[Salk Elan]

Maybe that's a silly question, but at first I understood Held to be a baby and it was perfectly acceptable… but as the snake continued, and with all Badalle's philosophising about Rutt's role as the 'head' of the snake, carrying Held to safety or better: to a place where the rules of their former life would apply again, Held became somehow more 'metaphorical' to me.

Besides, if I'm not completely mistaken, we never really 'see' (or 'hear') Held, only the procedure of wrapping it in layers of fabric for sun-protection, which kindled in my mind the vague idea of Held being a dead child, a symbol of the lives, all of these children have lost… and thus the name 'Held' – someone 'protected' (the only one protected) as a focus of all the virtues they once knew (innocence, happiness etc.) and were not going to surrender, however desperate their situation became.

So my simple question: Is Held a real person or not, and if: a living one or something different, since I cannot see how a baby could have survived all the hardships the snake went through, even protected.

Or am Imissing something crucial (which is absolutely possible)?

[Mezla PigDog]

Good post! I remember this niggling in the back of my mind all the way through the Snake parts of the book. I assumed we would get some clarification by the end. Maybe it is still to come but I think the baby was dead, at least by the end. It can't possibly have survived. I didn't think of it as much as a metaphor but more an example of how traumatised the kids were and how horrific the ordeal was.

[Cougar]

This is a great post Salk, we rarely get into the symbolism of Eriksons work, mainly cos the majority of the storylines are difficult enough to navigate on their own.

I'd be surprised if it's ever revealed to us whether Held lives or not. It does seem very unlikely that a baby could have survived in the conditions.

To me the fact that Rutt holds Held was to symbolise that he had assumed a paternal role, being forced to face the horror of the world at too young and age. If Held is dead, or is in fact merely a bundle then Mezla could be on the right track. I suppose one might also specualte on the name as being 'what must be held' not merely physically but to hold onto their old lives and to hope, as babies are often employed to symbolise hope and innocence.

Basically I've no idea, but it's very interesting. It would make a good question for Steve and I'm sure one he'd find more interesting than our usual banlities. Has Pat done his questions yet?

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I wondered about it, since the Forkrul Assail pursuing had a thought about how the boy holding the child specifically had to die. *will hunt down quote*

[Sinisdar Toste]

if i'm not mistaken the prologue mentions the "shadowed face" of held, which prompted some people to speculate that it was a tiste edur baby. thus it appears rutt was actually holding something. but alive or dead we don't know. there's never any mention of the baby crying or anything, and who's gonna breast feed it? badalle? she's a preteen and malnourished as all get out. funny that i never thought of this but it does seem likely that held was dead the whole time. good post salk

[King Lear]

I never considered that Held might be dead; it really makes a lot of sense! This is a really interest post Salk Elan
Part of Badalle's poem in the prologue that bothers me;

It's hard
Not to love Rutt
But Held doesn't
And no one loves Held
But Rutt

If Held is a symbol of the children's old lives and hope, then maybe it means that Rutt, by holding on to Held is the only one still holding on to hope for a return to the way things used to be. The other children love Rutt, but cannot love Held, because the have lost hope in the future, which is not surprising given what they live through. All they can hold on to is the possibility that Rutt knows where he is going. So in a way, he's carrying hope because the others can not.

I think that this made more sense in my head, but I can't figure out a better way of putting it:sad:

[Tarcanus]

My new pet theory since finishing DoD is that Held is going to be Icarium's new body.

- I doubt Icarium is truly gone, as Mappo's storyline needs to end somewhere, or at least have some closure, and the kids have found Icarium's city that holds all of his memories.

- Badalle, as discussed in another thread, was also able to break through to Icarium during the convergence.

- As discussed in this thread, Rutt seems to hold Held as some sort of metaphor of the Snake's past lives that they have utterly left behind.

- Held is going to absorb Icarium's memories, and Icarium's soul, or whatever is left of him, will inhabit Held's body(akin to other events in RotCG). Icarium could then be a god of memory, or of hardship and perseverance.

- Badalle = MS, Rutt = Destriant, Saddic = SA.


</end crazy theory>

[Tattersail_]

 Salk Elan, on 27 November 2009 - 10:11 AM, said:

Maybe that's a silly question, but at first I understood Held to be a baby and it was perfectly acceptable… but as the snake continued, and with all Badalle's philosophising about Rutt's role as the 'head' of the snake, carrying Held to safety or better: to a place where the rules of their former life would apply again, Held became somehow more 'metaphorical' to me.

Besides, if I'm not completely mistaken, we never really 'see' (or 'hear') Held, only the procedure of wrapping it in layers of fabric for sun-protection, which kindled in my mind the vague idea of Held being a dead child, a symbol of the lives, all of these children have lost… and thus the name 'Held' – someone 'protected' (the only one protected) as a focus of all the virtues they once knew (innocence, happiness etc.) and were not going to surrender, however desperate their situation became.

So my simple question: Is Held a real person or not, and if: a living one or something different, since I cannot see how a baby could have survived all the hardships the snake went through, even protected.

Or am Imissing something crucial (which is absolutely possible)?

Held could be all the histories of Kolanse before everything happened? It could be someones diary, or something for the children to cling to when and if they find salvation

[ranman]

As a metaphor it is certainly appropriate, but I think there is something more to Held than just that.

For some reason I thought Held would end up being a KCCM baby, but that makes little sense, I just thought it would be the only kind of baby that might survive the journey. Since "no one loves Held butt Rutt", maybe it's a forksul assail baby? An FA baby might survive and it would be plausible.

[ShadowRaven]

I remember someone on the forums presenting a theory that Held might actually be a part of the Crippled God. This seems like a plausible option to me since the ritual the FA are performing in Kolanse was stated to require a lot of blood, and them herding thousands of children to a place of power all the while slowly slaying them along the way would certainly fit the bill. The way I understood things was that the FA intentionally held back while the snake proceeded and only prepared to strike once they were close to Icarias, which means they had a purpose for doing so. Maybe they would have been unable/unwilling to touch a part of the Crippled God themselves (since they consider themselves the only non-flawed race which has the right to judge others)? It seems really implausible that the FA could not catch up with the snake if they really wanted to.

[iRFNA]

Held's only purpose is to get carried all that way then get stabbed with tavore's maelblade!

[Nemorensis]

 iRFNA, on 10 September 2010 - 05:14 AM, said:

Held's only purpose is to get carried all that way then get stabbed with tavore's maelblade!

A child getting stabbed for a metaphysical purpose was already done with Kettle. I would be somewhat dismayed if we get that again. But then again I am reminded of the "Children are dying." dialogue between Duiker(?) and Bult. Hohumm.

[Glory Goat]

I wondered if Held was dead but then I assumed they'd make some mention of whacking it on the barbie for noms.

I then wondered if it was a Fuzzy Eresdur baby, but then I figure the Eres isn't that cruel to her Trullspawn...

Eh. Right now its more in my mind as the zombie baby from Dawn of the Dead that everyone craps their pants over and then seriously questions Mehki Phifer's goods.

[Tattersail_]

just started re reading DoD and it does state that Held is a baby. So even if it was a metaphor, it would be the name as the metaphor not the object. The object here seem to be very much a baby.