[Tehol]

Quote

"No Holds, you see? Each one is unaligned, all of them are unaligned." - Breath (Feather Witch) DoD p.334

No Holds.... no groups. No Houses... such as Chains, High House Dark etc.... First there was wandering.... then holds, then houses.... what happens when you have houses? You get towns... cities... and in those environments you get... coins.

Quote

Breath was casting her tiles, which were no longer tiles, but coins, glittering and bright... - (DoD p.628)

So we know that they are coins... and that they are all unaligned (as a coin should be... a currency for good or ill)...

I have listed the coins here in the order that Breath (Feather Witch) listed them. You will note that what Feather Witch described as being on the 'flip side' I have described as being either Heads or Tails - as befitting the lingo of coins.

I have also listed who I speculate is the 'God' of the corresponding coin or face. Feel free to discuss or copy the list and put in your own speculations. I do not think we have necessarily met all of the pantheon yet, either. Lots of assumptions and guesses... I have also included a number of quotes... these are not offered as 'proof', rather, as flavour - or a lead to a larger section of text that contains more hints... the page numbers are from the Bantam large soft cover.


So here they are:

The Old ones remade:

Chance - heads > Fortune -
Chance - tails > Misfortune -

Heads > Rule - Rutt - She watched Rutt. He was the head of the snake. He was the fangs, too, but that last bit was for her alone, her private joke. - Badalle (DoD p.2)
Tails > Ambition - Held - Rutt who is not Rutt, and Held who cannot be held. - Badalle (DoD p.880)

Heads > Life - Saddic - Beside them stood Saddic, watching, remembering. His enemy was dust. (DoD p.565)
Tails > Death - Silverfox?

Heads > Light - Setoc
Her eyes snapped to the boy. 'He summoned it. With that nonsense song, he sumoned it.
Can - can I do the same? What is this boy to me? What is being made here?
...
I can't level cities.
Can I?' - Setoc, speaking of Absi. (DoD p.575)
Tails > Dark - Absi Kire (Son of Tool & Hetan) - The child had a secret name, and it was written in elusive, impermanent games of light and dark... (DoD p.504)

Heads > Fire - Sinn - 'At Y'Ghatan, where I found the fire that I took inside me, that now burns on and on like my very own sun.' Sinn (DoD p.446)
Tails > Water -

Heads > Air -Badalle - the power of words, essentially breath, air - and also the way she can (could) fly.
Tails > Stone - Grubb - 'Grubb gestured. The ground lifted suddenly into the fire's path... ...'It dosn't matter, Grub,' <Sinn> said. 'You and me - we're different' (DoD p.447)

The New ones:

Heads > Fury - Jade Statues - Just a thought... I will elaborate another time... 'Fury is just what it says. Blind, a destroyer of everything.' Breath (DoD p. 334)
Tails > Starwheel - Eres'al - 'Starwheel, that's time but unravelled... You won't see Starwheel in the castings. You'll just see Fury.' Breath (DoD p. 334)

Heads > Root - The Errant's Eye / Azath - His <Icarium's> hand closed about the eye and he heard the shriek of an Elder God, as he transformed the eye into what he needed. For Root. (DoD p.880)
Tails > Ice Haunt - TBA

Heads > Blueiron - Sulkit - 'No!' retorted Taxillian. 'We must let this happen - I feel it - in what the drone does we will find our salvation.' (DoD p.611)
Tails > Oblivion - Icarium - 'I am awake - no. I am... reborn.' - Icarium Lifestealer (DoD p.631)

This post has been edited by Tehol: 26 November 2009 - 09:15 AM

[Tehol]

Here is the list again, without all the quotes.


Heads > Chance / Fortune -
Tails > Chance / Misfortune -

Heads > Rule - Rutt
Tails > Ambition - Held

Heads > Life - Saddic
Tails > Death - Silverfox?

Heads > Light - Setoc
Tails > Dark - Absi Kire

Heads > Fire - Sinn
Tails > Water -

Heads > Air -Badalle
Tails > Stone - Grubb



Heads > Fury - Jade Statues
Tails > Starwheel - Eres'al

Heads > Root - The Errant's Eye / Azath
Tails > Ice Haunt - TBA

Heads > Blueiron - Sulkit
Tails > Oblivion - Icarium

[Sinisdar Toste]

thats an impressive rundown Tehol. if this is a pantheon though, are you saying that the jade statues are new gods? or are "they just holding an aspect? do each of these people named rule their corresponding "coins" or are they just the first to use them?

i wonder if maybe sinn and grub were successful in realigning the new and old warrens so that maybe now all mages can learn the new passwords. would sinn and grubb then become figures of worship somehow?? wow lots to think on here, kudos

[Leigh1992]

thats quite impressive ground work there for all that.
Seeing how the tiles were replaced by the deck of dragons - and the title holders in the deck of dragons change constantly apart from a few, i s'pose we can assume that the "owners" of these new tiles will also change according to who best siuts the role at the time. things like starwheel would probably not change though seeing how the Eres'al is the only being that can travel through time.
nice work though.

[Powder]

Just because we have a new pantheon does not mean the Old will cease to exist. Up till this point we still see wanderings within Dragnipur, the holds in Letheras, and the deck on Quon Tali, Genibakis, and Seven Cities, and presumeably Korel. What is left on Jakuraku, Assail? We don't really know. It seems to me that warrens build up like cities do in MBotF. One layer upon the next. So, while this list is exhaustive for the moment, how long will it be before we see expansion? I am curious to see who fills the rolls, and how much crossover there is between the new and the old.

[A friendly Jaghut]

Wow.
Its interesting to see you refer to the coins as the 'grandchildren' pantheon, and that's mostly reflected in the age and power of the characters you've assigned to coins.
But some of them, like Eres'al, and the Jade Statues, don't seem to fit with this. as to me they are far more suited to the Elder ages.
I'd really like to hear your theories/explanations as to why.
I hope you don't see this as me attacking you or anything, cos I think you've done a really great job.

[Tehol]

@ Powder

I agree - I think all pantheons will exist at the same time - like a city, as you describe, which also mirrors the act of civilization... Wandering , holds, houses... Wall street? And with each new develoment the old exists side-by-side.

@ Friendly Jaghut

I am not sure, everything is a guess, but I think the Eres'al is part of the new purely because she represents birthing and the seeding of all time... And that time in it's linear sense no longer exists, it is now all time at once, therefore the Eres'al is the eternal child and mother both.

The Jade Statues... is a little more complex, but basically, I am of the opinion that they are gods hunting down the CG. As such, their entry into Wu will mean that they are essentially birthed into this realm for the first time. So, ancient beings reborn into Wu. I could be barking up the wrong tree entirely, mind you. All guess work... it follows the line of thought that the CG would technically be an Elder, but due to his time of arrival etc has been endorsed into the houses... The children of K'rul.


The Master of the Coins, anyone?

Crokus lol....

Tehol!!!! Hehe

[Silencer]

Bringing up Tehol makes an interesting point. Given that this new version of the deck was born on Letheras, where money and debt has ruled for a long time, but is just now being torn down by the new King...and I believe there was a quote about how despite him, it won't make any difference in the long run, regarding the direction of Letheras and it's focus on monetary bonds.

Which also raises the question. Each new formation of power has been an attempt at imposing order. Wandering is bound to a central home in the holds. The home becomes more self-contained and less exposed in the Houses...but also more welcoming. With more 'feel' if you will. Elders are cold and remote, yes? But coins...coins are the least emotional objects yet. True, they represent a new 'peak' of civilisation, beyond homes, houses, and so forth. As you pointed out in the first post, Tehol, they are all unaligned. Which is a interesting new turn indeed, given that you think about how remote coins are - they pass from hand to hand, are hoarded(!), and so forth...but each individual one is never really cared for, never personal...the only thing you might feel is desire for more, or fear of losing them...

Moreover, Errastas claims to have created the twins Oponn, and yet their representation is as a coin, more often than not - see the coin in GotM. True, they often play with chance using knuckle bones...but they themselves are still represented as a two-faced coin, ever spinning. The precursors to this new system? After all, Oponn is unaligned too...and so we see the aspect of Chance as remade into the new system.

Gah, lots to think about. But remember also, that what is new, is assailed. A part of me suspects this new pantheon, this new system, won't even last to the end of TCG. Destroyed in its birth. Either because the CG likes it, or because it is caught up in the current gods' anger.
Then again, perhaps it will be all that is left after the conclusion of the MBotF sequence...who knows.

[HoosierDaddy]

Sorry, don't see those as a new "Pantheon." If anything, the Pantheon evolves.

Those are the names of the Warrens Icarium created in an attempt to bring order to his chaos, in his attempt to copy K'rul's original bargain with the Eleint. That's why Sinn and Grub were such badasses at the end of DoD, they were masters of all of those warrens after having traveled through Icarium's path of making them.

If anything, you see yet another birth of Icarium as a God, with those following his newer warrens as his "worshippers." However, as was stated, the spread of those warrens was local, and has not pushed through a new Pantheon. The Deck is still the main balance of power in Wu, with Ganoes as its master. Even with the Holds in place in Letheras, having been battered by Icarium's creation of newer Warrens, the Deck of Dragons being opened in Letheras for a read pummeled the Errant. The same Errant that is attempting to reinstall the Holds as the preeminent means of Order in the world.

No. Perhaps an adjusted Pantheon, but no "new" Pantheon at all.

Do you not understand the reasoning behind the names Feather Witch gives those newer Warrens? They are all paramount to Icarium, no one else:

Fury - Icarium's uncontrollable rage.
Starwheel - Icarium being lost in time.

Root - The Chaos infection from attempting to free his father, Gothos.
Ice Haunt - He is Jhag, and can control Omtose Phellack, as Kalse Uprooted blasting the shit out of Skykeeps makes obvious.

Blueiron - He is the maker of machines.
Oblivion - He is the Lifeslayer.

No, not a birth of a new Pantheon, or at least not evidenced by that. It's all about Icarium, there.

Edit: It is a novel idea, though, and a well put together theory.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 27 November 2009 - 05:52 AM

[Tehol]

HoosierDaddy, on 27 November 2009 - 05:50 AM, said:

Sorry, don't see those as a new "Pantheon." If anything, the Pantheon evolves.

Those are the names of the Warrens Icarium created in an attempt to bring order to his chaos, in his attempt to copy K'rul's original bargain with the Eleint. That's why Sinn and Grub were such badasses at the end of DoD, they were masters of all of those warrens after having traveled through Icarium's path of making them.

If anything, you see yet another birth of Icarium as a God, with those following his newer warrens as his "worshippers." However, as was stated, the spread of those warrens was local, and has not pushed through a new Pantheon. The Deck is still the main balance of power in Wu, with Ganoes as its master. Even with the Holds in place in Letheras, having been battered by Icarium's creation of newer Warrens, the Deck of Dragons being opened in Letheras for a read pummeled the Errant. The same Errant that is attempting to reinstall the Holds as the preeminent means of Order in the world.

No. Perhaps an adjusted Pantheon, but no "new" Pantheon at all.

Do you not understand the reasoning behind the names Feather Witch gives those newer Warrens? They are all paramount to Icarium, no one else:

Fury - Icarium's uncontrollable rage.
Starwheel - Icarium being lost in time.

Root - The Chaos infection from attempting to free his father, Gothos.
Ice Haunt - He is Jhag, and can control Omtose Phellack, as Kalse Uprooted blasting the shit out of Skykeeps makes obvious.

Blueiron - He is the maker of machines.
Oblivion - He is the Lifeslayer.

No, not a birth of a new Pantheon, or at least not evidenced by that. It's all about Icarium, there.

Edit: It is a novel idea, though, and a well put together theory.

Ya, just theory-crafting.... however, I would like to debate some of the points you make...

1) The meaning of Pantheon

pan·the·on (pnth-n, -n)
n.
1. Pantheon A circular temple in Rome, completed in 27 b.c. and dedicated to all the gods.
2. A temple dedicated to all gods.
3. All the gods of a people considered as a group: Jupiter is head of the Roman pantheon.
4. A public building commemorating and dedicated to the heroes and heroines of a nation.
5. A group of persons most highly regarded for contributions to a field or endeavor:

I am using the word Pantheon with this understanding - a new group of gods, belonging to the people of Wu. It does not exclude the older Pantheons. If it is an incorrect use of the word, apologies, as I meant it as a group - amongst other groups.


2) K'rull, an Elder God, created the Warrens in his blood. Through these warrens were spawned the Houses and the 'Children' of the Elder Gods. In Icarium's efforts to copy what K'rull did, he has succeeded to a certain extent - all indications from the book are that these new warrens exist, but are somehow broken or wrong. As you say, Sinn and Grubb are the first explorers of these warrens (alongside the ghosts inside of Icarium such as Feather Witch et al.).


3) I do understand the meaning of the names Feather Witch uses and their relationship to Icarium - the point is that he is the equivalent of K'rul in this respect - so the warrens inside of him, the new ones especially, are all in some way aspected to him, in the same way that all of the warrens inside K'rul are aspected to K'rul.
In addition, consider this quote, in relation to Root. If Root was purely a result of Icarium's past relationship to chaos from attempting to free Gothos... then why this:

Quote

His <Icarium's> hand closed about the eye and he heard the shriek of an Elder God, as he transformed the eye into what he needed. For Root. (DoD p.880)

Note that it is not "a root" - it is "Root".

4) I agree it is all about Icarium - though I think that that very comment implies a new, far more vast understanding of Icarium is evolving in the books. He is bomb. And so a new pantheon of gods, as set out in the theory, is being spawned through his actions. It was, after all, his intent (to create a new system).

Icarium's own plan, within all this - was to trap himself outside of time, as the fulcrum of the system, in order to prevent himself from destroying everything.


5) and yes - the Deck is still the dominant power in Wu - no doubt - but hey - everything is changing, the game is afoot, and who knows where it will all go...



thanks for engaging in the theory - has been fun thinking about it all

[HoosierDaddy]

Tehol, on 27 November 2009 - 06:48 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 27 November 2009 - 05:50 AM, said:

Sorry, don't see those as a new "Pantheon." If anything, the Pantheon evolves.

Those are the names of the Warrens Icarium created in an attempt to bring order to his chaos, in his attempt to copy K'rul's original bargain with the Eleint. That's why Sinn and Grub were such badasses at the end of DoD, they were masters of all of those warrens after having traveled through Icarium's path of making them.

If anything, you see yet another birth of Icarium as a God, with those following his newer warrens as his "worshippers." However, as was stated, the spread of those warrens was local, and has not pushed through a new Pantheon. The Deck is still the main balance of power in Wu, with Ganoes as its master. Even with the Holds in place in Letheras, having been battered by Icarium's creation of newer Warrens, the Deck of Dragons being opened in Letheras for a read pummeled the Errant. The same Errant that is attempting to reinstall the Holds as the preeminent means of Order in the world.

No. Perhaps an adjusted Pantheon, but no "new" Pantheon at all.

Do you not understand the reasoning behind the names Feather Witch gives those newer Warrens? They are all paramount to Icarium, no one else:

Fury - Icarium's uncontrollable rage.
Starwheel - Icarium being lost in time.

Root - The Chaos infection from attempting to free his father, Gothos.
Ice Haunt - He is Jhag, and can control Omtose Phellack, as Kalse Uprooted blasting the shit out of Skykeeps makes obvious.

Blueiron - He is the maker of machines.
Oblivion - He is the Lifeslayer.

No, not a birth of a new Pantheon, or at least not evidenced by that. It's all about Icarium, there.

Edit: It is a novel idea, though, and a well put together theory.

Ya, just theory-crafting.... however, I would like to debate some of the points you make...

1) The meaning of Pantheon

pan·the·on (pnth-n, -n)
n.
1. Pantheon A circular temple in Rome, completed in 27 b.c. and dedicated to all the gods.
2. A temple dedicated to all gods.
3. All the gods of a people considered as a group: Jupiter is head of the Roman pantheon.
4. A public building commemorating and dedicated to the heroes and heroines of a nation.
5. A group of persons most highly regarded for contributions to a field or endeavor:

I am using the word Pantheon with this understanding - a new group of gods, belonging to the people of Wu. It does not exclude the older Pantheons. If it is an incorrect use of the word, apologies, as I meant it as a group - amongst other groups.

Okay, then it was a semantic disagreement, then. Your "new" was simply an "evolved = different and therefore: new."

Quote

2) K'rull, an Elder God, created the Warrens in his blood. Through these warrens were spawned the Houses and the 'Children' of the Elder Gods. In Icarium's efforts to copy what K'rull did, he has succeeded to a certain extent - all indications from the book are that these new warrens exist, but are somehow broken or wrong. As you say, Sinn and Grubb are the first explorers of these warrens (alongside the ghosts inside of Icarium such as Feather Witch et al.).

No "Children of Elder Gods" here. High House Dark & Light retain Mother Dark and Father lights as the Elder and dominant factions. High House Death is run by a Jaghut, who was contemporaneous with K'rul's bargain as far as we can tell. So, I'd disagree to that statement about the 'Children' as you call them.

Quote

3) I do understand the meaning of the names Feather Witch uses and their relationship to Icarium - the point is that he is the equivalent of K'rul in this respect - so the warrens inside of him, the new ones especially, are all in some way aspected to him, in the same way that all of the warrens inside K'rul are aspected to K'rul.
In addition, consider this quote, in relation to Root. If Root was purely a result of Icarium's past relationship to chaos from attempting to free Gothos... then why this:

Quote

His <Icarium's> hand closed about the eye and he heard the shriek of an Elder God, as he transformed the eye into what he needed. For Root. (DoD p.880)

Note that it is not "a root" - it is "Root".

Because it is the Errant's eye that is the "Finnest" of the new Azath? Straightforward connection there.

Quote

4) I agree it is all about Icarium - though I think that that very comment implies a new, far more vast understanding of Icarium is evolving in the books. He is bomb. And so a new pantheon of gods, as set out in the theory, is being spawned through his actions. It was, after all, his intent (to create a new system).

Icarium's own plan, within all this - was to trap himself outside of time, as the fulcrum of the system, in order to prevent himself from destroying everything.

No, it was Icarium's will to trap himself, finally IN A TIME, that caused his attempt to try new Warrens. He wasn't attempting to create a new system of Order. He was trying to end his own misery at not knowing his own past. Your opinion is okay, but I feel mine is more validated by the books. Thus, the characters that attempt to draw his own disparate parts into himself. Thus the new Warrens. It was meant to cure his disability, not refine the magical system and thus the world.

Quote

5) and yes - the Deck is still the dominant power in Wu - no doubt - but hey - everything is changing, the game is afoot, and who knows where it will all go...

Not everything is changing. If so, why create a Master of the Deck to help balance the massive upheaval in the current Pantheon, if in reality a new one is about to be born? What we are seeing is a WAR amongst the Pantheon, and yes, there is upheaval during a war. That doesn't mean that it is a Revolution, as to what you are saying.

Quote

thanks for engaging in the theory - has been fun thinking about it all

No problem, I like talking about this stuff, too. Obviously.

[Tehol]

HoosierDaddy, on 27 November 2009 - 07:06 AM, said:

Quote

2) K'rull, an Elder God, created the Warrens in his blood. Through these warrens were spawned the Houses and the 'Children' of the Elder Gods. In Icarium's efforts to copy what K'rull did, he has succeeded to a certain extent - all indications from the book are that these new warrens exist, but are somehow broken or wrong. As you say, Sinn and Grubb are the first explorers of these warrens (alongside the ghosts inside of Icarium such as Feather Witch et al.).

No "Children of Elder Gods" here. High House Dark & Light retain Mother Dark and Father lights as the Elder and dominant factions. High House Death is run by a Jaghut, who was contemporaneous with K'rul's bargain as far as we can tell. So, I'd disagree to that statement about the 'Children' as you call them.

Not as I have called them - as Erikson, through the Elder gods themselves, have called them...

(DoD p.531) said:

(Mael, speaking to the Errant:) "You would devour our children, but even that desire proves that you have lost touch, that you - we, all of us here - are nothing more than the spent forces of history. Errant, our children have grown up. Do you understand the significance of that?"
"What stupitiy are you –"
"Old enough," cut in Sechul Lath, all at once comprehending, "to have children of their own" Abyss below!

'Children' as a term is used in a relative sense, not children of natural descent, but children as inheritors of power... as ones that come after...

In terms of High House Dark / Light - they are just Houses - nowhere does Erikson state that MD of FL are the actual 'leaders' or 'Godheads' of those Houses. Of course there are myriad connections to, and derivations from, MD and FL as originators of those forms of energy - but in terms of the Warrens,they are seperate and distinct from Kurald Galain / Kurald Liosan, in the same way as Meanas is distinct from Kurald Emurhlan, though undoubtedly connected.

Hood, a contemporary of K'rul, none-the-less ascended to his position as Lord of Death after the Elder Gods had become Elder Gods (Draconus, K'rul, Mael etc), and so Hood can be seen as an inheitor of power, a child of the Elder Gods, just as Amanas, thousands of years later, can also be seen as an inheritor of Elder power, and thus another 'child' of the Elder Gods.

HoosierDaddy, on 27 November 2009 - 07:06 AM, said:

No, it was Icarium's will to trap himself, finally IN A TIME, that caused his attempt to try new Warrens. He wasn't attempting to create a new system of Order. He was trying to end his own misery at not knowing his own past. Your opinion is okay, but I feel mine is more validated by the books. Thus, the characters that attempt to draw his own disparate parts into himself. Thus the new Warrens. It was meant to cure his disability, not refine the magical system and thus the world.

I am happy to concede that your opinion is more validated, as I was just speaking from memory.
I will however be reading back through some sections and providing some more quotes that may indicate other ways of seeing this....
For example - you have said "He was trying to end his own misery at not knowing his own past." which is not quite the case - it is more to 'know himself completely' - on a number of occasions we have seen Icarium recall to his horror the destruction he has wrought in the past. Building all those machines would seem an extravagant way to try to remember ones past.... especially when you consider each time Icarium has recalled his past he has been appalled, and wanted to somehow prevent himself from doing so again. He wants to put the pieces together, for sure. His rage and his memory loss are bound together.

And I do not think he was trying to create a 'new system of order' as you say - but it is certain that he was attempting to emulate K'rul - and as such, inevitably, create a new 'system' (of magic / time / warrens / speculation).

from Reapers Gale, p.872 said:

I built this machine. This place that will forge my beginning. No longer outside the world. No longer outside time itself. Give me this, wounded or not, give me this. If K'rul can, why not me?

HoosierDaddy, on 27 November 2009 - 07:06 AM, said:

Not everything is changing. If so, why create a Master of the Deck to help balance the massive upheaval in the current Pantheon, if in reality a new one is about to be born? What we are seeing is a WAR amongst the Pantheon, and yes, there is upheaval during a war. That doesn't mean that it is a Revolution, as to what you are saying.

Ah, everything is always changing.... isn't it? The only constant is change. I never said it was a revolution - the 'grandchildren' theory, as with the new Coins, merely extends the war and upheval already occurring, but in a new, and possibly unpredictable, way.

One last quote....

DoD p.879-880 said:

Feather Witch hissed, 'Root and Blueiron, Lifestealer! Ice Haunt is not enough! You must awaken the warrens within you! Root to the rock and earth. Blueiron to hold life in your machines. Command the breach!'
'I cannot hold. I am dying.'
'There are children in the world, Icarium.'
'Asane? You do not understand. You are not enough-'
'There are children in the world. The warrens you have made from your own blood-'
Feather Witch snarled. 'Our blood!'
'And ours, yes. The warrens, Icarium - did you imagine they belonged to you and none other? It is too late for that. This day is the day of fire, Icarium. The children wait. The children hear.'
In his mind, even as it crumbled on all sides, he could hear a new voice, a sweet voice, one that he had never heard before.'

I dream we are three
Rutt who is not Rutt and Held
Who cannot be held -
The girl knows silence
Is a game
The boy knows the kiss
Of the Eres'al
The mother of wheeling stars
Who seeds all time
Through me they hear your need
I am the voice of the unborn
In crystal I see fire and I see smoke
I see lizards and Fathers
In crystal I see the boy and the girl.
Heal the wound, God,
Your children are close -'

Rautos whispered - the last words Icarium would remember. 'Icarium, in the name of a blessed wife.... have faith.'
Faith. He took hold of that word.
His hand closed about the eye and he heard the shriek of an Elder God, as he transformed the eye into what he needed. For Root.
A seed.
A Finnest.

So he needed the Finnest for Root. For the new warren Root. A warren rooted, so to speak, in an Azath - making use of an Azath.

This post has been edited by Tehol: 27 November 2009 - 09:14 AM

[Tehol]

Silencer, on 27 November 2009 - 04:51 AM, said:

Moreover, Errastas claims to have created the twins Oponn, and yet their representation is as a coin, more often than not - see the coin in GotM. True, they often play with chance using knuckle bones...but they themselves are still represented as a two-faced coin, ever spinning. The precursors to this new system? After all, Oponn is unaligned too...and so we see the aspect of Chance as remade into the new system.

hey Silencer, thanks for all your thoughts, I agree... except in the above quote I think you mean Sechul Lath (Knuckles) not Errastas (Throne).

[Silencer]

Hehe, yeah, I was thinking I was wrong, and half-deleted Errastas, but then changed my mind back. XD

[Torrud Segul]

wasnt Icarium's memory healed by the Eres'al? just after his fight with QB. hence why when Veed tries to tell him a second time who is and why he's there iccy says its not neccessary, he knows

[Epiph]

Not his memory. His rage.

[the Dragon Reborn]

Tehol, on 26 November 2009 - 09:02 AM, said:

Here is the list again, without all the quotes.


Heads > Chance / Fortune -
Tails > Chance / Misfortune -

Heads > Rule - Rutt
Tails > Ambition - Held

Heads > Life - Saddic
Tails > Death - Silverfox?

Heads > Light - Setoc
Tails > Dark - Absi Kire

Heads > Fire - Sinn
Tails > Water -

Heads > Air -Badalle
Tails > Stone - Grubb



Heads > Fury - Jade Statues
Tails > Starwheel - Eres'al

Heads > Root - The Errant's Eye / Azath
Tails > Ice Haunt - TBA

Heads > Blueiron - Sulkit
Tails > Oblivion - Icarium

Good Work, i would disagree with you on a couple of your choices though...
I think that instead of Silverfox for death, i would either go with a.)Iskar Jarak or b.)Redeemer
Im not sure about your choice for light and dark. I dont really remember all that much about Setoc, so you could have got that one right on, However Absi Kire's name is written in the play between light and dark, i.e. shadow (at least thats how i read it) I think he will be the one to oust shadowthrone and remake Emurlahn (crazy theory, no proof)... But you could be right.
Jade Statues should be replaced by Heboric. Statues can't be gods, can they?(not rheotorical) Will never see the Jade Statues until its too late, hence that side never lands up in a reading.
I dont know that an eye can be a god either, i would go with the guy who built the Azath in Starvald Demelain... (prolly wrong) or Gothos (Because Finally the Azath are recognized in a system? with Gothos as their rep?).
Give chance to Oppon who will finally allign with the new "house"...

Also, i would call the new "houses" something like "banks", Where the coins are kept. Those with the power over coins, instead of cities. I liked your idea of it evolving, but i would take it more in a first there was wandering, then there were holds, then houses (as a representation of towns/cities), then banks (representation of nations). The development of coins doesn't necesarilly come about with cities because a barter system can still be used, however with the rise of nations an economy is needed. (of course, I could be way overthinking this...)

HoosierDaddy, on 27 November 2009 - 05:50 AM, said:

Sorry, don't see those as a new "Pantheon." If anything, the Pantheon evolves.

I disagree and think that if a new pantheon does come about, it will be the rival pantheon for Letheras (What Gothos Froze). First you had Wandering, then holds, then houses (made by K'rul) but not everywhere, Gothos blocked it. Now with what Icarium does a new evolution of the holds comes about, they will become the 'houses' for the continent of Letheras.

Also the existence of warrens didn't necessarily mean the emergence of a pantheon. People/Ascendants had to "take control" of a warren, and fashion for themselves a house which, most likely, then needed the approval of a Master of the Deck (i think everytime that a new house seeks admittance into the deck, a master is 'born' to either accept or deny). That is why there is no High House Sky or High House Fire or High House Earth, because nobody has taken control (sat on the throne) of those warrens. The existence of new warrens doesn't guarentee that there is going to be a new pantheon, only opens the door to those who would use the new warrens to create for themselves a place.

Note: I dont think MD and FL are king/queen of their respective houses. Rake is Knight, and Osseric is Champion. Nowhere in the books is MD or FL mentioned/confirmed as being "heads of their houses"

[Blueiron]

Awesome! I'd always thought of Starwheel and Fury as two sides of Icarium, but I like your theory better. I really liked the bits with the new warrens (hence my name), and I can't belive I never noticed that the damn things were coins before
Keep up the good work, Tehol!

[Abyss]

There are three things at work here:

Coins as divination tools, in the sense of the Deck of Dragons or the Tiles, giving a sense of order to the higher powers to predict influences.

New warrens, essentially derived from Icarium's various aspects, but influenced by the KC mechanisms, the Letheri souls, and the Errant's eyeball to various extents.

And NO new pantheon, at least not yet. No gods are aspected to these new warrens. Some humans or ascendents, maybe, but no gods. Aside from Icarium, but his role remains to be seen. There are no 'gods' in this new set in the sense that there are in the Houses pantheon. No Mother Dark sitting over any Dark aspected gods and ascendents. No Osserc or Father Light sitting as 'King' over all things Light. So no gods.

Iccy's new warrens represent 'elemental' points that for the most part are derived from him. The coin element is due to the Letherii influence, and Iccy's power rushing in to fill the gap when Gothos' Ritual faded and Leth was 'open'. The Malazan warrens were coming into effect but not entirely installed when Iccy opened a vein, his machine misfired and things went a bit nuts.

Someone somewhere speculates that the new warrens wouldn't last, but the Root taking hold and a new Azath coming into being on the continent may have changed that.

Interesting...

[Tattersail_]

Tehol, on 26 November 2009 - 09:02 AM, said:

Here is the list again, without all the quotes.


Heads > Chance / Fortune -
Tails > Chance / Misfortune -

Heads > Rule - Rutt
Tails > Ambition - Held

Heads > Life - Saddic
Tails > Death - Silverfox?

Heads > Light - Setoc
Tails > Dark - Absi Kire

Heads > Fire - Sinn
Tails > Water -

Heads > Air -Badalle
Tails > Stone - Grubb



Heads > Fury - Jade Statues
Tails > Starwheel - Eres'al

Heads > Root - The Errant's Eye / Azath
Tails > Ice Haunt - TBA

Heads > Blueiron - Sulkit
Tails > Oblivion - Icarium

Water = Mael? Mallick Rel? The Mage of Ruse from Stoneweilder?