[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Just noticed this the other day and I think it must mean that Envy is an Elder God(dess), not that I find that particularly controversial for a reason that constitutes a spoiler in this forum, but I don't think it's been mentioned before. Here's the passage I'm talking about, after Envy returns from Rake's internment and is sitting down for a drink with Fisher at her estate:

Quote

She would not speak of her time at the barrow. She would, in fact, never speak of it. Not to this man, not to anyone. "Caladan Brood," she replied, "that's what happened. And there's more."
"What?"
She faced him, and then drained her goblet. "My father. He's back."

* * *

Oh, frail city…
An empty plain it was, beneath an empty sky, yes. Weak, flickering fire nested deep in its ring of charred stones, now little more than ebbing coals. A night, a hearth, and a tale now spun, spun out.
'Has thou ever seen Kruppe dance?'
'No. I think not. Not by limb, not by word.'
'Then, my friends, settle yourselves this night. And witness…'
And so they did. Bard and Elder God, and oh how Kruppe danced.

This post has been edited by Bre'nigan: 07 January 2010 - 08:16 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

That Elder God is K'rul. It's the scene from the very beginning of the book finished at the end.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Ack! Never mind, nothing to see here...

[Aptorian]

But even though we haven't got any obvious quatations, Envy, along with Spite, is more than likely worshipped somewhere and has been since the Elder Times.

If you were worshipped some hundred thousands years ago or more, you qualify as an Elder God.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

What makes you say they have been worshipped? They aren't like Menandore, Sukul Ankhadu, and Sheltatha Lore getting worshipped by the Edur. So do you think it is just the fact that they are Eleint Soletaken? Or were you thinking more along the lines of the people that worshipped Icarium without his knowledge?

[Abyss]

She's the daughter of Draconus - an Elder God - , and Sheltana Lore, a Draconic Soletaken whose parents were Scarabandari Bloodeye, possibly an Elder God or the son of one, and Tiam, 'Mother of Dragons' and Elder God. Put another way, she's one generation removed from Mommy D - creator of the universe - via both her parents.

So technically her bloodline and time of birth are enough to put her in the running. The question of whether she's an actual elder god in the sense that Drac or Mael are, or just an incredibly powerful and old Ascendent hinges on whether she was worshipped. Her dialogue in MoI hints that she at the least has been worshipped in the past, iirc.

She has no aspect that we're aware of, which suggests more ascendent, less god, but then again, she may have had one at some point. Unless 'Envy' amounts to an aspect, i suppose.

- Abyss, bets she has a hell of a skin care regime.

[Aptorian]

They've got the blood of Draconus and some other, probably powerful, creature in their veins, they are strong mages and draconean to boot. Any ascendant with that amount of power is going to create waves. They will have popped up in Tiles and Deck readings. Their presence will have been observed in cataclysmic events, they will have been seen as divine creatures or terrible demons. Even if they were dispised they may have gained religious devotion as creatures of destruction, like Killy does.

I think it's impossible that the two wont have gained some religious attention at some point.

[HoosierDaddy]

Envy was to be used in the most recent Chaining, says K'rul. I don't think an Elder God gets nominated for that role.

[Aptorian]

H.D., on 07 January 2010 - 10:12 PM, said:

Envy was to be used in the most recent Chaining, says K'rul. I don't think an Elder God gets nominated for that role.

Why not? Envy would have been infinitely more suited for the task. She could have handled way more power than the vessel of a mere human mortal. Remember that the only thing that seems to limit a mages "power level" is how much power their body can channel without bursting.

[HoosierDaddy]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but we don't know what happens to the person used to help in the Chaining, other than Dassem's daughter died from it. Am I forgetting something?

[Aptorian]

H.D., on 07 January 2010 - 10:55 PM, said:

Maybe I'm mistaken, but we don't know what happens to the person used to help in the Chaining, other than Dassem's daughter died from it. Am I forgetting something?

You're assuming that Dassem's daughter was used as a sacrifice?

See, I don't think that was the case. If a sacrifice was needed, Gods like Hood would have had a whole herd of worshippers to use (of course maybe that is exactly what he did, but) and more powerful sacrifices could have been done than the likes of one mortal human... who was probably a mage.

I think Dassem's daughter served as a conduit. Some kind of focal point of a ritual where she was channelling the power of the people attending. Probably she was fulfilling some role demanding a mortals presence.

[HoosierDaddy]

If it demands a mortal's presence doesn't that automatically disqualify Envy as an Elder God?

Edit: Also, I don't know what the role is, the best we can do is speculate. Yours is a good interpretation, but why volunteer for something that could end up killing you was my notion for Envy not wanting to do it.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 07 January 2010 - 11:04 PM

[Aptorian]

I thought she was just preoccupied...

[Sinisdar Toste]

side note: as of MT we know that envy and spite were begat of sheltatha lore and draconus.

[D'rek]

H.D., on 07 January 2010 - 11:03 PM, said:

If it demands a mortal's presence doesn't that automatically disqualify Envy as an Elder God?

Edit: Also, I don't know what the role is, the best we can do is speculate. Yours is a good interpretation, but why volunteer for something that could end up killing you was my notion for Envy not wanting to do it.

Envy does definitely say/think outright that Dassem's daughter was her replacement when she didn't show for the Chaining. As you say, if it would've killed her I can't imagine her feeling any grief for skipping out, so it seems logical that whatever they needed her for would not have killed her, but would kill a less powerful person like Dassem's daughter (who may have been more powerful than just any mere mortal). That's not to say Envy wouldn't have been weakened by the process, though.

[Hetan]

My thoughts on this is that it wouldn't necessarily have killed Envy - it was a sorceress they needed and she didn't show up to help out, so they took the next best option - which was Dassem's daughter. Yeah I know it's a leap of faith that she would have been a mage, but it's the only thing that really makes sense imo..

I don't recall that it was mentioned that they specifically needed a mortal for the chaining though?

[Abyss]

Envy's speculation in MoI only runs to the extent that her decision not to participate in the last Chaining led to Dassem's daughter's involvement and, by consequence, Dassem's break with Hood and taking on the aspect of Tragedy instead of death. We don't actually know just what Envy was supposed to do or how Das' daughter got involved or what she did. In DG when Fid and co find her body in Tremolor she's wearing the padding that goes under armour, but she's all cut up. That's about all i can recall that we actually know about the chaining and their roles in it.

I still vaguely recall Toc or Envy making some comment in MoI that suggests she was the subject of worship at some point, and her parentage certainly suggests god status, but even so we haven't seen her ref'd as such, i think.

I don't think we've seen anything to suggest that Spite was ever worshipped but it's just as possible.

We also don't actually know that Envy is draconic. Nimander's chat at the end of TtH suggests one can have draconic blood and not do anything with it (ie: not go soletaken).

As an interesting aside, in MoI Envy and Krul suggest that Dassem's break with Death/Hood was a big loss for the ascendents opposing the CG, but if that had not happened, Das would not have been motivated to kill Rake to get at Hood in the finale, hence, Chaos might have won. There are plans within plans there and i wonder if Envy's no-show at the Chaining was actually part of one.

- Abyss, suspicious mind.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

D, on 08 January 2010 - 04:42 AM, said:

H.D., on 07 January 2010 - 11:03 PM, said:

If it demands a mortal's presence doesn't that automatically disqualify Envy as an Elder God?

Edit: Also, I don't know what the role is, the best we can do is speculate. Yours is a good interpretation, but why volunteer for something that could end up killing you was my notion for Envy not wanting to do it.

Envy does definitely say/think outright that Dassem's daughter was her replacement when she didn't show for the Chaining. As you say, if it would've killed her I can't imagine her feeling any grief for skipping out, so it seems logical that whatever they needed her for would not have killed her, but would kill a less powerful person like Dassem's daughter (who may have been more powerful than just any mere mortal). That's not to say Envy wouldn't have been weakened by the process, though.

I wouldn't say that she 'thinks outright' that she was a replacement for Dassem's daughter - she wonders, yes, but she's not sure:

Quote

‘Do you think,’ she asked slowly, ‘that Hood would have taken her
for the Chaining, had I answered the summons?’ Am I, she wondered,
to blame for Dassem Ultor’s loss?

There's an interesting quote from DoD regarding Hood's 'abuses' at the Chainings, quoted below in spoiler tags:

Spoiler

One of the Undead Jaghut:

Quote

"Hood abused our goodwill," the swordwoman said, tusks gleaming with frost, "at the first chaining. He knew enough to face away from us at the next one." An iron-sheathed finger pointed at the Destriant. "Instead, he abused you, child of the Imass. And made of one his deadliest enemy. We yield him no sorrow."

So, two chainings total so far, good to know, and Hood has to do something nasty in order for it to work. I doubt Envy's presence would have obviated the need for some kind of sacrifice. I think it involves an Elder ritual and requires some sort of blood sacrifice, though how a bunch of undead Jaghut could have been 'abused' in that context is beyond me - they seem pretty damned powerful to me and it's heavily implied that they died in the war against Death, so they would have already been undead for the first Chaining. Maybe there were more of them at the first chaining and some of them were consumed by the process?

[rhulad]

I would have to say that both Envy and Spite could be considered gods by association with their parents. Or, assuming that the definition of a god is that they are worshiped then Envy is probably a god since she's been around for so long. Or she could have rejected godhood like Rake did.

-- Above definition of a god means Iskaral Pust is a god... think about that.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

rhulad, on 09 February 2010 - 05:48 PM, said:

I would have to say that both Envy and Spite could be considered gods by association with their parents. Or, assuming that the definition of a god is that they are worshiped then Envy is probably a god since she's been around for so long. Or she could have rejected godhood like Rake did.

-- Above definition of a god means Iskaral Pust is a god... think about that.

i don't imagine being god of the bhok'aralas would give one a whole lot of increased power...but hey, maybe you're right, maybe thats how he surprised st and cotillion and was able to take out dejim nebrahl