Malazan Empire: High Mages and High Priests - Malazan Empire

Another old one revived...

Ouki


Fafner
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are high priests stronger than a high mage? because most of the high mages are a priest


Asmodeus de Yakshas
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I'd imagine that they are about equal in strenght, but get their strength from different sources.


Fafner
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But al the mage of the shadow warren must be a priest when we look how Shadowthrone react when someone enter his warren and all mages can use there warrens to travel so if the enter shadow warren they must be a priest else they will be hunt down by the shadow dogs ( look at hairlock and quick ben when they used it)


LooseCannon
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Well that is for the shadow warren which was recently reactivated by Shadowthrone so he probably has different rules when it comes to his warren. But it appears that for other warrens, for instance Hood's own or Rashan (the warren of Darkness) you can access it and not have to serve the god. I think what makes a High Priest a High Priest is the fact that they are TOTALLY devoted to one warren and have also given vows to their respective vow. Mages on the other hand do not swear oaths to any gods yet use their warrens anyway. You learn much more about all this in MoI.
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My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.


Fafner
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Thanks


LooseCannon
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No problem. Since Calot and/or Anomander Rake have yet to do this I guess I shall... welcome to the board
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My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.


Fafner
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someting else can a warren be used against his own idea lets say can the warren of life ( used by healers ) by used to kill someone or hurt him. same can be said of the warren of death can it be used for healing. ( darknes for created light and light to created darknes)


falco
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i don't think that idea can blankly applied, beacuse some warrens eg. Shadow have no opposing warren...

I killed the whole world, and you can to, if you try hard.
-Lews Therin Telamon


LooseCannon
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I believe Shadowthrone heals someone in DG, correct? And doesn't Cotillion heal that boy of Apt's as well? Maybe it is just Cotillion... hard to remember. But it seems they have their methods. They grew back Apsalar's father's arm for Hood's sake
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My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.


Fafner
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we don't know the side effect of healing by a other warren the boy can now see things is that of the shadow warren or someting else we don't know yet.


JamesThornhill
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I thought it was a property of the eye that allowed him to see the shapes in Meanas, not that shadow had been used to heal him.


Fafner
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but my point is how did the eye is become so is it on the wish of the demon or a side effect


LooseCannon
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I think your question about how the eye can see things that even Cotillion cannot is answered, sort of, in MoI. Therefore I will not spoil you with the answer
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My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.


Kilor
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Mages cannot usually enter warrens belonging to Gods-Quick Ben can and as GotM shows an ex-priest of Shadow himself. If someone elses opens the warren they can jump through but they can't manipulate it normally by themselves. This is what my impression was anyway. Also Shadowthrone healing the boy- he is an ascendant and is on his home turf, his power is probably exponentially greater than a mere priest.


LooseCannon
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Also Shadowthrone was a mage of considerable power before ascending anyway so who knows what other powers he possesses besides Shadow. Something else I've been thinking about and can't quite understand is how travelling warrens works. Topper can travel through the Imperial Warren and Quick Ben can travel through his warrens yet he can also draw on their power as well in the form of spells. Does this mean Topper or another Claw could draw on the power from the Imperial Warren? Maybe it is a different kind of warren that can only be used for travel...
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My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.


spiralx
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Yeah, the way that warrens are both places and sources of power is very interesting...

I'd guess that being able to access the Warren implies a level of being able to control the power you can get from it. However it may very well be that it takes a lot of research and experimentation before the power can be controlled in a more subtle manner - hence the Imperial Warren only being used as a means of transport right now, while the more common warrens can be used for "magic".


JamesThornhill
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How about the Adjuctant - however you spell it in GOTM that can access the imperial warren but makes it quite clear that everything to do with magic is beyond her as she has been coated in Otaral and carries an Otaral blade. The warrens are accessable not just to mages and priests but also to people they gift entry foci to, like Kalam.

Also to an earlier point that warrens that house accendants can only be freely accessed by priests not mages, id say no. In DH the warren that the heroes get stuck in and have to escape from was Meanas I thought, which is the warren of Shadowthrone, he might not have taken an active interest in them but that was because they were being guided by a mage of Meanas.


Asmodeus de Yakshas
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I'd say that the difference between being a priest and being a mage is freedom. If you are a mage, then you are free to study and use several different Warrens (even though you may only have real talent for one or two). As a priest, you pledge your life and soul to a god, and can only use his/her Warren. Of course, at the same time you get protection from aforementioned god, which can be a nice thing. See in the beginning of Deadhouse Gates how no one in the mob dares even touch Heboric, even though he is just a fallen priest and should have lost his god's protection.


LooseCannon
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Yes we are also told that once Heboric died that his spirit would have been used by Fener to crush the Malazan Empire. That implies that you don't want to f*ck with a High Priest. I also believe that these High Priests lack a certain freedom not only in what warrens they use but also that they most follow their god's plans and do what is required of them. It seems that Pust in DG was doing the work of his gods, although even Shadowthrone didn't seem to trust him fully, but I assume that is just an extraordinary case.
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My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.


JamesThornhill
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Additional point:

The lovely doll from GOTM who does a deal with Q Ben, forget his name, is only a standard mage. Then he starts exploring different warrens, pissing Shadowthrone off but he also absorbs power from the Warren of Chaos. Meaning that being in certain warrens grants you powers.

***SPOILER*** removed by admin

Conclusion: Yeah I agree that priests get respect from having an ascendant watch their back, also from having a network of other allied priests. In return they give up their freedom. Mages can travel warrens at will but might run into objections from certain residents, however traveling warrens can mean that you can absorb power from certain warrens - The only confirmed warren this works for being chaos. Post if you can think of other warrens this works for.


Kilor
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***Slight MoI Spoilers***


People like Gruntle and the destriant(s) of the Grey Shields suggest that power can be granted directly from a God. A non-priest would have to earn it, priests are given power. The boundaries are a bit blurred though; is Brood a mage or a Priestof Burn?


Asmodeus de Yakshas
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Can't he be like both? i dn't remember, which Warren is Burn's? Can't he be a mage of High Denul and a priest of Burn at the same time?


LooseCannon
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JamesThornhill
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Was interested in this topic so I thought I'd put in some info and see how the discussion goes. Some things I have attributed solely to one, some solely to others, but listed only things we know both have to both.

Mages:
1) Natural users of warrens. A mage becomes one when a warren gate is attracted to a new user and opens its power to them. (GOTM)

2) Known to age much slower than normal members of their race. (GOTM, ages of Tattersail and her lover are quoted)

3) Is a route to ascendancy this power is yours and as you get stronger with it your chance of ascending goes up. (DG comments of Kulp)

4) With mastery able to access a higher form of the warren, this higher form has only vaguely been alluded to but appears to be approaching ascendant power levels, and thus able to counter ascendants with a chance of succeeding. (GOTM, discussion between Tattersail and Tayschrenn about why Tattersail didn't die fighting Hound of Shadow)

5) A warren can gift you with the ability at divination, whether through the Deck, through tea leaves, shoulder bones or through dreams, you can read the future. In GOTM it appears that your warren gifts you the power to predict sometimes without prompting, however the knowledge comes from a source, in GOTM this appears to be ascendants.

Priests:
1) Have their Gods warren tattoed on them. Allows them to access this warren and its power. Feners tattoes go on right hand and the breast over the heart. (DG comments of Felisin)

2) Give their souls to their gods (stated in DG in a discussion by Heboric).

3) Unable to ascend through priesthood alone this is your gods power not yours. (DG comments of Kulp)

Both:
1) Increase in abilities through practising drawing on a warrens power. That by entering a new warren you might be able to figure out how to draw on its power (survive the process) and develop skill with that warren. (GOTM & MOI)

2) Can be soletaken. It appears that many soletaken often travel trough warrens which they but this is not an aspect of their abilities as priest or mage. Many soletaken in DG were travelling through Tellan warren. Perhaps this link between Tellan and Soletaken is natural and all soletaken can travel through Tellan warren.


Calot
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Did Pust have tattoos?
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"Shake your fist all you want but dead is dead"
Well, what can I say?
The Lord of one-liners.


agares
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Thought on Eye.
Apt is a demon from another realm and as such can see things differently, so to can the Hounds of Shadow. When Cotillion heals the Malazan boy, Apt suggegts that he be given the same eye as an Aptorian. Cotillion obliges. It is the property of the eye itself that enables the special sight. Cotillion would have just copied Apt's eye without regard, unknowingly giving the boy heigtened (demon) senses.


Calot
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Hmm, the Hounds also see the walls
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"Shake your fist all you want but dead is dead"
Well, what can I say?
The Lord of one-liners.

echo
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re: Mage/Priest
1) I tend to think that mages & priests both use the power of warrens, but the path way is (at times) different.

NB: mages and priests are NOT exclusive. eg QB was part of a cabal of mages, but was a priest of shadows.

2) I agree with James.
Priests
- devote their life to their god,
- in return the god channels the power of the warren to the priest
- may not have the warren tattoed on them
(Fener likes tats, other gods may not)
Mages
- use the power of the warren directly, without divine intercession
- use magical techiques (eg ritual, whatever) which require talent and/or training
- must come to some sort of accomodation with the warren (and or the ruler of the warren),
- but do not need to devote their life to the wishes of a god.
- Of course a mage would have difficulty using a warren with attributes immical to his/her own nature (or the use of a warren, eg Hood, would change the nature of the practicioner).

3) I think that mages can use warrens which belong to gods. Though its a lot safer if you are one of their priests. Shadowthrone will try to kill you if he catches you using Menaes without permission (which makes it hard to learn), but other gods may not be so difficult.

Note that if you have enough skill in warren, you can have power over the god/ruler, eg the Tiste Andii cursed mother dark. Possibily a mage with enough power in a warren could overthrow a god. Perhaps Shadowthrone is particularly sensitive as he has not been in power for long.


Calot
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As a side issue, I'd like to mention Barghast tattooing, which seemed pretty powerful
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"Shake your fist all you want but dead is dead"
Well, what can I say?
The Lord of one-liners.


Megatron
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Yeah, I like the Bhargast tattooing too. I like the fact that you can still have divine/magical protection and not be a priest/mage yourself. I'm also trying to think if there are any other priests who have tattoos other than Fener?


JamesThornhill
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I think the point of what was said in DG is that even priests of fener have subtle tattoing, only on hand and heart - it is only during the ceremony of punishment that the tattoos cover the entire body. While I don't know that all priests have the tattoos it makes sense that that is why they can open warrens, and if the other priesthoods have tattoos then they would also be on hand and heart or equally subtle places, so as we can't say for sure that priests of other gods don't until another book denies it by having every inch of a priest examined and no tattoo found.


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"Chaos is the order we don't understand"