[Terez]

 cerveza_fiesta, on 14 December 2009 - 05:20 PM, said:

just trying to figure out the reason why after mat arrives in Salidar, nynaeve keeps hiding from him and standing behind elayne glaring at him any time he's talking to them. Its not just typical nynaeve bitchiness...its like something else is going on.

Nynaeve doesn't bang mat in future books does she?

I thought he was meant for daughter of the moons (or whatever that was).

It all stems from the meeting they had in Egwene's study. After Mat left, Egwene reprimanded Nynaeve:

Quote

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Possibilities

"How can Rand have such a low, insufferable lout for a friend?" Elayne asked no one in particular before the door was well closed behind him.

"His language has certainly slipped downhill," Nynaeve grumbled darkly, tossing her head so her braid swung over her shoulder. Egwene thought she might be afraid she would pull it out by the roots if she did not put it out of reach.

"I should have let him do as he wanted, Nynaeve. You have to remember you're Aes Sedai now. You can't go around kicking people, or boxing their ears, or thumping them with sticks." Nynaeve stared at her, mouth working, face growing redder and redder. Elayne began assiduously studying the carpet.

With a sigh, Egwene folded the striped stole and laid it on the table to one side. That was her way of making sure Elayne and Nynaeve remembered they were alone; sometimes the stole made them start talking to the Amyrlin Seat instead of Egwene al'Vere. As usual, it worked. Nynaeve took a very deep breath.

...

Despite her intentions, the a'dam bracelet lay in Egwene's pouch now. She would have given it to Nynaeve now – and glad to be rid of it – but handing the thing back and forth in front of others would occasion comment sooner or later.

Instead, she said, "Nynaeve, it might be best for you to avoid Mat until his temper cools." She was not sure that Mat would really carry out his threat, but if anyone could goad him to it, Nynaeve could, and there would be no convincing her after that. "Or at least make sure you only talk to him with a great many people around. Perhaps a few Warders."

Nynaeve opened her mouth; then after a moment closed it again; her cheeks paled a little and she swallowed. "Yes. Yes, I think that might be best, Mother."

So, after that we see (from Mat's point of view) Nynaeve avoiding him.

Wow, a new sub-forum for WoT and I missed it!

[Terez]

I suppose that was the lazy quote, and I could give what happened before that too (was in a hurry earlier):

Quote

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 38 - A Sudden Chill

At the rear of the room, Nynaeve pushed open a door that had seen better days. Everything in the place seemed to have seen better days. Mat followed her in – and stopped dead. There was Elayne, pretty as anything with that golden hair, but playing at the grand lady with every inch of her, in green silk with a high lace neck, and one of those condescending smiles, and raised eyebrows. And there was Egwene, seated behind a table, a questioning smile on her face. And a seven-striped stole over her pale yellow dress. Taking a quick peek outside, he shoved the door to before any of the Aes Sedai could see in.

"Maybe you think this is funny," he growled, crossing the bit of carpet as fast as he could step, "but they'll have your hide if they find out. They'll never bloody let you go, any of you, if they – " Snatching the stole from Egwene's neck, he hauled her hurriedly out of the chair – and the silver foxhead went dead cold against his chest.

Giving Egwene a small shove away from the table, he glared at them. Egwene only looked puzzled, but Nynaeve's mouth was hanging open again, and Elayne's big blue eyes looked ready to pop out onto the floor. One of them had tried to use the Power on him. The only good thing that had come out of his trip into that ter'angreal was the foxhead medallion. He supposed it had to be a ter'angreal too, but he was grateful for it just the same. So long as it touched his skin, the One Power could not reach him. Not saidar, anyway; he had more proof of that than he cared for. It did go cold when someone tried, though.

Tossing the stole and his hat onto the table, he sat down, then hiked up from the seat to pull out some cushions and throw them on the floor. He rested a boot on the edge of the table and regarded the fool women. "You'll need those cushions if this so-called Amyrlin finds out about this little joke of yours."

"Mat," Egwene began in a firm voice, but he cut her off.

"No! If you wanted to talk, you should have talked instead of lashing out with your bloody Power. Now you can listen."

"How did you... ?" Elayne said wonderingly. "The flows just... vanished."

At almost the same instant, Nynaeve said in a threatening tone, "Mat Cauthon, you are making the biggest – "

"I said listen!" He poked a finger at Elayne. "You, I'm taking back to Caemlyn, if I can keep Aviendha from killing you. If you don't want that pretty throat slit, you stay close to me and do what I say, no questions!" The finger shifted to Egwene. "Rand says he'll send you back to the Wise Ones whenever you want, and if what I've seen so far is any indication what you get up to, my advice is to take him up on it now! It seems you know how to Travel" – Egwene gave a small start – "so you can make a gateway to Caemlyn for the Band. I don't want any argument, Egwene! And you, Nynaeve! I ought to leave you here, but if you want to come, you can. Only, I'm warning you. You yank that braid at me just once, and I swear I'll warm your bottom!" They were staring at him as if he had sprouted horns like a Trolloc, but at least they were keeping their mouths shut. Maybe he had managed to get a little sense into their heads. Not that they would ever thank him for saving their hides. Oh, no; not them. As usual, they would say they would have worked everything out for themselves in just a little while longer. If a woman told you you were interfering when you pulled her out of a dungeon, what would she not say?

He drew a deep breath. "Now. When the poor blind fool they've chosen out for their Amyrlin gets here, I will do the talking. She can't be very bright, or they'd never have been able to shove her into the job. Amyrlin Seat for a bloody village in the middle of bloody nowhere. You keep your mouths shut and curtsy for all you're worth, and I'll pull your bacon off the coals again." They just stared. Good. "I know all about her army, but I have one too. If she's crazy enough to think she can take the Tower away from Elaida... well, she probably won't risk any losses just to hold on to you three. You make that gateway, Egwene, and I will have you in Caemlyn tomorrow, the next day latest, and these madwomen can run off and get themselves killed by Elaida. Maybe you'll have some company. They cannot all be mad. Rand's willing to offer sanctuary. A curtsy, a quick oath of fealty, and he'll keep Elaida from putting their heads on pikes in Tar Valon. They can't ask better than that. Well? Anything to say?" They did not even blink as far as he could see. "A simple 'Thank you, Mat' would do." Not a word. Not a blink.

And then a novice comes in and addresses Egwene as Mother, chapter ends, and Egwene gets her chair back from Mat:

Quote

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 39 - Possibilities

Nynaeve had seen saidar fail around him, but she had dealt with recalcitrant men long before she learned to channel. With a muttered growl of "Warm, my bottom?" that Egwene did not think was intended to be heard, Nynaeve deftly hiked up her skirts and kicked Mat squarely in his, so hard that he staggered all the way to the wall before catching himself with a hand. Elayne burst into laughter, and suppressed it just as quickly, but she still quivered, and her eyes shone.

Egwene bit her lip to keep from laughing too. It really was comical. Mat turned his head slowly to stare at Nynaeve, all wide-eyed indignation and outrage. Then his brows lowered, and jerking his undone coat as if to straighten it, he began to stalk slowly toward her. Slowly because he was limping. Egwene covered her mouth. It really would not do to laugh.

Nynaeve drew herself up sternly, and then perhaps a few things occurred to her. She might be angry enough to channel, but saidar was apparently useless with him. Mat was tall for a Two Rivers man, considerably taller than she, considerably stronger, and there was a decidedly dangerous glint in his eye. She glanced at Egwene, and smoothed her dress, trying to maintain her stern face. Mat stalked nearer, face like thunder. Another hasty glance, worry beginning to show, was followed by a small step back.

"Mat," Egwene said in a level tone. He did not stop. "Mat, stop cutting the fool. You are in quite a predicament, but I should be able to get you out of it, if you listen to reason."

Finally he halted. With a glare and a warning shake of his finger at Nynaeve, he turned his back on her and planted his fists on the writing table. "I am in a predicament? Egwene, you've jumped out of a tree toward a bear pit, and you think everything is fine because you haven't landed yet!"

She smiled at him calmly. "Mat, not many here in Salidar think very well of Dragonsworn. Lord Bryne certainly doesn't, nor his soldiers. We have heard some very disturbing stories. And some sickening ones."

"Dragonsworn!" he yelped. "What do they have to do with me? I'm no bloody Dragonsworn!"

"Of course you are, Mat." She made it sound the most obvious thing in the world. Which it was, if you only thought. "You go where Rand sends you. What else are you but Dragonsworn? But if you listen to me, I can stop them from putting your head on a pike. Actually, I don't think Lord Bryne would use a pike – he always complains he doesn't have enough – but I am sure he would figure out something."

Egwene saved Nynaeve from Mat's certain wrath by threatening him. Also, the rest of the book follows pretty much the same pattern, on the trip to Ebou Dar, as they're trying to figure out his medallion and he won't let them study it. Everything is a burr under his coat - them channeling at him when he lays down to sleep at night, Elayne inspecting his troops, the Redarms (Vanin in particular) all falling in love with her, and let's not forget shitbombs from old ladies. All of this led to him choosing to stay at the Wandering Woman in Ebou Dar, rather than in the palace with the girls (one of those moments where the dice stopped in his head - important decision). This becomes particularly important in the next book.

[HoosierDaddy]

God, reading those scenes over again makes me realize why I skipped them on re-reads. Stop and reverse roles. How would women feel about men treating them like that in a fantasy series?

[Terez]

LOL. I think you might be taking it a little too seriously (yes, this is a WoT fangirl telling you this). All of RJ's main male characters have tendencies toward chivalry, and in Rand's case it gets downright ridiculous sometimes, but Mat's tirade before he realized that Egwene really was Amyrlin is an example of his own over-inflated sense of chivalry. All of this was tied up with the fact that Rand sent Mat to Salidar to grab Elayne so he could put her on the Lion Throne. From the girls' perspective, Mat just showed up in the middle of their business, in their territory, with an army of Dragonsworn, and now he's being belligerently ignorant and trying to tell them that they don't have a clue what they're doing, and even accuses Egwene of playing at being Amyrlin like a little girl with her dolls, and Nynaeve and Elayne of playing with her. Grown women!

Of course, they did try bullying him with the Power, but it's sort of hard to say they weren't justified at that point, at least from a situational perspective. The whole episode serves to highlight three things, though:

1. Mat's over-inflated sense of chivalry, and also his ability to just blow things off. He was ready to tear Nynaeve a new one for kicking him when Egwene distracted him, and after that he just forgot about it altogether, to the point of not having a clue why Nynaeve was acting strange and avoiding him.

2. Egwene's masterful manipulation skills. Some people love to hate her for that, but Rand wasn't really any better by sending Mat and the whole Band to Salidar to fetch Elayne. Anyway, she took advantage of the situation admirably, and of course it turns out that it was all a part of the Wheel's plan, since Mat needed to go to Ebou Dar to meet somebody, and it was beneficial for the Band as well.

3. Nynaeve's neuroticism. She's the only one of the main good guys besides Rand that has fully-fledged conversations with herself. Anyway, the braid-yanking thing is just a nervous tic she's developed, and it's something she has to break eventually, like her Power block, because Aes Sedai are supposed to be in control of themselves. When Mat threatened to warm her bottom if she yanked her braid at him, she took the threat seriously, and she found herself wanting to yank it because she was frustrated that she couldn't just use the Power on him if he tried to warm her bottom, but Mat's threat kept her from doing it, which frustrated her even more, in a vicious cycle until she had to vent her frustration somehow. So she kicked him. Then Egwene told her to avoid Mat so that she didn't have to go through the same thing again.

[HoosierDaddy]

They all get better towards the end, but at this point in the story they are fully ridiculous.

[Terez]

Indeed, and they are intended to be. lol...RJ's male-female relations are a parody, probably having something to do with the contrast between the Southern ideal chivalry that he was raised with and the cultural revolution during which he came of age. His wife is a strong woman, and on the liberal side as far as Southern Christian women go (she donated a great deal of money to set up a Planned Parenthood facility in Charleston, for example, in spite of a great deal of local conservative opposition). Southern ideals of chivalry are so strict that a good number of men raised in that ideal will put up with anything from women without resorting to anger or violence of any kind, and WoT often has extreme situations where women will take advantage of that security in much the same way as real world women will (particularly in the 'polite society' of the South, I think). It's all intended to be ridiculous and comical - hence Egwene having to fight a laugh not only when Nynaeve kicked Mat, but when Mat retaliated. Both were funny to her, but she managed to avoid a major conflict using distraction.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Is this a bad time to admit that I enjoy Jordan's relationships in the Wheel of Time? I think the interaction between his male and female characters is funny, in a charming rather than ridiculous way.

[Jusentantaka]

 Dolorous Menhir, on 20 December 2009 - 04:14 PM, said:

Is this a bad time to admit that I enjoy Jordan's relationships in the Wheel of Time? I think the interaction between his male and female characters is funny, in a charming rather than ridiculous way.

I always sort of enjoyed them that way too, though its been close to fifteen years since I read them. And there's that ever nagging part of the mind that says 'oh, those were fun' when I see the hardbacks on the shelf, but somehow I've held off from reading them again. Maybe I should though, since reading through this thread brought up all sorts of half-baked questions. hmph.


@H. Diddy:

Quote

How would women feel about men treating them like that in a fantasy series?

Personally, I think I'd feel really good about it, because maybe, just maybe, it would get the people who read genre fiction (and do not also read "real" fiction at the same time) to realize and think about how, in huge swaths of the world, women are currently treated far worse than that. Genre writing isn't shouldn't be just an import of modern morality (western morality if you'd prefer) into a 'fantastic' setting, it can be as much a means for serious commentary as any lit professor's beloved post-existentialism, trans-modernist book of the decade.

[HoosierDaddy]

I suppose I'm being woolheaded, again. I'm glad I've got you ladies here to keep my head on straight.

[cerveza_fiesta]

 Terez, on 19 December 2009 - 10:34 PM, said:

bunch of stuff she wrote that I gave rep for

Thanks for that. Makes more sense now.

I guess I was trying to read more into it or something. The M/F interactions get a little overly ridiculous at times in WoT to the point of being a bit distracting.

Def. looking forward to the next book now. Seems like the Ebo Dar story could be interesting.

Looks like I'm going to have to wait a bit for Jordan to stop writing about everybody's sweat though.

Anybody notice RJ's writing style changed a bit in this book? He started making gratuitous use of the -- blah blah blah -- punctuation to denote separate thoughts in a single sentence. Its like he all of a sudden learned how to use that and started throwing it in absolutely everwhere.

I guess it looks a bit more neat than (blah blah blah) putting stuff in brackets...but I found it got a bit overused. Overall his style and skill jumped a notch in this book IMO. Much better reading than the previous ones. Much more mature too.

[QuickTidal]

Yeah, it's funny. In the first few books Nynaeve annoyed the ever loving shit out of me, but she gets to be so badass by LOC that I can't help but love her...and you know she'd whip you with that braid in the sack and that would be hot...

Also, everybody in the casting of the movie always uses Kate Beckinsale as the best bet...and droool....that would make me...umm...yeah.

*Needs to disconnect from Nynaeves hotness..she's pretty fictional*

[End of Disc One]

I don't remember liking Nynaeve until A Crown of Swords at the earliest. And then Knife of Dreams...holy shit top tier character.

[QuickTidal]

 End of Disc One, on 06 November 2010 - 01:23 AM, said:

I don't remember liking Nynaeve until A Crown of Swords at the earliest. And then Knife of Dreams...holy shit top tier character.

Indeed. It's almost as if Jordan made her annoying on purpose so that when he made her cool she was SO cool.

It's kind of like Moiraine. She's kind of annoying for the first 4 books or so, and then in TFOH she is better and then goes out through the terangreal in such an unselfish blaze of glory I am like...dude.....she'd pretty awesome.

[Abyss]

Somewhere back in book 3 or 4 Nyneave takes out Moghedien, a frikkin Foresaken. It s a crowning moment of awesome and earns her so much leniency from me in terms of her various bits of annoyance through the next seven books. Up to then, only Moiraine and Rand have taken out Foresaken and Moiraine never in a face to face power v power duel the way Nyn does.

- Abyss, still to this day waits for the moment when Nyneave yanks out her own braid and uses it to club someone to death. sniffing all the while.

[Terez]

Just wait until TOM, when

Spoiler

all Nynaeve's hair gets burned off.

[QuickTidal]

Oh man, I am still working through the series for the first time and I am doing my best to get up to the new one...

[Defiance]

Read Path of Daggers yet? I really enjoyed the first 6 books and 7 was alright, but I just could not get into 8 for the life of me. Got 150 pages in, dropped it for a few months, picked it up again and started over, got 100 pages in, and put it down again. Just seemed like absolutely nothing was happening, and plotlines that had been dragged out for the last 2 or 3 books were still being played out (I remember there was some bowl thing that they'd been looking for...then Seanchan came to the city they were in or something...maybe not...barely remember anything.

Part of me really wants to start the series again, just so I can say I've read it. On the other hand, I don't want to read the first 7 books again only to find myself stopping out of boredom at 8 or 9.

[QuickTidal]

Okay, just read a chapter early on in A CROWN Of SWORDS right after Moghedien escapes (with some sort of male channeler help), and those two novices attempt to blackmail Egwene about Elayne and Nynaeve pretending to be Aes Sedai when they were novices and she tears a strip off them.

Wow...Egwene isn't annoying anymore. In fact, I kind of like her now. Whod-a-thunk-it. add her to the list with Nynaeve of characters I used to hate who I now really kinda dig. Well done Jordan.