[Andromander]

I didnt understand what was the deal with those black clouds and cold, why this storm was traveling the wasteland and killing random armies on the way? Ok, Draconus escaped the Dragnipur, but why did he appear just after the battle and why everyone died from this terrible cold? Was it some kind of sacrifice? Display of power?
How could he plan this if he was trapped in Dragnipur? He didnt? Who did?

Ok, the storm could be linked with Nah'rruk , but just in the very end it was the opening of a their warren, but till then?

Please share your thoughts and excuse me for the language, its late and I am tired.

[Abyss]

Welcome, Andro'.

Off the top of my thinkymeatz, two running theories on this... neither has anything to do with the Nah'ruk....

1) the cold was the manifestation of a gate opening between the Dragnipur warren and the world, and Draconus popped into that specific place because of either sheer coincidence (unlikely) or because the dueling armies triggered a convergence effect (power draws power) - an blood-fueled Elder God is going to be drawn to a place of massive bloodshed in progress..

2) Drac deliberately opened the gate there and then to suck up all those warrior souls and use them to form his new sword.


I tend to lean towards the first.


- Abyss, notes that the second is way more sinister tho'.

[Ulrik]

Aaaaand my explanation...

IMHO (really, just stupid theory) played great role "continental convergence". New warrens are unleashed. Elder gods gathering. Deck of Dragons changes. Hoods realm fully manifests. Unbound Imass are raging. Nahruk flow thru own rip in realm. At battlefield dies tens of thousands. And Draconus, master  badass, leaves Dragnipur. Force that wasnt in the realm few thousand years. With Anomanders arrival everyone got depressed, Draconus carved from cursed sword, wielding his powerful (probably) sword... and arrives in the mess of these powers. It has to have side effects.




And Akrynnai with Barghast was simply unlucky that got full side effect. IMO its parallel to massacre of BH. They also just stood in path of Nahruk...

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 14 December 2009 - 11:03 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

My opinion is simply that Draconus is the God of Elder Night. The weapon at his side exudes cold. He has brought himself into Wu fully, as I believe Hood did (when he was killed), and thus the cold was simply the nature of his realm getting out through the gate.

[Clip]

I see it as simply the result of Draconus arriving on the world. As in, this is what Draconus is, so far we have only seen him within the Sword. Draconus is probably simply so powerful, that unless he keeps himself under caps that cold and etc will be everywhere where he goes, when he arrives he cannot keep all that under control, esp. with such a traumatic arrival.

Personally, I think that if Dracnus was serious, if it wasn't his intention to let Rake will him within Dragnipur, Draconus could waste Rake. Obviously a moot point now, but, meh

[Urizen]

Abyss, on 14 December 2009 - 09:23 PM, said:

Welcome, Andro'.

Off the top of my thinkymeatz, two running theories on this... neither has anything to do with the Nah'ruk....

1) the cold was the manifestation of a gate opening between the Dragnipur warren and the world, and Draconus popped into that specific place because of either sheer coincidence (unlikely) or because the dueling armies triggered a convergence effect (power draws power) - an blood-fueled Elder God is going to be drawn to a place of massive bloodshed in progress..

2) Drac deliberately opened the gate there and then to suck up all those warrior souls and use them to form his new sword.


I tend to lean towards the first.


- Abyss, notes that the second is way more sinister tho'.

I tend to blame the Errant for Draconus appearing smack in the middle of the battle. Killy and Knuckles' conversation a short time after Draconus arrival seem to imply that the Errant summoned Draconus.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

What I want to know, is what killed those Barghast at the beginning. You know, when Maral Eb finds that lone survivor. What happened to the rest of them.

[Illuyankas]

Oh, that was the Shorttails.

[lfex]

Black clouds apparently were pursuing Barghast for some time - there was group found by Maral Eb and after that Irkullas' daughter and Barghast fighting with her troops. I don't see how it could be the short-tails in the first two cases and suddenly Draconus in the third (unless he was using Nah'ruk manifestation of power to cross over). The whole thing doesn't make much sense to me (or we lack some crucial piece of information).

[blackzoid]

No,
It WAS the short-tails for most of the cases of "killer clouds". Its only at the last case, that it was the arrival of Draconus, not the short-tails thats different.

Don't mix up the two (decidely similar I guess) events. The Short-tails were running around killing the Barghast at the start of the book. Not because they hated the Barghast but because they were looking for the Long-Tails and wanted no survivors of any other races in the area either.

The remnants of the Barghast were killed by another cloud like appearance at the end, this time by Draconus.
And I don't think it was intentional on Draconus's part, he manifested in the wastelands, a land that he probably thought was empty, but due to bad timing, he arrived smack-bang in the middle of a battle. I don't think he was looking for a blood-sacrifice. That's something the "old" Draconus would have done.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 15 December 2009 - 12:00 PM

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

Its a different sort of clouding, I think. Did this in another thread with sky-mentions (ugh) for tracking the moon.

When Draconus is building up to emerge on Wu, the sky is darkening, its black, like Night and everything is cold. I really think as well, as far as gods go, the Wastelands are supposed to be empty, he's just got out of Dragnipur, you'd think it would be a safe bet to land there, without tripping over two armies, tch.

The Nah'ruk clouds are more... Violent, stormy, and boiling, or that was the impression I got. Violence as opposed to "cold menacing blackness".

[ritchiediaz]

Urizen said:

I tend to blame the Errant for Draconus appearing smack in the middle of the battle. Killy and Knuckles' conversation a short time after Draconus arrival seem to imply that the Errant summoned Draconus.

I don't think this can be underestimated as a contributing factor.

I'll dig up the quote later, but the conversation between Draconus and Ublaala implied to me that Draconus had no control over the manner of his entrance, for whatever reason - Power Draws Power, Errant's Call... a variety of contributing factors IMO.

One of the things I'd like clarified is why did Draconus become corporeal on Wu as a result of the breaking of Dragnipur? Nightchill appeared to CHOSE to walk on Wu and be vulnerable? It's an interesting question - with all the importance on gods being vulnerable in the mortal realm, it hasn't seemed to affect Mael much.

[Ulrik]

ritchiediaz, on 15 December 2009 - 01:13 PM, said:

Urizen said:

I tend to blame the Errant for Draconus appearing smack in the middle of the battle. Killy and Knuckles' conversation a short time after Draconus arrival seem to imply that the Errant summoned Draconus.

I don't think this can be underestimated as a contributing factor.

I'll dig up the quote later, but the conversation between Draconus and Ublaala implied to me that Draconus had no control over the manner of his entrance, for whatever reason - Power Draws Power, Errant's Call... a variety of contributing factors IMO.

One of the things I'd like clarified is why did Draconus become corporeal on Wu as a result of the breaking of Dragnipur? Nightchill appeared to CHOSE to walk on Wu and be vulnerable? It's an interesting question - with all the importance on gods being vulnerable in the mortal realm, it hasn't seemed to affect Mael much.

IMO it gives them more space for interventon...and especially fun. Bugg spoke about it in MT that his service under Tehol gave him pleasure. Errant was able to push and pull better from postion behind the throne (and lost an eye...). And Nightchill, well, she is IMO more "human", requires(ed) company... society... something different than animalistic Fener.

[Clip]

When talking of Nightchill, 'walking into the world' is basically another way of saying becoming mortal. All the Elder Gods have walked upon the surface of Wu, however that doesn't make them mortal. They may walk the surface, but they are still apart.

[ritchiediaz]

Clip, on 15 December 2009 - 07:14 PM, said:

When talking of Nightchill, 'walking into the world' is basically another way of saying becoming mortal. All the Elder Gods have walked upon the surface of Wu, however that doesn't make them mortal. They may walk the surface, but they are still apart.

That's what I was getting at! Is Draconus apart, or not? Is he vulnerable like Nightchil & Fener?

[Tehol]

ritchiediaz, on 15 December 2009 - 09:19 PM, said:

Clip, on 15 December 2009 - 07:14 PM, said:

When talking of Nightchill, 'walking into the world' is basically another way of saying becoming mortal. All the Elder Gods have walked upon the surface of Wu, however that doesn't make them mortal. They may walk the surface, but they are still apart.

That's what I was getting at! Is Draconus apart, or not? Is he vulnerable like Nightchil & Fener?

I guess you could think of 'vulnerability' in this way: When physically manifest in a realm, a being is as vulnerable to the physical manifestations of that realm as any other animate or inanimate thing. When a being is not physically manifest in a realm, they are not vulnerable to any physical manifestations there. So 'vulnerable' is a relative term - i.e. Draconus is 'vulnerable' to 'stuff' but would still be more powerful than just about anything that could possibly cross his path, ergo, he is still relatively 'invulnerable'.

I would need to produce a quote, but I do remember reading on several occasions that Erikson says something to the effect of: When 'ascendants' or 'gods' take on physical manifestations they are able to achieve more direct influence on the world, but in doing so, attract the ire and convergence of other powers who are contesting that influence. When 'ascendants' and 'gods' don't take physical form, their influence is more limited, usually to acting through their followers/worshipers or through indirect means. This is probably the reason why Shadowthrone and Cotillion are so powerful at the moment, in that they seem to play the game of limited influence to great effect - i.e. achieve a lot whilst remaining relatively 'invulnerable' - where as many of the other powers are choosing direct action and direct influence, therefore becoming relatively vulnerable, and therefore often getting seriously owned, or at least a bit bruised.

This is just my take on the matter.

This post has been edited by Tehol: 18 December 2009 - 08:57 AM

[Tehol]

And personally I think Draconus has chosen to become physically manifest, that he was compelled to come to the Wastelands by the Errant, but that he chose the place and time of his arrival, much as did Olar Ethil and Mael. I think that the blood of 10,000 or so Barghast and Akrynai is to convenient to have been 'accidentally' spilled when we are speaking of the Elder Gods, whose power was drawn from blood. Therefore, it is my thinking that the blood was spilled deliberatly, for a ritual of some sort, and I believe that the ritual was the forging of the sword, Darkness. Let's not forget that the final, climactic moment of the gathering cold and darkness is:

DoD p.638 Trade Paperback said:

'A final report, loud as the snapping of a dragon's spine, and then sudden silence.
A sword, bleeding darkness, dripping cold.'

I am fully convinced that the death of the armies was all about the sword, Darkness, and not about Draconus's arrival in particular. But... just imo and others think differently on all of this.

[waylander001]

Tehol definitely hits the nail on the head with his interpretation of draconus' entrance into the world - for me anyway.

As for the clouds ripping up the Barghast during the books - most definitely it was the Na'Ruhk. We get a hint of the state of the battlefields when Tool takes his 100 Senan to show them one of the scenes of slaugher - and if you remember the description then it talks of the ground being ripped up in some pieces and bodies being blown to pieces. This definitely describes the scenes and affects of the Short Tails weapons from the later battle with the Bonehunters. the lightning striking the ground and causing dirt to be thrown into the air - bodies blowing apart (Keneb) - and the massive crater from the lighning rod that pummelled Quick Ben.

This post has been edited by waylander001: 18 December 2009 - 05:31 PM

[Abyss]

Ain, on 15 December 2009 - 09:55 AM, said:

What I want to know, is what killed those Barghast at the beginning. You know, when Maral Eb finds that lone survivor. What happened to the rest of them.

Illuyankas, on 15 December 2009 - 10:08 AM, said:

Oh, that was the Shorttails.

Am i the only one who thought it was Gu'rull flapping around killing people?

The short-tails chase Kalyth and co (leading to the Jaghut rescue), and i think it was suggested that they wiped out the Rooted Iccy found (or were about to), but otherwise i didn't think they were active until their army comes through the rift at the end.

- Abyss, could be wrong.

[HoosierDaddy]

No, the scene where the Akrynaii (including the leader's daughter, I believe) take on some Barghast is nearly straight on reminiscent of the depictions of the Nah'ruk fortresses and their attacks later on. In particular, the "earthquake" part. No Nah'ruk on the ground, there, I believe. Just floating fortresses looking for the Che'maile.