[Abyss]

Graciously provided by SE and posted by Hetan, discussion may proceed in the TCG forum.

Note: technically the below is SPOILERS, so to speak. You have been warned.

- Abyss, giddy AND staggered.

-------------

Cotillion drew two daggers. His gaze fell to the blades. The blackened iron surfaces seemed to swirl, two pewter rivers oozing across pits and gouges, the edges ragged where armour and bone had slowed their thrusts. He studied the sickly sky’s lurid reflections for a moment longer, and then said, “I have no intention of explaining a damned thing.” He looked up, eyes locking. “Do you understand me?”
The figure facing him was incapable of expression. The tatters of rotted sinew and strips of skin were motionless upon the bones of temple, cheek and jaw. The eyes held nothing, nothing at all.
Better, Cotillion decided, than jaded skepticism. Oh how he was sick of that. “Tell me,” he resumed, “what do you think you’re seeing here? Desperation? Panic? A failing of will, some inevitable decline crumbling to incompetence? Do you believe in failure, Edgewalker?”
Edgewalker remained silent for a time, and then the apparition spoke in a broken, rasping voice. “You cannot be so … audacious.”
“I asked if you believed in failure. Because I don’t.”
“Even should you succeed, Cotillion. Beyond all expectation, beyond, even, all desire. They will still speak of your failure.”
He sheathed his daggers. “And you know what they can do to themselves.”
The head cocked, strands of hair dangling and drifting. “Arrogance?”
“Competence,” Cotllion snapped in reply. “Doubt me at your peril.”
“They will not believe you.”
“I do not care, Edgewalker. This is what it is.”
When he set out, he was not surprised that the deathless guardian followed. We have done this before. Dust and ashes puffed with each step. The wind moaned as if trapped in a crypt. “Almost time, Edgewalker.”
“I know. You cannot win.”
Cotillion paused, half-turned. He smiled a ravaged smile. “That doesn’t mean I have to lose, does it?”

[Abyss]

Two things pop into my mind at this.

One is that Cotillion is about to do something that Edgewalker will have to try and stop him from, even if Edgy doesn't want to. "Almost time, Edgewalker." means they are reaching a point where edgy will HAVE to act.


The other is that Cotillion is about to do something related to the three chained dragons, but I can't figure out why Edgy would be shocked when in TB he was encouraging Cots to free them.


- Abyss, ...on edge. wait... ew...

[Urizen]

My first thought is that Cotillion is about to try to kill the CG, no more chaining/reduction of power. In tBH he is fishing for info about how to kill an Elder God.

[Grief]

Edgewalker seems to imply that whatever he's doing has no good ending. The fact that people will still see it as a failure even if he manages his goal seems to imply that much. So, there's no way he can get a good outcome. "That doesn't mean I have to lose". So, seems to me he's going for some kind of compromise in a situation that can't be won. First thing to come to mind when I thought about that was Rake and Broods coversation about Burn in Memories. There are two choices, wake Burn or let her die, and neither is a good one. However, I think that cotillion doing something to Burn seems unlikely, since he's not shown that much interest in her before.

“Competence,” Cotllion snapped in reply. “Doubt me at your peril.”
“They will not believe you.”

This I think is to do with the dragons. They won't do what he wants because they don't believe cotillion competent of upholding whatever half of the bargain he tries to make with them.

"We have done this before" could be to do with the dragons. Or it could be to do with the last chaining. Or it could be a clever throwback to BH, all the stuff about how long edgewalker has lived and how he's been through everything before.

I don't believe edgewalker and cotillion are going to have some sort of confrontation. Edgewalker I think is there to witness. If so though, i'm not sure what would force Edgewalker to act. He's guardian of shadow, so it could be something to do with that, or it could be something generally bad...

[Pig Iron]

From the context of the quote of SE talking about his writing and the series, I think (Captain Obvious maybe) there is a little bit of a message there ...

[D'rek]

The first thing that came to my mind was Cotillion killing Ammanas, but it could be just about anything. The noting of the daggers makes me think Cotillion is killing something important, though.

[Aptorian]

I think he's going to something radical. Like interfering in the release of the OD, or maybe go kill Brood and take the hammer. I think it's going to be something drastic and damaging.

This is a side not, but I think there is perhaps going to happen a shift in the relationship between Cots and ST. It's not implied in the text, but I've gotten the impression that Cots and ST are now playing two different games.

[Obdigore]

My guess:

He is going to release the 3 dragons, then release the Otat dragon.

(did we see Otat released in the end of DoD, or where they just planning/getting ready?)

While the Otat hunts down those that imprisoned it, he is also going to release the CG. Because who uses chaos (not the warren) best? Malazans. Cotillion is going to kick the board, freeing everybody from any rules, and see what tumbles down. Meanwhile ST is going to be prepared to stick his bony ass on throne after throne if/when any throne-sitter gets taken out. However, Cot is going to think ST will back him up, and ST will not, causing Cot to probably die while ST gains a ton of power.

Final thing in the series:

ST gains enough power to kill off the other gods one by one, killing any who do not have an opposing equil. He then sits on all the vacant thrones, and does NOTHING.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 21 December 2009 - 10:42 PM

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

My impression is that Cotillion has just killed the chained dragons or something similarly precipitous, thus getting Edgewalker's attention. What he is moving on to attempt is even more audacious, killing the Crippled God is obvious and so I think it's something else - in any case, awesome scene

[Silencer]

Epic scene is epic.

This is the kind of thing that made me set my title to "Patron God of Assassins".

[MTS]

Wow, simply wow. It's a credit to his writing that with one paragraph (the opening scene no less I think?), he can leave so many questions.

Like Grief, I don't think Edgewalker and Cotillion will come to blows. Firstly, Edgewalker believes that what Cotillion (and by extension we can reasonably assume Shadowthrone) is proposing is impossible, so Edgewalker has no reason to stop him (in his mind, anyway). Secondly, Edgewalker has acted as a witness before, and helped 'mitigate' with Rake, Hood and Shadowthrone in Toll The Hounds. I think he will be fulfilling a similar role this time as well.

As for the 'we have done this before' comment, Cotillion says the exact same thing to himself in Bonehunters, right before his talk with Edgewalker.

'Things were not well. A little stretched, are you, Ammanas? I am not surprised. Cotillion could
sympathize, and almost did. Momentarily, before reminding himself that Ammanas had invited most of the
risks upon himself. And, by extension, upon me as well.
The paths ahead were narrow, twisted and treacherous. Requiring utmost caution with every measured
step.
So be it. After all, we have done this before. And succeeded. Of course, far more was at stake this
time. Too much, perhaps.'

One presumes this has to do with their adventures in the Azath, of which we know little. The placing of the phrase in the excerpt then means Edgewalker was involved in their ascension in some way, which explains why he didn't try and stop them like he did like all the others. We simply don't know enough about what they did in the Azath to make any guesses about their plans though.

However, in the chat with the three dragons, Cotillion stops his questioning when Ampelas says ‘A sundered realm is the weakest realm of all! Why do you think the Crippled God is working through it?’ Maybe it's just me, but I see a connection between the Crippled God working through Emurlahn to infect the other warrens, and Shadowthrone working through Emurlahn and feeling 'stretched'.

As for what Cotillion might do, I don't think it's interfere with the release of the OD. That's already well underway, and I highly doubt either of them could prevent it happening anyway. Nor do I think this has to do with the three dragons. They'll feature most likely, but I don't think they're Cotillion's 'target', for lack of a better word. I'm going to look up the references to Cotillion's mission in the earlier books, I think there was something about going somewhere where people can't follow or something.

[Ulrik]

Abyss, on 21 December 2009 - 08:52 PM, said:

"Tell me," he resumed, "what do you think you're seeing here? Desperation? Panic? A failing of will, some inevitable decline crumbling to incompetence? Do you believe in failure, Edgewalker?" 

Panic? So this could be something unexpected... probably related to DoD events (Cap Obvious strikes again!)

Abyss, on 21 December 2009 - 08:52 PM, said:

"Even should you succeed, Cotillion. Beyond all expectation, beyond, even, all desire. They will still speak of your failure."

Who? They as "humanity"? Or exact group?
Also why victory would be seen as failure? Killing Ammanas (I said that months before!) comes to my mind but... so early? Ooooh, but killing D´rek and destroying all poisoned warrens... thats something other.

Abyss, on 21 December 2009 - 08:52 PM, said:

"They will not believe you."
"I do not care, Edgewalker. This is what it is."

But my theory is ruined... why shouldnt they believe it? Maybe his reasons?

Eh, just shooting from hips, but one thing is clear. Its damned sexy spoiler, theme of heroism resonates it... and I know at 99% we´ll lose Cotillion, damn!

[HoosierDaddy]

Joyous rambligs on a completely out of context situation! I believe this is the key statement:

Quote

“Tell me,” he resumed, “what do you think you’re seeing here? Desperation? Panic? A failing of will, some inevitable decline crumbling to incompetence? Do you believe in failure, Edgewalker?”

It actually appears to me to simply be what we've always figured ST and Cot's as doing, scheming EVERYONE. That sort of manipulation would require a level of deceit, subtlety, and chaos that could easily look like panic at the final stages. In a no win situation, such as the The Crippled God scenario seems to be for most Gods, a draw might be the best that can be hoped for, perhaps. Thus, now victory but also no defeat.

Then again, who flipping knows. I thought about the dragons first too, and said, hey, free them to go have at the Otataral Dragon.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 22 December 2009 - 07:25 AM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Aptorian, on 21 December 2009 - 09:57 PM, said:

I think he's going to something radical. Like interfering in the release of the OD, or maybe go kill Brood and take the hammer. I think it's going to be something drastic and damaging.

This is a side not, but I think there is perhaps going to happen a shift in the relationship between Cots and ST. It's not implied in the text, but I've gotten the impression that Cots and ST are now playing two different games.

Pretty much what I thought. From the last bit, it sounded like he's heading into something pretty nasty. But, in true Cotillion style, it seems as though he has something up his sleeve.

EDIT: Mappo, you said Edgewalker may have played a part in ST and Cot's ascension. But in NoK,

Spoiler

don't they meet him after they enter the Deadhouse and the Shadow Realm?

Or perhaps my mind is fuzzy...

And another question-what are they talking about when Edgewalker asks, "Arrogance?" and Cot replies, "Competence"?

This post has been edited by Ain't_It_Just_: 22 December 2009 - 10:10 AM

[MTS]

It's obviously regarding other people's attitudes. Edgewalker takes his confidence and disregard for others as arrogance, whereas Cotillion deems it a natural result born of competence.

[Grief]

Ah, see I think the two times he says "they" refer to different things.

"They will still speak of your failure.”

Seems to speak more of a general judgement. As in "history will still speak of your failure", not a specific group.

“They will not believe you.”

Whereas this seems more to me to refer to a specific group, a group involved with whatever cotillion is doing. More like the dragons not believing he can deliver what he is going to promise them. Or not believing he is competent of killing them if they turn on them.

[Abyss]

Notice he's carrying 'normal' daggers, rather than shadowstuff? I wonder if that's significant...

It certainly seems as tho' Cots is on the brink of acting 'directly', which is something gods generally hesitate to do altho he has done more than once.

The "Almost time, Edgewalker." line is reminiscent of Hedge and Emroth as they entered the Refugium in RG... Hedge being forced to act to stop her and Emroth pushing ahead as if daring him to.

Edgy only first came into contact with Cots and ST when they ascended. NoK seems pretty clear that he serves in a guardian role, possibly because he once tried to conquer Shadow and failed. Curiously, we've never seen Edgy act directly, only through proxies (Temper in NoK) and agents (Telorast and Curdle - RG/DoD).

- Abyss, wants MORE.

[Tapper]

Cots is going to act and intervene directly - which is what gods usually fail to do. He's probably going to kick off a convergence all by himself and manipulate everyone into trying to stop him, thereby achieving what he wanted in the first place. My bet is it has to do with SD, maybe the resurrection of Tiam - it was Cotillion after all who sent QB onto his quest that 'incidentally' led them to the gate of SD from the private realm of Shadow.

As for the 'desperation' and the 'competence' thing - I thought it was a direct reference to humanity's capability to kick gods in the teeth when they truely try, or even manipulate them (QB, Kruppe, Karsa, Appsalar) - and ST and Dancer were amongst the best of them.

[flea]

Didn't SE tell us that the last volume would be like the last 200 pages of TtH? Seems like he's living up to his promise. I almost feel like I'm experiencing one of those nasty side effects from viagra--four hours stretching into a year.

[Salk Elan]

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but the knives... they are Kalam's knives, right? – After all Apsalar gave them to ST after finishing off Pearl. And it fits for me from the description of the blades… the 'weathered' edges and all… and the way he seems to examine them.

If I'm right it means, they are not 'normal' daggers, in the strict sense… but would maybe enable Cots to do things he even could not do with his mighty rope? (Cutting the chains of the CG for example?)