember any other gates being tied, for sure not to the planet of the Malazan Book Of The Fallen. I thought gates were the beginnings and the ends of their warrens, so they are not in planets, they are in worlds of their own.

[Sinisdar Toste]

many gates are fixed. most of them however, are inside azath houses. the gate of darkness is a special case as it is pretty much inseperable, conceptually, from MD herself. the only other gates we know of to KG require blood sacrifice of andii, or are down anomander rakes throat

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 09 February 2010 - 09:01 PM

[Roldom]

arnt u making the same mistake draconus made? the gate of darkness needs to wander, thats its defense from chaos, it wasnt retreating, it was wandering. the reason it was in such trouble inside dragnipr was because it was trapped, im sure theres a conv between paran and draconus in MoI that explains that the gate needs to be able to move....

[Sinisdar Toste]

how am i making that mistake? i didn't mention anything about the gates disposition, just it's nature. but with the gate now at black coral, which has become like a jaghut glacier, a more or less permanent manifestation of KG on the earth, i think it's protected from chaos. not to mention MD is also living there now, in a physical form.