[Votan]

It was great to see Temper reunite with Ferrule, if brief, but I have serious problems with his presence in the army to begin with.

Why would he be there, when he's all about laying low and staying where he is in NoK? After the events there, he has even more reason to stay in Malaz, with his connection to the Azath. I can't think of any reason he would go march with Laseen, especially against the old guard.

What is he doing? Why is he doing it?

I realize there's no real answer to this, but I would have liked to see something, anything, that keyed the reader into his thought process during RotCG.

[D'rek]

Well since Braven Tooth showed up with him, I'd have figured them two had decided that their presence was necessary. Both are old hands from the early days of the empire, so against both the Crimson Guard and the Talian League there could be a host of personal issues stemming from long ago that would be motivation enough for them.

If there ever was a full explanation for it, it was probably one of the many things ICE had to cut out of this novel (he said in an interview that it was originally too big and he had to remove a lot of little things to make it publishable size)...

[HoosierDaddy]

It's said that they knew their confronting Skinner would draw out Dassem. They knew the threat Skinner posed, so it's possible they viewed it as the only way to nullify the Guard's advantage there.

[D'rek]

 H.D., on 23 December 2009 - 04:15 AM, said:

It's said that they knew their confronting Skinner would draw out Dassem. They knew the threat Skinner posed, so it's possible they viewed it as the only way to nullify the Guard's advantage there.

Oooh, I definitely missed that. I like that, actually, could definitely see Temp and Ferrule showing up because they knew Dassem would be there and would need their backup.

[Aptorian]

Also, keep in mind that RCG takes place perhaps 15 years after NoK. Things change.

[Votan]

 H.D., on 23 December 2009 - 04:15 AM, said:

It's said that they knew their confronting Skinner would draw out Dassem.

Where? You mean Dassem's words when he shows up? That was him making a joke about his old friends. I sincerely doubt Temper had foreknowledge that Ferrule was there as the Wildman, or that they would come together against Skinner. I further doubt they have the desire to "summon" Dassem to them. They both know he's alive, they both know he doesn't want others aware of this. They also don't really talk to, or ask/relay anything of/to him before he vanishes. This answer doesn't work for me.

Quote

They knew the threat Skinner posed, so it's possible they viewed it as the only way to nullify the Guard's advantage there.

Sure, but why would Temper care? He doesn't like Laseen or the current direction of the empire, nor does he have any desire to get involved.

[Votan]

 Aptorian, on 23 December 2009 - 08:47 AM, said:

Also, keep in mind that RCG takes place perhaps 15 years after NoK. Things change.

This is true. However, I would make two observations I feel relevant:

1. The Bonehunter's did not take place 15 years ago, and not much seemed to have changed there.

2. Should there have been such a significant change in Temper's thinking, it is surely something an author should strive to convey to the reader. Some insight into Temper's thoughts, attitude toward's the current empire, and/or the Guard would have been appropriate.

[HoosierDaddy]

 Votan, on 24 December 2009 - 12:37 AM, said:

 H.D., on 23 December 2009 - 04:15 AM, said:

It's said that they knew their confronting Skinner would draw out Dassem.

Where? You mean Dassem's words when he shows up? That was him making a joke about his old friends. I sincerely doubt Temper had foreknowledge that Ferrule was there as the Wildman, or that they would come together against Skinner. I further doubt they have the desire to "summon" Dassem to them. They both know he's alive, they both know he doesn't want others aware of this. They also don't really talk to, or ask/relay anything of/to him before he vanishes. This answer doesn't work for me.

Quote

They knew the threat Skinner posed, so it's possible they viewed it as the only way to nullify the Guard's advantage there.

Sure, but why would Temper care? He doesn't like Laseen or the current direction of the empire, nor does he have any desire to get involved.

What Temper knew to be true was that Skinner was with the Guard. What Temper knew was that the Malazan's possessed noone who could stop him.

Further, why would he care? Better the enemy you know than the one you don't? Hatred of the Guard trumping a distaste in the Empire? Laseen knew Temper wasn't dead and was willing to let him lie low. I'm unsure as to where you think he views the current direction of the empire in a bad light. He's still in Malaz City, ain't he?

Ferrule is there because he doesn't want the Seti involved. Temper is there for the above stated reasons. They meet each other in an attempt to confront Ryllandaras. At that point, both know each other are there. At that point it IS safe to assume they believe they could draw Traveler out to engage Skinner if they both got involved.

[Votan]

 H.D., on 24 December 2009 - 02:20 AM, said:

What Temper knew to be true was that Skinner was with the Guard.

Well, actually, he has no way to know anything about the guard. He could surmise it likely, though, yes.

Quote

What Temper knew was that the Malazan's possessed noone who could stop him.

Based on? We're inferring deep hatred of Skinner from what exactly?

Quote

Further, why would he care? Better the enemy you know than the one you don't?

Sure, but as the "?" indicates, you're guessing/rationalizing. ICE needed to indicate this to the reader if it were true. There is nothing in the text to support it.

Quote

Hatred of the Guard trumping a distaste in the Empire?

So, in your mind, he dislikes the otherwise honorable guard (simply because Dassem couldn't kill Skinner in the past), more than the woman who murdered the Sword and attempted to murder him and Dassem? I find this unlikely, to say the least.

Quote

Ferrule is there because he doesn't want the Seti involved.

I have no problem with Ferrule being there, his actions make sense.

Quote

They meet each other in an attempt to confront Ryllandaras. At that point, both know each other are there. At that point it IS safe to assume they believe they could draw Traveler out to engage Skinner if they both got involved.

One, this is well after Temper initially leaves, so it does nothing to answer why he is there in the first place. Two, Dassem was joking! His statement was the equivalent of a guy following his troublemaker friend and rolling his eyes at the shenanigans the friend gets him into. Temper is simply not the kind of person to want or try to "draw" Dassem anywhere. This is reminiscent of people thinking Temper is ST's child.

Temper and Ferrule went after Skinner because they're tough and don't run away when outgunned, not because they were praying Traveller would save them.

This post has been edited by Votan: 24 December 2009 - 02:56 AM

[dktorode]

Just because Temper doesnt like Laseen doesnt mean he wont come to the aid of the Malazans if he feels the threat to be real.
He never went to help laseen, he went to help his malazan comrades.
Likely braven tooth talked him into it or something and ICE felt that the explenation was no needed and cut it out as he had a book that was too long.

In other words the explanation is either going to come later on because its a big part of a bigger p[icture....or it is so insignificant it didnt really matter in the greater scheme of things if we know why.
Its open to the readers own interpereation for now...perhaps purposely so.

[Hinter]

Seems to me he knew old comrades were in danger so he brought himself back into the game. As NoK shows, he's not one to lie low when the excrement is hitting the fan. He may be reluctant to get involved but if he feels his presence is necessary he will jump right in at the deep end.