[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Not sure if this is common knowledge, or easily disprovable, but is it likely that Akhrast Korvalain (I'm not sure if I'm spelling it right, but its the warren of the Forkrul Assail) is the Elder equivalent of Mockra? I'm thinking like a KE/Meanas, KG/Rashan, Thyrllan/Thyr relationship here. There were a couple instances of FA in DoD using some kind of mental power, like the Quitters with their Voice, and then on the Gallan road the Forkrul Assail that Yedan Derryg meets expects to be able to have some power of him once he learns his name, and who he is. Then there's the name, which shows a possible evolution of the name: Akhrast Korvalain-Akhra-Ockra-Mockra...Or something similar. If this is true it's a little bit strange because prior to this book I would NOT have connected the FA with Mockra.

[Silencer]

If I'm reading it right, and admittedly there is some not-quite-supporting evidence in GotM and such, then Korvalain is a sound-based warren. Hence the use of words/voice/song we see in DoD.

It was one of those passing references I picked up on some page on one re-read or other, though I'm not sure whether that was in regards to the K'chain or the Assail. Ofc, given I think the point was in GotM, that wouldn't really make much difference, would it?

I think there is a resemblance to Mockra, and given all the Elder/Hold magic we've seen is a less controlled form of the Warrens that would make sense; words are much more obvious than direct mental control, hence Mockra is a refined version of it. Though there is nothing to suggest a direct link like there is in other cases.

I'll have a scrounge around and see what I can find.

Edit: Found it!

'Kaschan sorcery is born of sounds our ears cannot hear, formed into words that loosen the bindings that hold all matter together, that hold it to the ground. Sounds that bend and stretch light, as a tidal inflow up a river is drawn apart at the moment of turning.'

(MT TB, p.92)

So, as I said, related to the K'chain. Interesting, however, as the Forkrul Assail have been described very much in terms of noises in DoD...but the K'chain did still have their communication that was beyond human hearing. So weird.

[Sinisdar Toste]

ok but what connection is there between the k'chain and ahkrast korvalain? none as far as i can see. if anything i would call their sorcery either kaschan, kep'rah, or simply technology. technology could achieve all those things that fear mentions, and from what silchas ruin tells us in RG the nah'ruk fashioned the constructs that kept out rats and the like and didn't conjure them.
of course this then gets into the question of just how the k'chain sorcery is produced and thats not the topic of this discussion.
point being that korvalain doesn't have to be a warren of sound, it could be just a less refined version of mockra. their commands have to be verbalized, in simple, blunt terms. mockra is a far more elegant and subtle force, tricking and subverting the mind without need for verbalizing, not bludgeoning and battering someone with a shouted "HALT" to force them to obey. simplicity to refinement an all that.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 29 December 2009 - 08:01 AM

[Ulrik]

But KCHMalle arent technologically based. Ganath in TB describes them as Kchain of chaos, counterpart to technological Nahruk, order in extreme form. Long Tails have sky keeps, but their warfare is primary orthodox, Nahruk are much more bind to techology.

Long Tails use magic, its iirc mentioned in prologue of MT, where matrons use sorcery against Andii.

Sorry for my english, terrible headache makes it almost nonexistent...

[Hetan]

I found this passage which kind of connects the K'Chain and Ahkrast Korvalain :-

Quote

Brys leaned back, regarded the tall woman for a moment, and then he said, "There was a god once … I know its name but that isn't particularly relevant now. What is relevant is where it dwelt: in the lands we now called the Wastelands. It lived there and it died there. Its life was stolen from it by a force, a power coming from the K'Chain Che'Malle – a civilization, by the way, that I'd never heard of, but in that god's memories there is the name itself and scattered … images." He shook his head, and after a moment continued, "It may be that this power –" and he glanced over at Aranict for a moment – "is one of these warrens you Malazans have brought to us. Or it could have been a ritual of some sort. Its name was Ahkrast Korvalain. What it did, Captain, was steal the lifeforce of the land itself. In fact, it may well have created the Wastelands, and in so doing it killed the spirits and gods dwelling there, and with them, their worshipers."(DoD)

[Ain't_It_Just_]

That makes it sound necromantic. Didn't seem that way with the Quitters.

[masan's saddle]

Hetan, on 29 December 2009 - 04:29 PM, said:

I found this passage which kind of connects the K'Chain and Ahkrast Korvalain :-

Quote

Brys leaned back, regarded the tall woman for a moment, and then he said, "There was a god once … I know its name but that isn't particularly relevant now. What is relevant is where it dwelt: in the lands we now called the Wastelands. It lived there and it died there. Its life was stolen from it by a force, a power coming from the K'Chain Che'Malle – a civilization, by the way, that I'd never heard of, but in that god's memories there is the name itself and scattered … images." He shook his head, and after a moment continued, "It may be that this power –" and he glanced over at Aranict for a moment – "is one of these warrens you Malazans have brought to us. Or it could have been a ritual of some sort. Its name was Ahkrast Korvalain. What it did, Captain, was steal the lifeforce of the land itself. In fact, it may well have created the Wastelands, and in so doing it killed the spirits and gods dwelling there, and with them, their worshipers."(DoD)

Is'nt this what happened to that bit of the Awldan ? Or am I confusing this with the T'lan ritual ?

Sorry I can't remember but I definatley remember there being a "deadzone", devoid of all life etc, in RG I think.

[T'renn]

Thats odd, Kashann is supposed to be K'Chain....

[Sinisdar Toste]

masan, on 30 December 2009 - 12:57 PM, said:

Hetan, on 29 December 2009 - 04:29 PM, said:

I found this passage which kind of connects the K'Chain and Ahkrast Korvalain :-

Quote

Brys leaned back, regarded the tall woman for a moment, and then he said, "There was a god once … I know its name but that isn't particularly relevant now. What is relevant is where it dwelt: in the lands we now called the Wastelands. It lived there and it died there. Its life was stolen from it by a force, a power coming from the K'Chain Che'Malle – a civilization, by the way, that I'd never heard of, but in that god's memories there is the name itself and scattered … images." He shook his head, and after a moment continued, "It may be that this power –" and he glanced over at Aranict for a moment – "is one of these warrens you Malazans have brought to us. Or it could have been a ritual of some sort. Its name was Ahkrast Korvalain. What it did, Captain, was steal the lifeforce of the land itself. In fact, it may well have created the Wastelands, and in so doing it killed the spirits and gods dwelling there, and with them, their worshipers."(DoD)

Is'nt this what happened to that bit of the Awldan ? Or am I confusing this with the T'lan ritual ?

Sorry I can't remember but I definatley remember there being a "deadzone", devoid of all life etc, in RG I think.

yeah that was the tellan ritual, happened on bast fulmar. the way they talk about AK in that quote hetan brought up makes it seem more like a nuclear bomb of a gate or something. pay enough blood and you can wipe out all life for miles and miles around. now with this bit of info hetan gives us i'll concede that the k'chain probably did use AK at some point, but now that the FA are apparently trying to open it it makes me think that it's not claimed by either one of them. maybe it's just a ritual, like suggested. either way, if the k'chain used it to suck the wastelands dry, maybe the FA are using it to suck the CG dry

[HoosierDaddy]

Sinisdar Toste, on 30 December 2009 - 09:52 PM, said:

masan, on 30 December 2009 - 12:57 PM, said:

Hetan, on 29 December 2009 - 04:29 PM, said:

I found this passage which kind of connects the K'Chain and Ahkrast Korvalain :-

Quote

Brys leaned back, regarded the tall woman for a moment, and then he said, "There was a god once … I know its name but that isn't particularly relevant now. What is relevant is where it dwelt: in the lands we now called the Wastelands. It lived there and it died there. Its life was stolen from it by a force, a power coming from the K'Chain Che'Malle – a civilization, by the way, that I'd never heard of, but in that god's memories there is the name itself and scattered … images." He shook his head, and after a moment continued, "It may be that this power –" and he glanced over at Aranict for a moment – "is one of these warrens you Malazans have brought to us. Or it could have been a ritual of some sort. Its name was Ahkrast Korvalain. What it did, Captain, was steal the lifeforce of the land itself. In fact, it may well have created the Wastelands, and in so doing it killed the spirits and gods dwelling there, and with them, their worshipers."(DoD)

Is'nt this what happened to that bit of the Awldan ? Or am I confusing this with the T'lan ritual ?

Sorry I can't remember but I definatley remember there being a "deadzone", devoid of all life etc, in RG I think.

yeah that was the tellan ritual, happened on bast fulmar. the way they talk about AK in that quote hetan brought up makes it seem more like a nuclear bomb of a gate or something. pay enough blood and you can wipe out all life for miles and miles around. now with this bit of info hetan gives us i'll concede that the k'chain probably did use AK at some point, but now that the FA are apparently trying to open it it makes me think that it's not claimed by either one of them. maybe it's just a ritual, like suggested. either way, if the k'chain used it to suck the wastelands dry, maybe the FA are using it to suck the CG dry

Quote

'Kolanse has been usurped,' said Tavore. 'Not in the name of the Crippled god, but in the name of justice. Justice of a most terrible kind.'

Quick Ben said, 'Ahkrast Korvalain.'

....

'The Elder Warren, Fist,' said the Adjunct, 'of the Forkrul Assail.'

'They are preparing the gate,' quick Ben said, 'and for that, they need lots of blood. Lots.'

Quote

He understood now. The gods of war and what they meant, what their very existence signified. And as he stared upon those jade sun searing ever closer, he was overwhelmed by the futility hiding behind all this arrogance, the mindless conceit.

See us wave our banners of hate.
See where it gets us.

A final war had begun. Facing an enemy against whom no defence was possible. Neither words nor deeds could fool this clear-eyed arbiter. Immune to lies, indifferent to excuses and vapid discourses on necessity, on the weighing of two evils and the facile righteousness of choosing the lesser one- and yes, these were the argument he was hearing, empty as the ether they traveled.

We stood tall in Paradise. And there called forth the gods of war, to bring destruction down on ourselves, our world, the very earth, its air, its water, its myriad life. No, show me no surprise, no innocent bewilderment. I see now with the eyes of the Abyss. I see now with my enemy's eyes, and so I shall speak with its voice.

Behold, my friends, I am justice.

And when at last we meet, you will not like it.

1. We've seen that peoples can use more than one magic, so it'd be no surprise the K'Chain could use the warren of the Forkrul Assail.

2. The FA plan to use the power of the Crippled God to open up a gate to the Jade Statues so they can destroy everything. All the Gods of War are answering because the FA are waging war on everyone.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 10 January 2010 - 05:15 AM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

What do you mean by opening up a gate to the Jade Statues? Do you mean that the FA want to open a gate for the Jade Statues to come crashing through and basically destroy the planet from the impact? Or do you think they want to usurp the power of the Jade Statues to create a sort of life ending ritual? (like Kallor, but on a worldwide level, not just continent)

[HoosierDaddy]

I'm trying to think of the purpose of the Jade Statues and the tie in with justice as Heboric talks about. I think the FA have judged that the world needs destroyed, and that's the easiest way to go about it.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

So, do you think Heboric is in some way connected to the FA? Or do you think since they are going to try and use the Crippled God and the Jade Statues (and Heboric obviously has some connection that we aren't so sure about with the Jade Statues) Heboric talks about "looking through his enemies eyes" and the justice they think to bring?

As an aside, another really cryptic use of the concept of justice in the series is in TtH. One of the HoL in the climactic scene talk about getting Dragnipur for their master, because it is the perfect sword of justice. Based on that, the long absences of FL and Osserc from the Tiste Liosan, and the fact that we see an FA on the Gallan road stating that those lands had been redistricted for adjudication along with Tiste Liosan, do you think the FA have taken over Kurald Thryllan?

[Abyss]

Some interesting stuff here...

The FA and the Liosan once fought 'The Just Wars' 9if i have that right) over, iirc, whose concept of 'Justice' was correct. I speculated elsethread that the Inquisitors were a Liosan/FA mix left over in the aftermath of that conflict. See see what appears to be FA and Liosan working together in DoD, so an alliance is possible. Both are fanatics in their own way, and the CG is very good at subverting fanatics.


I like the link to Mokra theory, and the scene with the Inquisitors and Badalle certainly seemed very Mokra as opposed to Kashan or any other warren.

That said, i suspect that AK as an elder warren lacks the 'subtlety' of Mokra. That doesn't mean the Inquisitors and Badalle didn't use it, just that i'm doubting the link is there between Mokra and AK.

I figured the gate being worked on in Kolanse is to send the CG home, but that the effect of this will be dire for the world, especially if the AK warren triggers what Brys was remembering.

Brys' recollection also resembles the description of the dead zone the Awl used in RG, which makes me wonder whether Awl legend had it wrong, or perhaps there was another warren at work when the Imass did the Ritual.

- Abyss, in the zone.

[masan's saddle]

Slightly crazy theory time.

My knowledge of where the FA came from is very sketchy ( chronology, how long they have been around etc)

Could their preoccupation with "total justice" stem from sympathy for the CG and what happened to him ?

Could the CG have corrupted/manipulated them so much that their total aim in life is actually "his"? Could what they are doing actually be the culmination of the CG's long game ?

After reading this thread there definatley seems to be a consensus about the connection between the CG, FA and Jade Statues, could this be it ?

Justice=Revenge=End of Sports for Wu=Smug CG

Probably bollocks.....

[Urizen]

masan, on 13 January 2010 - 11:17 PM, said:

Slightly crazy theory time.

My knowledge of where the FA came from is very sketchy ( chronology, how long they have been around etc)

Could their preoccupation with "total justice" stem from sympathy for the CG and what happened to him ?

Could the CG have corrupted/manipulated them so much that their total aim in life is actually "his"? Could what they are doing actually be the culmination of the CG's long game ?

After reading this thread there definatley seems to be a consensus about the connection between the CG, FA and Jade Statues, could this be it ?

Justice=Revenge=End of Sports for Wu=Smug CG

Probably bollocks.....

I wouldn't be suprised if the CG is responsible for their "supergate" scheme. Given that the FA's seem to into "final justice" and their tendancies to wipe everybody they come across out, the CG might very well have manipulated them into creating one big "supergate" to wipe out all the "infidels" in one go, rather than wander around and pick them off on by one.

[masan's saddle]

It was Abyss' mentioning of the Just Wars, afaik still, nobody knows wtf those wars were about. Could it have been about whether opposing sides thought the bringing down of the CG was "just" or not ?

Dunno, just an idea

[Abyss]

I'm blanking, but isn't there a quote somewhere that the FA and the Liosan fought a war over whose interp of 'justice' was correct?

Consider the FA we've seen: Calm in HoC was a stone cold killer but rationale. Serenity in MT was a bit whackjob. All the other FA in MT were dead which doesn't tell us much, although Silchas does comment that as a species they needed to be killed. maybe they needed to be killed because they were turning from a race of rationale killers like Calm into a race of sociopaths like Serenity.

In DoD we see two FA guarding warrens but they are killed by the Watch and the Nacht demons before anyone can chat with them.

And then we have the Inquisitors, who seem to be diluted FA fanatics.

Look at the job the CG did on the Pannion Domin (theocracy into canaballistic fanatic dictatorship) and the Letherii Edur (tribal monarchy into invading dictatorship with a penchant for massacres) and it certainly seems like whatever was left of FA civilization after Silchas and the Just Wars were done was ripe for the CG to work his mojo.

And just for good measure, we have the Liosan. Elitist fanatics dedicated to serving a God who really doesn't give a crap about them, ignores then and generally sets a bad example. In HoC it's hinted that Osserc has been out of touch with the Liosan a looooong time. maybe their faith was suficiently shaken that the CG could offer them an alternative, or set up his own proxy after the Imass took out Loric's demon standin.

- Abyss, notes this is really shaping up to be good.

[HoosierDaddy]

Reaper's Gale, 394:

Quote

'No. Forkrul Assail and Tiste Liosan. They fought on the ruins. during what they called the Just Wars. Here, it was only a skirmish, but nobody surived. They killed each other, and the lat warrior standing had a hold in her throat and she bled out right where the Fist is standing. She was Forkrul Assail, and her last thought was about how victory proved they were right and the enemy was wrong. Then she died.'

Reaper's Gale, 395:

Quote

'That's the thing with the Just Wars - they never end and never will because Justice is a weak god with too many names. The Liosan called it Serkanos (Osserc) and the Assail called it Rynthan (Ruthan Guud????). Anyway, no matter what language it spoke, its followers could not understand it. A mystery language, which is why it has no power because all its followers believe teh wrong things - things they just make up and nobody can agree and that's why the wars never end.'

[dracayr]

note on the voice compulsion of the FA: if it uses Akhrast Korvalain, it would be strange that Badalle could use it. Personally, I think it's something more primal than warrens (there seem to be many definitions of power: "presence", "pattern", words (ex.: the god in Dragnipur), maybe this is based on sth. like that).

Regarding the FA, the Jade Giants, and the CG: My (more than slightly crazy) theory: I think that the JG are a "punitive army" , come to punish (destroy) the world for bringing down the CG. The FA see this as "just", and thus aim to help them. The Bonehunters, and the adjunct aim to free the CG, thus hoping to save the world by a) trying to appease the JG and the FA and b ) trying to set the CG himself against them (the CG never seemed to strive for total annihilation of the World).
Reasons why this makes sense (IMO):
-In DoD, many ancient forces awaken once again. Now, wouldn't the impending destruction of the world be a good reason to resurface?
-A main Plotline reveals itself (total annihilation of the world vs. saving the world), into which various characters seem to fit (Karsa, Whirlwind, Leoman, Icarium, etc.)
-The urgency of the Adjunct's mission (she _must_ do this, which both she herself and the perish seem to know)
-The CG's Role as "Deathslayer" would be explained
-Shadowthrone and Cotillion have traveled far (possibly in other worlds) via the Azath, thus maybe know something about all of this (though their ultimate goal still remains unclear). Uncanny Bastards.

Now, tell me whether this makes sense

This post has been edited by dracayr: 26 January 2010 - 11:19 PM