[Mael]

OK i started a new thread with this as asked:

The chronology of the elder races is a pain in the ass to be sure. Here is how it stands as i see it:

1) The KCNR arrive/evolve and rule a Technologically superior society. They are accompanied by the more "primitive" KCCM, the early Jaghut, the Forkrul Assail (to what capacity we don't know) and perhaps the Eres'al, who are feral (more ape then human) at this time. The Deragoth rule seven cities.

2) The KCNR die out, leave or are destroyed by the KCCM ("never ignore the barbarians" - Emperor Kellanved). The KCCM Rule as the dominent species.

3) The Eres'all develop a mundane intellegence and are domesticated by the Deragoth on the continent of 7 cities. The KCCM still rule everything else.

4) The Jaghut rise and begin to decimate the KCCM (probably by accident while making the land more "hospitible" at first with thier Omtose Phellak, which would be hazardous to the cold blooded KCCM, and then later for defensive and then offensive purposes). This occurs over a very long period of time. The KCCM resurrect the KCNR to assist them but the KCNR refuse to share thier formidible powers with the matrons and are enslaved. The intellegent Eres'all evolve, reletively unnoticed, into the Imass during this time.

During this time is when the Jaghut formed and subsequently abandoned thier civilization. Chances are that it was formed based on the mutual idea of eliminating the KCCM much like the War against the Tyrants united all the Imass. Thier civilization's subsequent abandonment was most likely due to either a reduced threat from the KCCM or perhaps they saw that they were begininng to treat the newly evolved Imass much like the KCCM treated them and abandoned it all to avoid the KCCMs fate (and ironically this is what occurs because of the tyrants actions later on).

All of point 4 occurs over thousands of years

5) Somewhere during the latter part of point 4 Anomander Rake and his Tiste Andii followers abandon mother dark and arrive on Wu. Go into seclusion.

6) Andarist and his Tiste Andii followers are cast out by mother dark and arrive on Wu. Go into seclusion.

7) The realm of shadow is sundered by Scabandari Bloodeye and Silchas Ruin during an edur civil war and is assailed by a multitude of beings attempting to usurp its power. Forkrul assail enter said warren from the Wu side to reassert "order". The elder god Kilmandaros along with Anomander Rake enters the shattered warren to cleanse and repair the damaged cause by both the sundering and the FA's attempts to passify the invaders.

At the same time on the continent of Letheras the Edur and Ruin's Andii discover one of the few remaining KCCM enclaves (the last is on morn and about to open a portal to chaos and become embroiled in a civil war with the KCNR) and destroy it. After the destruction of the KCCM, the betrayel of silchas ruin and his Tiste Andii, the betrayel of sheltatha lore and the destruction of scabandari bloodeye, Gothos seals the entire continent in a spell that completely isolates it from both the physical and spiritual worlds.

8) The KCNR break thier chains and revolt beginning a civil war with the final remaining KCCM on Morn. The last KCCM matron opens a portal to chaos in an attempt to harness its power and is trapped within the portal. The remaining KCCM die out without her to sustain them effectively ending the KCCM civil war and species. The KCNR leave in thier pimpin sky keeps. (note i have no evidence of the last part but it makes sense)

9) During the time of the KCCM and the Jaghut the Eres'all evolve. By the time the Jaghut have abandoned the trappings of civilization the Eres'all are now the Imass and the Imass begin to spread. The majority of Jaghut see this like the spread of mice or other such short lived vermin and raise islands and wall of ice to prevent it. Eventually certain powerful Jaghut see an opportunity for even more power and enslave the Imass, posing as thier gods and savagely ruling them. These are the Tyrants, the most powerful of them being Raest. Discovering the truth the Imass rise up and, with the help of other Jaghut, imprison or destroy the tyrants. The Imass then turn thier revenge upon ALL the Jaghut and begin thier war of attrition that is increadibly destructive to the environment (entire glaciers rising to cover a continent and then being forced to receed in a single season, etc). THE IMASS ARE STILL MORTAL AT THIS TIME. The "first" Empire is born.

10) Somewhere during this time the TTT had a civilization of thier own and were forced to dismantle it and retreat from total annihilation by either the Forkrul Assail or the Edur (I'm not sure which, maybe both since they were both involved). They were assisted in this by both the Mortal Imass and the Jhag Icarium (still sane. maybe trying to save his mom?). Using ships the mortal Imass and icarium were able to deliver the TTT to the Laedoron Plateau (to hide them few remaining) and imprison the Forkrul Assail "Peace".

During this time the call goes out to all the Mortal Imass to attend the ritual of Tellan. The Imass on the excursion and some of thier TTT allies attempt to make it back but are forced to fight the Edur across the entire ocean scattering them to the various corners of the world and forcing them to miss the ritual. These Imass and TTT breed and evolve into the Barghast/Fenn derivatives which are prevalent pretty much everywhere. The Teblor from Karsa's tribe are the purest of all the TTT offshoots (having been the sucessful result of the Imass/Icarium campaign). Also, some of the Imass sided with the Tiste Edur fighting thier kin at this time. This Imass/Edur union eventually evolved into the Moranth.

11) The Imass invoke the Ritual of Tellan in order to pursue those Jaghut too powerful or to far away for the Imass to destroy in thier mortal forms. Also because the war was costly and the Imass needed a way to keep up thier numbers. Using the power of their ancient beast hold the Imass bound thier spirits together creating the warren of tellan. They brought some of thier domesticated Ay with them because they would have starved to death otherwise.

Days before the ritual Onrack the Broken paints Kilava Onas' sexy likeness on a cave wall making her immortal. Kilava, already being an immortal due to the painting, defies the summoning, kills all of the Tarad Imass except her brother who drives her off. She finds and makes sweet love to Onrack and gives birth to the first members of the human race as we know it.

Onracks wife see's all this and becomes enraged. Despite the Ritual's bindings her, the rage consumes her forcing the other T'lan Imass to sever her from the ritual and leave her somewhere on seven cities. She eventually finds a fragment of KE and becomes the whirlwind goddess.

Shortly before the ritual, Kilava Onas seeks to rescue 2 Jaghut children (Pannion and his sister) from her own kind and imprisons the sister in the rent on Morn by mistake, freeing the KCCM matron.

The Mortal Imass are no more. Humanity is born as are the T'lan Imass and T'lan Ay.

lots of time passes

12) The human first empire is born. Colonies are established, including the one on Letheras. Desembelakis rules the first human empire. The Kallorian empire is also born on Jakuruku shortly after.

13) Powerful mages on the continent of Korelri try to destroy Kallor by capturing the power of a foreign god and instead pull him from his realm and tear him to pieces, ravaging the entire world. Enter The crippled god and the great ravens. Fandarey vanishes into Chaos during the fall leaving togg to wander alone.

14) 3 years after the fall of the Crippled God the Elder gods converge on Jacuruku to destroy Kallor themselves and find the Kallorian Empire destroyed by Kallors own hand (using KCCM/KCNR technology). They curse each other. K'rul prepares a place within himself to contain the dead and shattered land of Jacuruku so that the land can heal (the imperial warren).

15) Desembelakis and his first empire attempt some crazy spell for some strange reason and it all goes wrong (perhaps seeking power against what Kallor unleashed in Jakuruku). Citizens of the first empire are transformed into D'ivers or Soultaken. Most are insane and they tear each other to pieces. The T'lan Imass decide that they don't like whats going on and move in and kill everyone. Some soultaken and d'ivers survive and become the First Heroes (Trake, etc)

16) Long period of pretty much nothing. The free'd matron spends millenia crawling out of her burrow. The T'lan Imass continue hunting while the T'lan Ay continue doing whatever they want. Humanity evolves and spreads, the jaghut die and deminish. The TTT on the plateau evolve into the Teblor. The barghast and moranth evolve. etc, etc.

On the continent of letheras the remaining Edur, the Letherii first empire colony and the tiste Andii that survived the betrayel evolve in isolation.

17) Early in this period in time of reletive quiet, Gothos goes missing. His son Icarium believes that he is being held as a prisoner in a House of the Azath. Icarium destroy's the azath house attempting to free his father and as a result the repaired warren of shadow is sundered once again as is icarium's mind. Unfortunatly it was all for nothing since Gothos was living in the azath by choice as opposed to being its prisoner.

18) Various pieces of the realm of shadow are claimed by various beings (the Whirlwind goddess) over time. The largest is eventually claimed by shadowthrone and cotillion and is labeled as high house shadow.

edit: edited based on information from other readers

[Mael]

edited based on re-read

[Mael]

edited based on re-read

[Dolorous Menhir]

Thanks for posting this separately, there's a lot to talk about in it.

[QUOTE=Mael;165378]OK i started a new thread with this as asked:

The chronology of the elder races is a pain in the ass to be sure. Here is how it stands as i see it:

1) The KCNR arrive and rule a Technologically superior society. They are accompanied by the more "primitive" KCCM, the early Jaghut, the Forkrul Assail (to what capacity we don't know) and perhaps the Eres'al, who are feral (more ape then human) at this time. The Deragoth rule seven cities.[/Quote]

We don't really know much about this time, so this is reasonable. I wouldn't be so sure that the KCNR were the original invaders though. My impression was that the KCNR were extinct evolutionary precursors of the KCCM, and the KCCM later resurrected them using some kind of genetic engineering. This means the two didn't have to naturally coexist at some earlier time.

[Quote]2) The KCNR die out, leave or are destroyed by the KCCM ("never ignore the barbarians" - Emperor Kellanved). [/Quote]

Again, I think they were evolutionary precursors, so I suppose that falls under die out (displaced by evolutionary descendants).

[Quote]3) The Eres'all develop a mundane intellegence and are domesticated by the Deragoth on the continent of 7 cities. The KCCM still rule everything else.

4) The KCCM end up in some kind of struggle for survival (Deragoth or Forkrul Assail??). The KCCM resurrect the KCNR to assist them but the KCNR refuse to share thier formidible powers with the matrons and the KCCM end up fighting a civil war aswell. A Matron opens a portal to chaos in an attempt to harness its power and is trapped within the portal until Kilava Onas free's her by trapping Pannion's jaghut sister in the rent tens of thousands of years later. All this fails to save the KCCM and they are virtually wiped out.[/Quote]

Note also that the Jaghut mounted a rebellion against the KCCM. So we have three reasons for the KCCM downfall.

1 - KCNR civil war
2 - Jaghut rebellion
3 - Tiste invasion (MT prologue)

[Quote]5) The Jaghut rise to power in the vacuum left by the KCCM and rule a wonderful civilization, then abandon it to wander in isolation. This may be due to forsight into the posibility of Tyranny among thier own kind or due to some other catstrophic event. Perhaps they even feared thier empires destruction at the hands of those who destroyed the KCCM. We just don't know.[/Quote]

"Wonderful" civilization? Where does that come from? The Jaghut civilisation dispersed because they just weren't very social it seems, and perhaps once the unifying thread of the KCCM was gone they had no reason to band together. And I suppose the Tyrants were another reason, a Jaghut population center being ripe for domination by a Tyrant - a danger a dispersed population avoids.

[Quote]6) During the time of the Jaghut the Eres'all evolve. By the time the Jaghut have abandoned the trappings of civilization the Eres'all are now the Imass and the Imass begin to spread. The majority of Jaghut see this like the spread of mice or other such short lived vermin and raise islands and wall of ice to prevent it. Eventually certain powerful Jaghut see an opportunity for even more power and enslave the Imass, posing as thier gods and savagely ruling them. These are the Tyrants, the most powerful of them being Raest. Discovering the truth the Imass rise up and, with the help of other Jaghut, imprison or destroy the tyrants. The Imass then turn thier revenge upon ALL the Jaghut and begin thier war of attrition that is increadibly destructive to the environment (entire glaciers rising to cover a continent and then being forced to receed in a single season, etc). THE IMASS ARE STILL MORTAL AT THIS TIME. The "first" Empire is born.[/Quote]

This is all ok, but I'm not totally sure where you are getting the descriptive detail, "spread of mice" etc. You are muddying the timeline somewhat. It's not as simple as

Jaghut & Imass coexist
Tyrants arise, dominate Imass
Imass & non-Tyrant Jaghut overthrow Tyrants
Imass begin pogrom against all Jaghut

I also think the First Empire was created at the same time as the Ritual. I think there was a quote from DG about it, but the First Empire was intimately tied up with the First Throne and the power of the T'lan Imass. I don't think there was an Empire before the Ritual, just clans.

[Quote]This is where is gets muddy

7) A disgraced Andarist and his Tiste Andii followers are cast out by mother dark and arrive on Wu. Go into seclusion.

8) A betrayed Anomander Rake and his Tiste Andii followers abandon mother dark and arrive on Wu. Go into seclusion.

The arrival of the Andii is noted by the Mortal Imass[/Quote]

First - how was Andarist disgraced? He gave up his powers yes, but that was due to an unknown grief provoked by something Scabandari did, not a disgrace. And why do you place him first to arrive, that's something we have no information on. Anomander was came before Ruin, and we don't know when Andarist came to Malazworld.

Is betrayed the right word for Anomander? He fell out with Mother Dark over the creation of the other races yes, but note that this means he left when the Tiste Liosan & Edur were created. So that means he did so before the other events.

And "noted by the Mortal Imass"? What are you talking about here. Yes, the Imass were still mortal at this point but when do we know they were aware of the Tiste Andii?

[Quote]9) The Tiste Edur arrive on Wu to escape the remaining Tiste Andii (most likely lead by Ruin) to find other Tiste Andii already there (led by andarist/rake). The Andii and Edur fight and the Edur win. More Tiste Andii arrive on Wu (with Silchas Ruin) and fight the Edur and once again the Edur win. The remaining Andii are scattered and isolated (some with Ruin, some with Rake and others with Andarist). The remaining Edur begin to build a seafaring empire and end up fighting the mortal Imass and anyone else they encounter making the endevour reletively unsuccessful. Traces can be found in the Moranth, the nerek, the 2nd class citizen edur in the malazan empire and the Tiste Edur on letheras.[/Quote]

Not making a great deal of sense here, I think you are mixing Rake & Ruin when you mean one or the other.

An undescribed civil war forced Ruin's group of Andii from KGalain. The Sundering of KEmurlahn forced Scabandari from KEmurlahn. The two groups allied to fight the remaining KCCM when they entered Malazworld. Then Scabby betrayed Ruin and the Edur slaughtered the Andii.

Some of those Andii survived in the form of the Bluerose. Most of the Edur settled on Lether , some must have ended up on Genebackis to teach the Moranth and other must have turned up in Seven Cities to provide the Edur-bloods on Sepik. They've got nothing to do with the Nerek, and they did not fight the Imass. Note that Onrack had zero knowledge of the Tiste Edur when he met Trull in HoC, and stated that had the Imass known of them they would have found another enemy to eradicate. Where do you get that statement from, that the Edur fought the Imass?

Also, you again refer to Andarist's group of Andii? What group?

[Quote]10) Somewhere during this time the TTT had a civilization of thier own and were forced to dismantle it and retreat from total annihilation by either the Forkrul Assail or the Edur (I'm not sure which, maybe both since they were both involved). They were assisted in this by both the Mortal Imass and the Jhag Icarium (still sane. maybe trying to save his mom?). Using ships the mortal Imass and icarium were able to deliver the TTT to the Laedoron Plateau and imprison the Forkrul Assail "Peace".[/Quote]

The only TTT civilization we know of was the one on Laederon Plateau that was devastated by the Jaghut-Imass war there, the one that attracted the attentions of Calm & Icarium and produced the current day Teblor. Note that the Imass of this battle were already T'lan, and so this entry belongs later in the timeline. And the part where you talk about the ships, what? The TTT civilisation was on Laederon Plateau in the first place, which is why it was destroyed by the battle.

[Quote]During this time the call goes out to all the Mortal Imass to attend the ritual of Tellan. The Imass on the excursion and some of thier TTT allies attempt to make it back but are forced to fight the Edur across the entire ocean scattering them to the various corners of the world and forcing them to miss the ritual. These Imass and TTT breed and evolve into the Barghast/Fenn derivatives which are prevalent pretty much everywhere. The Teblor from Karsa's tribe are the purest of all the TTT offshoots (having been the sucessful result of the Imass/Icarium campaign). Also, some of the Imass sided with the Tiste Edur fighting thier kin at this time. This Imass/Edur union eventually evolved into the Moranth.[/Quote]

Again with the Imass fighting the Edur. If they had been such big enemies before then Onrack would have known who they were. The reason given for the Imass-who-became-the-Barghast not making was the Ritual was that they were simply delayed, not that they were fighting the Tiste Edur. And what's this about Imass siding with the Tiste Edur? If you are talking about the Moranth, then that belong a long long time post-Ritual and involves humans & Edur, not mortal Imass.

[Quote]11) The Imass invoke the Ritual of Tellan in order to pursue those Jaghut too powerful or to far away for the Imass to destroy in thier mortal forms. Also because the war was costly and the Imass needed a way to keep up thier numbers. Using the power of their ancient beast hold the Imass bound thier spirits together giving birth to the warren of tellan. They brought some of thier domesticated Ay with them because they would have starved to death otherwise.[/Quote]

Hmm. The Ritual did not create Tellan. It turned Tellan from a warren of life to a warren of ash, it did not create it. The Ritual was required because the Jaghut were winning the racial war by inducing an Ice Age that was wiping out the mortal Imass. Undeath solved this problem at a stroke.

[Quote]Days before the ritual Onrack the Broken paints Kilava Onas' sexy likeness on a cave wall making her immortal. Kilava, already being an immortal bonecaster due to the painting, defies the summoning, kills all of the Tarad Imass except her brother who drives her off. She finds and makes sweet love to Onrack and gives birth to the first members of the human race as we know it.[/Quote]

Ok, but I'm not sure that Bonecasters were immortal before the Ritual. We've got the painting to explain Kilava's longevity, I doubt flesh-and-blood Bonecasters really lived forever.

[Quote]Onracks wife see's all this and becomes enraged. Despite the Ritual's bindings her, the rage takes control forcing the other T'lan Imass to sever her from the ritual and leave her somewhere on seven cities. She eventually finds a fragment of KE and becomes the whirlwind goddess.[/Quote]

Ok.

[Quote]The Mortal Imass are no more. Humanity is born as are the T'lan Imass and T'lan Ay.

lots of time passes

12) The human first empire is born. Colonies are established, including the one on Letheras. Desembelakis rules the first human empire. The Kallorian empire is also born on Jakuruku shortly after.[/Quote]

Right, good to see you've sorted the order of the Tiste Invasions with relation to this.

[Quote]13) Powerful mages on the continent of Korelri try to destroy Kallor by capturing the power of a foreign god and instead pull him from his realm and tear him to pieces, ravaging the entire world. Enter The crippled god and the great ravens. Fandarey vanishes into Chaos during the fall leaving togg to wander alone.[/Quote]

I don't know about "ravaging the entire world". It was more like "ravaging Korelri".

[Quote]14) 3 years after the fall of the Crippled God the Elder gods converge on Jacuruku to destroy Kallor themselves and find the Kallorian Empire destroyed by Kallors own hand (using KCCM/KCNR technology). They curse each other. K'rul prepares a place within himself to contain the dead and shattered land of Jacuruku so that the land can heal (the imperial warren).

15) Desembelakis and his first empire attempt some crazy spell for some strange reason and it all goes wrong (perhaps seeking power against what Kallor unleashed in Jakuruku). Citizens of the first empire are transformed into D'ivers or Soultaken. Most are insane and they tear each other to pieces. The T'lan Imass decide that they don't like whats going on and move in and kill everyone. Some soultaken and d'ivers survive and become the First Heroes (Trake, etc)[/Quote]

Ok, but opinion on the forum is that a very long period of time separates your points 14 & 15, on the order of tens of thousands of years. So I wouldn't ascribe Dessimbelackis' actions to fear of what Kallor did in Jacuruku.

[Quote]During this failed attempt the realm of shadow is sundered and is assailed by a multitude of beings attempting to usurp its power. Forkrul assail enter said warren to reassert "order". The elder god Kilmandaros along with Anomander Rake enter the shattered warren to cleanse and repair the damaged cause by both the sundering and the FA's attempts to passify the invaders.

At the same time on the continent of Letheras the Edur discover the last surviving KCCM enclave and forge an alliance with Ruin's Tiste Andii to destroy it. After the destruction of the KCCM, the betrayel of silchas ruin and his Tiste Andii, the betrayel of sheltatha lore and the destruction of scabandari bloodeye, Gothos seals the entire continent in a spell that completely isolates it from both the physical and spiritual worlds. The colony from the first empire, unaffected by the ritual back home, is trapped within said spell aswell.[/Quote]

Whoa, this all belonged back at the same time as point 9. The events of the MT prologue occurred before the Imass Ritual, and so an even longer time before the formation of the colony of Lether. Gothos' Ritual did not seal Lether off physically from the rest of the world, so that is no barrier to the Lether settling there much later. Remember that Iron Bars and co. travelled to Lether while Gothos' Ritual was still in effect.

[Quote]16) Long period of pretty much nothing. The free'd matron spends millenia crawling out of her burrow. The T'lan Imass continue hunting while the T'lan Ay continue doing whatever they want. Humanity evolves and spreads, the jaghut die and deminish. The TTT on the plateau evolve into the Teblor. The barghast and moranth evolve. etc, etc.

On the continent of letheras the remaining Edur, the Letherii first empire colony and the tiste Andii that survived the betrayel evolve in isolation.[/Quote]

Right.

[Quote]17) Early in this period in time of reletive quiet, Gothos goes missing. His son Icarium believes that he is being held as a prisoner in a House of the Azath. Icarium destroy's the azath house attempting to free his father and as a result the repaired warren of shadow is sundered once again as is icarium's mind. Unfortunatly it was for nothing since Gothos was living in the azath by choice as opposed to being its prisoner.[/Quote]

The only piece of reliable time info on Icarium's past is that he destroyed a city 100,000 years before the main series. Beyond that we can't say how long he's been crazed (obviously longer than that, but how long?) or even how long he's been alive.

[Quote]18) Various pieces of the realm of shadow are claimed by various beings (the Whirlwind goddess) over time. The largest is eventually claimed by shadowthrone and cotillion and is labeled as high house shadow.[/Quote]

"The warren of Shadow" is Meanas/Rashan, as currently controlled by Shadowthrone. You mean Kurald Emurlahn, it might be better to distinguish clearly between the two.

[Quote]K now that its moved can people please show me why they all believe the tiste races arrived earlier then i have shown?[/QUOTE]

Hopefully I have done so above.

edit:

[quote name='Mael;165392]I agree...but why does everyone assume that the events in the prologue in MT occured directly after the Tiste invasion? When did the Edur fight thier 2 wars for survival against the Andii on Wu then? Afterwards' date=' after the andii had already been significantly diminished? I doubt it. I had always assumed that the events of the prologue occured a good while after the arrival of the Tiste races on Wu.[/QUOTE']

The MT prologue was the Tiste Invasion! They came through a gate and destroyed the KCCM, the gatekeepers.

The dating of the MT prologue couldn't make it any clearer:

[Quote]The First Days of the Sundering of Emurlahn
The Edur Invasion, the Age of Scabandari Bloodeye
The Time of the Elder Gods[/Quote]

The Edur Invasion. I suppose it's not "the Andii invasion" because Anomander's group already had a presence in the world.

[Dragnipurake]

"Again with the Imass fighting the Edur. If they had been such big enemies before then Onrack would have known who they were."

Doesn't someone (t'lan i'mass with trull) mention either in HOC or BH that before the ritual, the imass scattered whenever they came across the edur, maybe on the seas?

[Mael]

Quote

"Again with the Imass fighting the Edur. If they had been such big enemies before then Onrack would have known who they were."

Doesn't someone (t'lan i'mass with trull) mention either in HOC or BH that before the ritual, the imass scattered whenever they came across the edur, maybe on the seas?

Not quite. Onrack and the T'lan Imass never faught the Edur on the seas. Those Imass who did missed the Ritual because of it and eventually evovled into the Barghast/Fenn/Moranth etc.

Quote

Note also that the Jaghut mounted a rebellion against the KCCM. So we have three reasons for the KCCM downfall.

1 - KCNR civil war
2 - Jaghut rebellion
3 - Tiste invasion (MT prologue)

After rereading the prologue of MT i realize that there is a great deal of overlap with the KCCM and the other races. The Tiste Invasion does indeed occure at the same time as the KCCM civil war which places it far before the Letherii colony. And Jaghut rebellion? Thats cool, where did you read it.

The wonderful civilization bit comes from Gothos' musings about the arrogance of the Jaghut civilization of the past.

Quote

This is all ok, but I'm not totally sure where you are getting the descriptive detail, "spread of mice" etc. You are muddying the timeline somewhat. It's not as simple as

Jaghut & Imass coexist
Tyrants arise, dominate Imass
Imass & non-Tyrant Jaghut overthrow Tyrants
Imass begin pogrom against all Jaghut

This is it for the most part...i just added the extra because there was a Jaghut who described the spread of the Imass and detailed the jaghut's effort to limit thier spread and implyed that it was at a time before the Imass had been enslaved by the tyrants but i may have been mistaken.

Quote

I also think the First Empire was created at the same time as the Ritual. I think there was a quote from DG about it, but the First Empire was intimately tied up with the First Throne and the power of the T'lan Imass. I don't think there was an Empire before the Ritual, just clans.

I think you are correct

Quote

First - how was Andarist disgraced? He gave up his powers yes, but that was due to an unknown grief provoked by something Scabandari did, not a disgrace. And why do you place him first to arrive, that's something we have no information on. Anomander was came before Ruin, and we don't know when Andarist came to Malazworld.

Is betrayed the right word for Anomander? He fell out with Mother Dark over the creation of the other races yes, but note that this means he left when the Tiste Liosan & Edur were created. So that means he did so before the other events.

And "noted by the Mortal Imass"? What are you talking about here. Yes, the Imass were still mortal at this point but when do we know they were aware of the Tiste Andii?

There was a discussion somewhere detailing that Andarist had been wronged somehow and i believe it mentioned that he left. I could have been mistaken but i think he left after Anomander did but can't remember why. I'm almost positive he arrived before the tiste invasion tho.

It was noted by a T'lan Imass that, when mortal, they witnessed the arrival of the first Andii on Wu.

Quote

Where do you get that statement from, that the Edur fought the Imass?

In MT the Barghast gods hystory is displayed to Paran. It showed the predecessors of the barghast were half Imass, half TTT. Later Humbral Taur's son cafal describes how thier ancestors were fighting a distant war and were late to the gathering because they had to fight thier entire way back across the seas and had some TTT with them. He described the people his ancestors had faught and named them Tisten enur or some stupid thing, which they broke down to Tiste Edur. This all occured while the Imass were MORTAL, just before the Ritual of Tellan. The moranth were subsequently Imass who sided with the Edur for some reason during this event...accoridng to the barghast cafal in any case. Twist says the barghast are wrong so who knows.

As for the TTT the Imass and Icarium were assisting, they were not native to the plateau. Remember the Writings found by Karsa and Delum thord describing thier dismantling of thier cities and ships after thier mass exodus from whatever civilization they previously inhabited? The TTT fled to the plateau guided by Icarium and protected by the Imass. The laws were created by Icarium to allow the few remaining TTT to survive in thier isolation. The mortal Imass and Icarium then left (or maybe icarium stuck around to construct his time device on the plateau) accompanied by some greatful TTT so that the Imass could get back to thier gathering in time and failed.

Dammit i need to go to a meeting, ill continue this after. laters

[Clip]

I think that in fact the chronology of the Elder Races is a whole lot more complex. It cannot be measured in terms of: this race came, the this one, then it fell, then another one came, etc. etc.

It all overlaps

[Clip]

Ok, now that ive had the time to read the whole thing I see one major miscomprhension, Mael. Ruin and Bloodeye join to fight the KCCM enclave a whole lot mefore what you've sid in your chronology. It was not at the same time as the First Human Empire colony on Letharas. Also the KCCM fell because of the civil war, when Ruin and Bloodeye fought that Matron the civil ar had yet to begin. One of the passages in that prologue was that Ruin and some of the other soletaken dragons assaulted the sky-keeps and that the short-tails fought very well. So obviously there was no civil war at that time, this means that the time of the KCCM was overlapped with the time when the Andii turned teir back on MD. so, i think there's some major revision due.

Have Fun!

[Dolorous Menhir]

Mael;165421 said:

Not quite. Onrack and the T'lan Imass never faught the Edur on the seas. Those Imass who did missed the Ritual because of it and eventually evovled into the Barghast/Fenn/Moranth etc.

In MT the Barghast gods hystory is displayed to Paran. It showed the predecessors of the barghast were half Imass, half TTT. Later Humbral Taur's son cafal describes how thier ancestors were fighting a distant war and were late to the gathering because they had to fight thier entire way back across the seas and had some TTT with them. He described the people his ancestors had faught and named them Tisten enur or some stupid thing, which they broke down to Tiste Edur. This all occured while the Imass were MORTAL, just before the Ritual of Tellan. The moranth were subsequently Imass who sided with the Edur for some reason during this event...accoridng to the barghast cafal in any case. Twist says the barghast are wrong so who knows.

Ok, I think I get you now. If we say that the Ritual-missing Imass fought with the Edur, eventually becoming the Moranth & Barghast, while the Ritual Imass knew nothing about this, that explains things nicely. So we do have Imass fighting Edur, while the T'lan Imass (Onrack in particular) know nothing about it. Sound good?

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After rereading the prologue of MT i realize that there is a great deal of overlap with the KCCM and the other races. The Tiste Invasion does indeed occure at the same time as the KCCM civil war which places it far before the Letherii colony. And Jaghut rebellion? Thats cool, where did you read it.

I think it was Gothos in DG. It was certainly from the words of a Jaghut, but I can't remember which exactly. It was along the lines of "what the Imass did to us, we did to the KCCM first. We made a KCCM-free world possible," hopefully that will jog someones memory.

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There was a discussion somewhere detailing that Andarist had been wronged somehow and i believe it mentioned that he left. I could have been mistaken but i think he left after Anomander did but can't remember why. I'm almost positive he arrived before the tiste invasion tho.

Nitpicking, but wronged is not the same as disgraced. I don't remember any info on when Andarist travelled to the real world to be honest.

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As for the TTT the Imass and Icarium were assisting, they were not native to the plateau. Remember the Writings found by Karsa and Delum thord describing thier dismantling of thier cities and ships after thier mass exodus from whatever civilization they previously inhabited? The TTT fled to the plateau guided by Icarium and protected by the Imass. The laws were created by Icarium to allow the few remaining TTT to survive in thier isolation. The mortal Imass and Icarium then left (or maybe icarium stuck around to construct his time device on the plateau) accompanied by some greatful TTT so that the Imass could get back to thier gathering in time and failed.

Dammit i need to go to a meeting, ill continue this after. laters

I remember the dismantling of the cities, but not the boats. I'll have to check but I still think the TTT civilisation was in the Laederon Plateau and fell as collateral damage to the Imass campaign there. Otherwise why would they be relocated there by Icarium?

[Aptorian]

Dolorous Menhir;165470 said:

I remember the dismantling of the cities, but not the boats. I'll have to check but I still think the TTT civilisation was in the Laederon Plateau and fell as collateral damage to the Imass campaign there. Otherwise why would they be relocated there by Icarium?

Well at least 3 giant "civilizations" now exist, on 3 continents, one on the other side of the world from the malazan empire, so its clear the TTTs got around.

[Coldsnap]

Goddamn, between all of you, i think im finally startin to understand! Thanks a lot!

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Despite the inaccuracies, this is a fairly astounding piece of work. Props to you, Mael (and Dolorious' critiquing already), for making this happen. I do wonder if Icarium's presence on the Laedoron Plateau had to deal with his parentage. It seems that at least one point of his epic life was dedicated towards understanding that.

[Jorram]

Regarding the first half of the starting post (the history before the Imass-Jaghut wars), there is much of inconsistency (some of it is already pointed out) with the revelations from and post-MT

Indeed, to me, there's inconsistency in the books themselves regarding this point and it's one I have still not managed to solve for myself.

To not repeat - http://www.malazanem...read.php?t=5837

[spiralx]

My impression was that the Eres were the first native inhabitants of Wu, and therefore would've either been there when the KCNR/CM arrived, or arose when they were here on SC due the the Deragoth keeping the KC out.

[Mael]

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Despite the inaccuracies, this is a fairly astounding piece of work. Props to you, Mael (and Dolorious' critiquing already), for making this happen. I do wonder if Icarium's presence on the Laedoron Plateau had to deal with his parentage. It seems that at least one point of his epic life was dedicated towards understanding that.

thanks. I realize the mistake i made with the Tiste Edur Invasion. It did indeed occur much earlier then i have show and i will edit it when i have the time.

As for Icarium. I had assumed that, since a Jhag is half Jaghut and half TTT, and since we know his father was the Jaghut half, that he attempted to save the TTT from whatever threat had presented itself because of his mother. I had also assumed that he brought the TTT to the Plateau because of its reletive isolation.

edit: I have edited the chronology

[Imperial Historian]

Good work, dolorous and mael, most of what I have to say has already been said I think but some point's not touched on I believe:

K'chain nah'ruk v k'chain che'malle, there seem to have been suggestions that the nah'ruk or short-tails evolved to live in a different environment to the che'malle, either more or less gravity, which would suggest that either the nah'ruk came to the world, and the che'malle were their evolved ancestors on Wu, the nah'ruk became extinct and were resurrected by the che'malle or there's other possible explanations I suppose...

Re co-existence of the jaghut, k'chain and imass... The k'chain were initially dominant, but it would appear that the rituals of the jaghut civilisation which made the world colder, banished them to more temperate climes, which began the long slow downfall of the k'chain, these rituals were long lasting and seem to be the jaghuts main form of defence, after the jaghut civilisation's dismantling (which occurred before the k'chain's final defeat, bloodeye mentions them as scattered and few in MT prologue) the imass arose, fought the tyrants and entered the ritual, after the jaghut had again enacted ice rituals in defence. The TTT were around during this, but never numerous.

Re TTT civilisation in Laoederon was destroyed by the jaghut/imass, (see hoc mmpb p81) and then formed the teblor on the advice of icarium, dismantling their cities.

Re The ritual, I think this came into play after dessim, there's a quote about him having vanished 800 years prior to the ritual, and the ritual seems to have been completed to smooth the root to changing to soletaken, which was claiming the lives of many from the first empire, but it went wrong and lots of people changed instead.

Edit: Does anyone want to spruce this up, combine it with the other attempts at a timeline we have and put it up on the wiki? Pm me if your interested, or want to help on the wiki in another way.

[Clip]

I think that it pretty much sums it up, Historian, except for the time when the Tiste showed up. We know from the RG prologue that when Bloodeye and Ruin fought that KCCM matron there was also KCNR on the KCCM matron's side. Ruin and some other soletaken gradons assaulted their sky-keeps, and that was why he was so wounded when Bloodeye betrayed him. Therefore the arrival of the Tiste was probably a lot earlier than we think.

[Mael]

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I think that it pretty much sums it up, Historian, except for the time when the Tiste showed up. We know from the RG prologue that when Bloodeye and Ruin fought that KCCM matron there was also KCNR on the KCCM matron's side. Ruin and some other soletaken gradons assaulted their sky-keeps, and that was why he was so wounded when Bloodeye betrayed him. Therefore the arrival of the Tiste was probably a lot earlier than we think.

I edited the chronology with the proper time of the tiste invasion.

We also know the Tiste Edur invasion happened at a time that the resurrected and enslaved KCNR were just about to begin thier civil war agaist the last remaining KCCM Matron on Morn (before she opened the portal to chaos, trapping herself in it and effectively leaving her remaining KCCM powerless) because mael and gothos discuss it in the MT prologue.

The first Tiste Andii arrived on Wu before this but still during the decline of the KCCM empire during the time of the mortal Imass. We know this since the T'lan Imass claim to have witnessed the arrival of the first Andii on Wu.

[Sinisdar Toste]

just read this thread for the first time and i like what i'm seeing for the most part. though i think we need to reconsider the jaghut - kccm relationship in light of (DoD spoilers)

Spoiler

sag'churoks thoughts about the jaghut being to noble to call enemies. we know that the kccm and jaghut coexisted in icarias for a time, so i propose that they managed to co-exist relatively peacefully in elder times.

[IgnatiusKruppe]

Some random questions which are somewhat connected to the deep timeline- this is real rambly.. i'm sure it could go elsewhere, but its late..sorry.

So..were the Eres first to carry the spark of awareness not counting the Deragoth? How did the Deragoth 'domesticate' the Eres if the Deragoth bloodline was harvested during the age of the Imass which i'd presume followed the Age of the Eres? Seems like there would have to be a huge stretch of time between the Deragoth being bred from wild plains bears and their being capable of domesticating a species themselves, no? Going off these quoties

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"An ancient wolf, from the age of the Imass. Their bloodline was harvested in the shaping of the Hounds of Shadow... but not the Hounds of Darkness. For those, it was the bloodline of a breed of plains bear. Ty'nath okral, in the language of the Bentract Imass." - Mappo, DoD, mmpb, p.1038 (thanks encyclopediamalazica)

“Yes,” Ganath agreed, “the Eres’al, who were led unto domestication by the Hounds that adopted them. The Eres’al, who would one day give rise to the Imass, who would one day give rise to humans.” - (BH)

All Eres were bonecasters, Trull Sengar. For they were the first to carry the spark of awareness, the first so gifted by the spirits.’- (HoC, UK Trade, p.659)
(thanks encyclopediamalazica)

The "Four Founding Races" thing confuses me too,, What did they Found exactly? And if the Eres preceded the Imass, how are the Imass a founding race? I'd also have to presume that the K'Chain Che'Malle came long before the other races "Extinct even before the rise of the Jaghut, the T'lan Imass and the Forkrul Assail.. these stones were laid down half a million - perhaps more- ago"

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"Twisted ropes of metal on the anvil, and down came the hammer. The one hammer, the only tool that could forge such a weapon – and he remembered its vast weight, the scalding grip that lacerated his alien hand. Even in her dreaming, Burn had been most displeased"

(TTH,em)

Draconus forged Dragnipur while Burn was "dreaming".. Has there been another mention of Burn being asleep previously or is Dragnipur less than 1,200 years old? Do you think that "Even in her dreaming, Burn had been most displeased" was just a result of it sounding good and nobody catching it? But the GotM prologue says that Burn is young as far as Raest is concerned? but wait..the Fall happened 119,736 years before Burn's sleep, and that was at the same time as the First Empire..Guess he could have spent another 100,000 years after that fixin it up.. Wait.. the Jaghut were on their 33rd pogrom 298,665 years before Burn’s Sleep..sht i dont even know what i was getting at anymore. you know guys..i'm starting to get a- totally unfounded- just a gut feeling- inkling that the timeline of the Malazan Book Of The Fallen may have some tiny inconsistencies.

and to get fully off topic. i noticed this in the t'lan imass article and had forgotten to make this connection..