[ReAVeR_ZA]

Hi there guys, first time poster here. I've read all the way up to DoD already and so started a re-read of the series in preparation for the final chapter. I'm about 2/3 thru The Bonehunters, and got to the section where Cotilion looks in on Trull, Onrack and co defending the First Throne. On his way out he has a conversation with the boy, Panek:

Quote

The god headed that way.
Panek swung to face him. 'I miss him,' he said.
'Who?'
'Edgewalker.'
'Why? I doubt that sack of bones could fight his way out of a birch-bark coffin.'
'Not to fight at our sides, Uncle. We will hold here. Mother worries too much.'
'Which mother?'
A hideous, sharp-toothed smile. 'Both.'
'Why do you miss Edgewalker, then?'
'For his stories.'
'Oh, those.'
'The dragons. The foolish ones, the wise ones, the living ones and the dead ones. If every world were but a place on the board, they would be the game pieces. Yet no single hand directs them. Each is wild, a will unto itself. And then there are the shadows – Edgewalker explained about those – the ones you can't see.'
'He explained, did he? Well, clearly the hoary bastard likes you more than he does me.'
'They all cast shadows, Uncle,' Panek said. 'Into your realm. Every one of them. That's why there's so many prisoners.'
Cotillion frowned, then, slowly, inexorably as comprehension dawned, the god's eyes widened.

So at the time, I couldn't figure out what had suddenly dawned on Cotillion. I did a search in The Bonehunters forum and only found a short thread in which it was said that Quick Ben elaborated on Cotillion's realization in Reaper's Gale. But for the life of me I can't remember what that revelation was. So would anybody care to enlighten me? Pretty please, with sprinkles on top?

This post has been edited by ReAVeR_ZA: 28 December 2009 - 06:14 PM

[Obdigore]

From what I understand, the belief is that everything on Wu (the world, not the warrens) has a shadow-counterpart in the Shadow Realm.

My thought is that this means that by exploring the shadow realm, you can figure out what is happening and where on Wu without having to be there with the chance of being observed.

This may or may not be true, and I would imagine that tCG will let us know just what Cot learns there.

[HoosierDaddy]

I have to say it has to do with Starvald Demelain, and Cots' and ST's plot to get a one time entry there in R.G. with Menandore.

[Obdigore]

 H.D., on 28 December 2009 - 07:21 PM, said:

I have to say it has to do with Starvald Demelain, and Cots' and ST's plot to get a one time entry there in R.G. with Menandore.

I don't know that they need that 'one time entry' anymore as they have that Azath house in the gate room in the refugeum that has an entrance to Starvald Demelain, among others, right?

[HoosierDaddy]

Possibly, but why ask for the "one time" if they can use the Azath at will to get there? Unless they used it to plant QB, Trull, and Onrack there in the plot to build the Azath. Then it would make sense because they were creating their to be used more commonly path. Another useful aspect is that their are gates to many realms in that Azath, because the Gate to S.D. opened up around so many more.

We'll find out, I imagine.

[ReAVeR_ZA]

Thanks for the response guys. The "everything casts a shadow in the shadow realm" makes sense, but surely that would have been obvious knowledge to ST and Cotty before? I mean, in TBH, when Apsalar is travelling with Telorast and Curdle through the warren, she comes across the hazy "shadow" of Ganoes Paran's boat. She is able to climb onto this boat as if it were in the warren with her. Which means that these "shadows" can be manipulated from within the Shadow Realm.

[Silencer]

Yes, one would imagine that fact to be well known to the rulers of Shadow by then. In fact, I can't imagine Cotillion being unaware of it at all. Just not possible.

In which case, I strongly suspect it to be something we've all missed, and to be revealed in tCG. XD

[ReAVeR_ZA]

I think it directly relates to the "shadows" of dragons, and not just "shadows" in general. Dragons are the source of all sorcery/magic right? So maybe these shadows are the various flavours of magic we see floating around? Maybe by directly addressing the dragons, one could change the shape of these shadows, so to speak? I.e. change the rules of the game when it comes to how magic works.

[Votan]

In one of the books, I'm thinking Reaper's Gale because I think it was Seren Padac talking to Mockra, wasn't it revealed that each warren is tied to a dragon? In what way, or relation, the warren is linked to the dragon is unknown, but the passage sounds like it would be tied to this.

The dragons cast shadows (warrens?), and so there are many eleint prisoners kept to be used in this function. I mean, where are all the true eleint's anyway? Lots of soletaken, but maybe 2-3 "real" dragons have been seen.

This post has been edited by Votan: 21 February 2010 - 05:44 PM

[Hetan]

It was in Bonehunters.
They all retreated into Starvald Demelain in line with the bargain (pact) they made with K'rul, except for Silanah of course.

[Votan]

 Hetan, on 21 February 2010 - 06:27 PM, said:

It was in Bonehunters.
They all retreated into Starvald Demelain in line with the bargain (pact) they made with K'rul, except for Silanah of course.

Okay. So it seems to me that Cotillion is realizing this connection between warrens and dragons in the scene the OP described.

[geNESis]

'They all cast shadows, Uncle,' Panek said. 'Into your realm. Every one of them. That's why there's so many prisoners.'
Cotillion frowned, then, slowly, inexorably as comprehension dawned, the god's eyes widened.


Possiblly the Azath, but I don't believe that one way or the yet, just musing.

[foolio]

Quote

The god headed that way.
Panek swung to face him. 'I miss him,' he said.
'Who?'
'Edgewalker.'
'Why? I doubt that sack of bones could fight his way out of a birch-bark coffin.'

In DoD we are given a POV where someone is scared fo edgewalker right? My memory is hazy but I seem to recall maybe the Errant being somewhat scared of him, or do I have it all wrong?

This post has been edited by foolio: 03 March 2010 - 08:26 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Edgewalker is definitely a powerful being. I think Cotillion was just kind of making a snide comment at Edgewalker's expense because he doesn't really like him.

[Abyss]

 foolio, on 03 March 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:

...In DoD we are given a POV where someone is scared fo edgewalker right? My memory is hazy but I seem to recall maybe the Errant being somewhat scared of him, or do I have it all wrong?

Yes, and it's Kila and Osserc, which says a helluva lot about how powerful Edgy might be (When they are gathering the EG's, Errant comments that Edgewalker won't show up, which is what i think you had in mind).

The OP excerpt has always bugged me, especially the link between 'they all cast shadows' and 'that's why there are so many prisoners'.

It's really only the Azath that fill the prisoner link. We also know that ST/Cots seized control of Meanas after travelling the Azath for a decade or so.

And we've seen (HoC, amongst others) that there are literally beings chained up, buried or whatever, all over Meanas.

So whose shadows....?

eleint? I don't think so. Some dragons were aspected to warrens by krul, but we see those and it doesn't explain the prisoner thing.

other warrens? this was the explanation i usually go. So prisoners are bound in the shadow of their own realm. keeps them REALLY out of the way. workable, but it doesn't quite ring true.

the Azath? well, they bind people just fine by themselves (usually). Although maybe Meanas being where the Azath cast shadows is why others have been imprisoned there... the realm just has an affinity for binding things.

beings of power generally? i'm really vague with this, but maybe ascendents cast a 'shadow' that extends beyond their own dimension or warren, and that can be anchored in the shadow warren?

I dunno... this is one of the mysteries of the series that still stumps me.


- Abyss, ...quick, to the Mystery Machine!

[foolio]

thanks gentlemen.

[champ]

Quote

And then there are the shadows – ... – the ones you can't see.'
...
'They all cast shadows' ... 'Into your realm. Every one of them. That's why there's so many prisoners.'
Cotillion frowned, then, slowly, inexorably as comprehension dawned, the god's eyes widened.

find it easier to think about a sentance when i get rid of all the faff in the middle, more for my own use to can look at it and rack my brain for anything it could remotely be... but what... stumped!